| Author | Message | ||
     Dave_bogue |
"The 1125R moves Buell into an arena that absolutely requires significant annual changes; there is nothing older in the sportbike world than last year's model. To date, Buell has gotten away with evolutionary changes only because it has not played in a truly competitive market. Most emphatically, this is no longer the case." I disagree. The 1125R was not designed to compete in the same market as the Japanese race-replica liter bikes (R1, ZX-10R, CBR1000, and GSXR1000). The Japanese will continue to update their race-replicas every two years and compete against each other. On the other hand, the new 1125R will evolve per Buell company tradition. Additional models with the Buell/Rotax engine and frame will be marketed. A Lightning with relaxed ergonomics will probably be introduced as a 2009 model. The 1125R is a niche bike; it will appeal to a different type of owner than the average Japanese sportbike buyer. For sheer horsepower, the Rotax V2 is already at a considerable disadvantage to the I-4s, but it will offer a wide and usable powerband that street riders will enjoy. I predict that the 1125 and it's various iterations will be a sales success. And, when it's time for a performance upgrade, the engine's displacement will be made larger, in time honored V twin fashion. Dave | ||
| Regkittrelle |
And, if it stays that course, Dave, it will fail. Furthermore, if the 1125R platform fails, the company will fail. The Mothership has no desire to maintain Buell as a niche market. That it's been one was not by design. Buell must begin contributing significantly to the bottom line. It has not been able to do so with the current line up. The 1125R represents a necessary step... and it's a good one. However, Buell will have to play by the market's rules, not by Harley's. Buell understand's this; I'm not sure that harley does. Buell has tried mightily to interest the buying public in motorcycles that it can use, rather than ones it thinks it needs. (You can give a nurse sensible shoes, but she'll still want Manolos.)The to-date XBs are very good motorcycles, but hardly cause a ripple in the overall picture. Interestingly, Buell's second best chance in the marketplace is the Ulysses. We can discuss this ad nauseum; it's simpler to just review Harley's annual report. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I understand what you are saying Reg, but as one possible consumer, I'm getting older and paying more attention now. I see "brand new versions" of these bikes pop up every few years, but they all appear to come out of the same little incestuous little cookie cutter. What has *really* broken ground in sportbikes in the last 10 years? * Turn the forks upside down? * Coat them with Diamond Like Carbon (except now they don't)? * Radial Brakes (which are still inferior to ZTL 2 in terms of what radial brakes are supposed to be buying you)? * Moving the exhaust under the bike? * LED Turn signals? * Fuel injection systems that "don't suck as much"? * Slipper clutches? Seems like the 1125R as it stands today is already 5 to 10 years ahead of them. 7 pounds less unsprung mass on the front wheel, maybe 3 pounds less rotational mass. Emissions systems that do not require a Cat. Dry sump motor. Finger follower cams. Zero lash drivetrain. *Real* areodynamics instead of arbitrary styling excercises. Zero maintenance final drive. "Crashworthy" integrated frame sliders from the factory. Obviously nobody knows what "the next big thing" in sportbike evolution will be that will drive every 19 year old on the planet to reject great 1 year old motorcycles out of hand... but had a japanese company done any one of the 3 or 4 radical improvements the 1125 brought to the table, it would have been the most radical change the Japanese bikes have seen since fuel injection. This is all IMHO, I am just a lightly educated interested consumer. But I wonder if the "bold new changes for the new model year inline four hyperbike" will start to hold even less water now that there is genuinely something different (both the 1125R and the 1098) to compare it with. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Reep... There's more than a bit in your post that I could agree with. At the same time, a bunch that I don't. Our biggest disagreement is the "5 to 10 years ahead of them." To begin with, at best that is conjecture insomuch as we only have Buell's paper potential to deal with. Additionally, that statement begs for context. Is Buell "ahead of them" by virtue of it's appeal to you? Then, good, you've found your bike. Or is it "ahead of them" meaning the GSX1000R, R1, etc? If that's the case, Buell has some work to do if it's to topple the performance crown from those heads. I'm not a fan of IL4s, but I respect them highly. And I certainly accord them more credibility than you. I applaud Buell's innovations; many are valid, some are of a questionable nature,IMO. In particular, I'm not yet convinced that ZTL brakes are superior; certainly good, but we'll see about the superior thing. The 1125R has tremendous potential to be a force in the marketplace, but it's a little too soon to declare it superior to anything. And, btw, it does require a "cat." The glowing reports coming from the Laguna experience indicate that Buell's on the right track, but 6 to 8 months from now will really tell the story. