| Author | Message | ||
     Regkittrelle |
Once the euphoria of the moment passes there will be several "pinch points" along the way towards credibility which will, ultimately, determine the success or failure of the 1125R. The worrisome aspect... to me... is that successfully negotiating these hurdles is the responsibility of Harley Corp., not Buell. 1. Dealership understanding of the sportbike culture. To date, relatively few dealers have shown true zeal when it comes to grasping just what the sportbike culture is all about. One of the first clues that a dealer is clueless is when you find a custom painted, blinged-up XB holding center court. 2. Acceptance by the back room. If the technicians are not properly trained and mentally accepting of this motorcycle then Buell might as well fold up its tent. 3. P&A support. Harley has NEVER given the necessary P&A support to Buell. I've heard all the reasons, and none of them are valid. Without this support, success will be more difficult. (Interestingly, this lack of support is even more important to the Ulysses.) 4. Annual changes. The 1125R moves Buell into an arena that absolutely requires significant annual changes; there is nothing older in the sportbike world than last year's model. To date, Buell has gotten away with evolutionary changes only because it has not played in a truly competitive market. Most emphatically, this is no longer the case. In fact, over the next several months other brands will be introducing new models that might well eclipse Buell's newest. The idea of annual change is anathema to Harley. It's stock in trade is the milking-to-excess of old designs. Market pressures have caused The Mothership to become more progressive of late, but its tendencies fall far short of what will be needed re Buell.The good news, for Buell, is that the 1125R, is at the beginning of its development cycle. I'm fairly certain that another 25, possibly 30, street-reliable horsepower can be found in the motor and, given that they ran out of money (IMO) about two-thirds of the way through the body design, aesthetically there's room for improvement. Buell is more than aware of the hurdles that it faces, and the company is staffed with people who have no qualms about going to the mat for their bikes (Jon Flickinger is a true Buell man). The question then becomes; will HD listen to anyone other than themselves? | ||
| Jaimec |
Some very good, valid points, Reg. And it cuts to the quick in regards to the one single BIGGEST complaint Buell owners outside of Appleton run into every day. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
The danger inherent in what I wrote is that it paints with a broad brush. I believe the majority of Buell dealers to be ineffective. However, there are numerous others who do an excellent job, given the de facto limitations imposed upon them. One of the services that boards such as this can provide is to praise the good dealers, and chastise the bad ones. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Number four is huge. Very well written. The sportbike market is very demanding and will ridicule typical Harley/Buell milking of the old tooling. Most on this site will disagree and any criticism within that realm will be Buell Bashing. However, Buell has just entered a new universe, and the rules are well established and demanding. Buell seems to be dialed, but big ships are hard to change direction, and HD is a big ship that makes money with old uncompetitive products, as is the cruiser way. Almost the K-Car formula. A few frames, bunch of wheels, bunch of handlebars, bunch of fenders, 25 models. That works great for Harley, but would be the death knell when playing in a different pond. If Harley can overcome it's own culture, built on success in the cruiser market, it will be amazing, and truely impressive. It is tough to spend money and take chances when you already have a very successful niche, albeit that niche may die slowly over the next 20 years. I'm just amazed that Buell has gotten this far with the 1125. Great platform with excellent opportunities. I'm just skeptical because I've left large companies out of frustration, because I couldn't do what was effective if it went against the corporate grain. And I've been pretty anti-harley for a long time, since wrenching on bikes in the 80's. I want to be proven wrong badly. GO BUELL!!!! | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Spatten1... Your K-car analogy is most apt, and it has worked brilliantly for Harley. Harley has brought significant advances to their motorcycles recently, e.g., ABS, Brembo brakes on the FLs, but they have all been within the narrow cruiser/big tourer context. They've been getting away with this in the marketplace for some time, but things have softened domestically. HD is very vulnerable in the Touring area. As much as I love these Big Boomers they are decidedly a step behind the competition. They are long overdue for, at least, a new chassis. What should have happened by now is the introduction on a V-Rod based FL. That would have captured attention and, to a degree, softened the impact of the superb... but controversial...Victory Vision. Given that they've allowed themselves to falter with their core products,you can't help but be concerned about their strategy re Buell. | ||
| Ducxl |
Bedwetters????  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
To use a movie analysis, this situation reminds me of "Interview with a Vampire". HD has become decadent and detached from the world around them. Sure there are the faithful (remember the scene of the theater patrons in paris), but I don't see that number being replenished with the same fervor over the next 25-50 years. Armand is trying to find a link back to the current society, someone to help them relate. Armand is HD. Louis is Buell. I think HD realizes this. They understand having a hot, marketable product. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
I don't know that I'd go that far, FB. Harley has been remarkably successful and understands its markets far better than do most companies. But, as with many successful outfits a fat bottom line begets conservatism and greed amongst the stakeholders. Like most American companies Harley is an absolute slave to quarterly reports. This shortsighted approach can hamper new product development, and when you're selling all you can make powerful internal and external forces strongly suggest that you don't screw up the profit picture. This catches up with companies eventually, and it always seems to be a bit late in the game. Harley has been caught up in this a bit, and they're running late with certain product developments... but don't in any way count them out. The products are there, sitting on the shelf waiting for release. I've little concern with Harley products BUT, I'm way less confident in their ability to properly manage Buell. At this point the best thing they could do is just get out of the way and let Buell do what Buell knows to do. Apropos, maybe... I just finished testing an '08 Dyna Fat Bob. This one's a winner. I think the Dyna line finally has a star. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Reg, No doubt that HD is fantastic at marketing and understanding their market. I guess my question is will a buyer 25 years from now have "Easy Rider" in mind when they travel into an HD dealer? There are many who still buy HD because of the mystique that movie and culture of the time evoked. My son LOVES Star Wars. Even with the new movies, the impact on society isn't anywhere as close as it was with the original Star Wars movies. Buyers are driven by Hollywood and Madison Avenue. Will there be an equivalent societal art piece that will provide the potential impact to HD that Easy Rider did? When I watched "Wild Hogs", I thought to myself how tragic to see Peter Fonda becoming a parody of himself given the impact on society he had originally. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Bingo, FB. As much as they are beloved by the Harley community, Willie G. and "Easy Rider" have little to no relevance for curent generations. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