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You are dead on... and actually, the inline four hyperbikes and the 1125R are both in the same category for me... I really respect them, I am amazed with what they have managed to accomplish, and I am nowhere near interested in buying any of them. My "ahead of them" was a judgement just based on "would Cycle World give it a splash page" and media buzz with a tagline "radical new...". If it really works is a whole 'nother question... I still don't understand what the big deal is about Radial brakes, and they got no end of press. And I live in Ohio. *Your* 1125R will have a catalytic converter, mine wouldn't, and I can't be held responsible for your fellow Californians poor science skills ;) I'm holding out for the Lightning version, hopefully it will be air cooled, 50lbs lighter then my XB9SX, and make 100 HP at the rear wheel. You are right though, I get the funny head tilt every time I read some article talk about the "dated" XB platform. But I have read it a few times already. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Don't blame California on me! I'm holding out for the full-touring version. | ||
| Nondual |
If they made a sport-tourer, I'd be VERY excited. Sheesh! I'm only 32, but a year with an SV650 as my only vehicle has made me long for some creature comforts. | ||
| Jima4media |
The 1125R will probably never be competitive with IL4s on the track, but they will make very nice street bikes. They will make even better Sport-Tourers, with the emphasis on Sport. I can see myself on one. I molded my X-1s into my own version of a sport-tourer. The job would be much easier with a 1125R. The Japanese big four IL4 liter bikes put out in excess of 200RWHP on the track, and I can't see V-Twins doing that reliably or any time soon. I have to agree with Reg though. The dealer side of the equation needs a lot of work in the next 6 months. Jim (Message edited by jima4media on September 01, 2007) | ||
| Court |
>>>Buell understand's this; I'm not sure that harley does. Concur. Dave Gess said it . . . "Harley-Davidson may be running WFO toward a cliff and not know it" I also agree that the Ulysses has not yet realized its potential to advance Buell more toward the mainstream. The Ulysses, in it's current form, has quickly evolved into a competent multi-role product. I'm also noting that as I look at the Ulysses (QUALIFIER: which I have yet to spin an odometer on) I find myself falling victim to intermittent bouts of "with a little bit of this and a little bit of that. . . the 1125r would. . . ) I think the 1125r is a platform that begs to go Sport-Touring and I'm not sure (Reg, having ridden it could provide and early list) it'd take a lot to kinda position it in the role the Blackbird was. The next year, fittingly enough the 25th, sees Buell in a critical, yet great, position. I'd certainly say, bike unridden, that they are being seen more and more as a "real" (vice "boutique" or "niche") company. I still want a BSA 441 Victor . . . so I meet the NYC statutory requirements to claim insanity. Court | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
I still want a BSA 441 Victor . . . so I meet the NYC statutory requirements to claim insanity. And THAT is an accurate statement. | ||
| Milar |
Ok Reg, here's my take on the 1125R and Buells role at HD. I believe HD/Buells target is BMW not Japan. There are just too many similarities between BMW and Buell. 1. BMW marketing avoids going head to head with Japan Inc. They don't play the "spec game." Instead they focus on building brand loyalty, exclusivity and unique engineering like Hassock front ends. HD wrote the book on building brand loyalty. Erik Buells genius is unique engineering. 2. BMW has a line of singles to introduce riders to the brand and "move them up." Buell is coming out with a line of singles. 4. BMW has a line of air/oil cooled twins for the traditionalists and a line of water cooled bikes for everyone else. Buell has a line of air/oil cooled twins for the traditionalists and a line of water cooled bikes for the rest. 5. The Uly was Buells "proof of concept" they could go head to head with BMW's best. The gold standard in it's class. Maybe they didn't hit a bullseye the first time, but they came mighty close. 6. The 1125R is a "rational sportbike" with real world power and comfortable seating. The target is not the GSXR/CBR1000RR. It's the R1200S and maybe the K1200S. 7. After the GS, BMW's 2nd largest selling twin is the RT. With the new 5.6 gallon tank on the 1125R, want to guess what's coming down the Buell pipeline? M | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Milar... An excellent, reasoned approach. There are two other factors at play, however; 1) I don't believe the BMW volume would satisfy HD corp. 2) The BMW demographic (age wise) is not that much better than Harley's. I don't think that Buell is targeting the GSXRs and R1s, per se. But I do believe they lust after that demographic much more so than BMW's. In fact, BMW has been making serious efforts towards wooing younger owners. In a way, Buell is hedging its bet: On one hand they're pushing it as a pure street bike... yet, hang around the Mesa facility, or other testing venues, and you'll see pur sang race replicas being comparatively tested. That the 1125R will expand into a much broader line is a given. This "R" model is the halo bike; it will bring attention to the brand. The money-maker will be the sport tourer. Not only will it sell more units, but its margins will probably be better. If the "R" meets it's sales projections, then we very well might see the sport tourer in '09. I wholeheartedly agree that re the Ulysses, Buell has the GS solidly in its sights.And I personally believe... "Ya ain't seen nuttin yet!" re this model. | ||
| Midknyte |
I'm holding out for the Lightning version, hopefully it will be air cooled... You guys are the funnay. Ya finally get's yer water cooled bike, then you wanna take a step backward... | ||
| Milar |
Reg wrote: >Milar... >An excellent, reasoned approach. Thank you. > There are two other factors at play, however; >1) I don't believe the BMW volume would >satisfy HD corp. BMW sold just over 100,000 bikes last year. Buell sold 12,000. I betcha HD wouldn't kick too hard if Buell had an 800% increase in sales over the next 5-6 years. If that works, then consider going head to head with the Big 4. Once they hit BMW type numbers they could move the line out of HD dealers and into Buell stand alone dealers as BMW is now doing. But you have to have volume to do that. >2) The BMW demographic (age wise) is not >that much better than Harley's. It'll be interesting to see how HD handles this one. If they want a really young buyer they have to go racing and build a competitive 600. Triumph failed and they sell about 35,000 bikes/year. It'll cost HD BIG BUCKS to compete in that market. If they do, it won't be until they hit 50,000 bikes a year or so in sales and can justify the investment. They probably also need stand alone dealers who know how to sell to the younger crowd. M | ||
| Regkittrelle |
...and we know where Buell's racing efforts got them, not to mention Harley's. What all this says, Milar, it that for people interested in the the machinations of the motorcycle industry the next couple of years will prove to be interesting. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Comparing the 1125R to the Blackbird caught my attention. The XX was never really popular in the US, but those that fell for it fell hard and most remain rabid fans of the platform. I hope you're right Court. | ||
| Court |
>>>>but its margins will probably be better. And they will pale in comparison to what a comprehensive catalog of sport touring accessories would fetch. I see this thing as Reg and I enter our sunset years, as providing us with a killer touring bike at JUST the right time. Gone, but not forgotten, are the days of riding on the handlebars! | ||
| Gregtonn |
"I still want a BSA 441 Victor . . ." I had a college roommate that had one. He described it perfectly..."Cool bike but it runs like a three legged dog". | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Sunset Years?! | ||
| Gregtonn |
No kidding! He's younger than either of us. "You don't quit ridin' 'cause you get old. You get old because you quit ridin'." I don't remember who said it (Oldtimers Disease) but he was right. Greg | ||
| Mickc |
Its nice to see you "old guys" still trying to direct the best way for Eric to get the sales numbers up. Me, I'm still enjoying my '95 S2 now with a sidecar attached to take me into the twilignt of my years. Keep up the good words, my friends. Mickey Cohen | ||
| Gregtonn |
Mickc, Who the hell is Eric? Maybe you mean Erik Buell. He has designed some outstanding motorcycles. | ||
| Brad1445 |
Who the hell made you the spelling police? | ||
| Gregtonn |
Sorry Brat. Didn't mean to priss you off. You twink spelling someones name wrong is okay? | ||
| Gemini |
"Sorry Brat. Didn't mean to priss you off. You twink spelling someones name wrong is okay?" now that's funne | ||
| Crusty |
MICKEY!!! It's great to hear from you! I still want to come over and paint your house Molten Orange w/ Nuclear Blue trim. Are you going to make it to Liberty's gig on Sept 22? (Message edited by crusty on September 02, 2007) | ||
| Spatten1 |
Eric, Erick, Erica. Ban me from the board. | ||
| Blake |
Some seem to think that earning a profit is not up to HDI's expectations unless it rivals the magnitude of that earned by HDMC. I couldn't disagree more strongly. Profit is profit. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'd guess that break even on the 1125 for a couple of years, while brining in a new generation to the fold, would be a good deal too. | ||
| Nondual |
It's really hard to get people to think outside the Japanese/Italian box. Heck, it's hard to get them to think outside Japan/Ducati - Most kids into the R1 or GSXR MIGHT look at the Ducatis (but usually it's just too expensive). I don't see them looking at Aprilia or MV Agusta though. That said, if Buell keeps plugging away and making quality, high-performance bikes at excellent prices with minor maintenance costs, sales will pick up. The 1125R is a good deal for the performance. I think a lot of folks thought that the lumps in the XBs didn't justify the price of the bikes, even if they were fair for what it cost to build them. Now that Buell's at least getting close to the performance of the I-4s and Ducs, maybe the lower-than-Ducati-or-BMW prices will get the 'against-the-grain' kids into them. |
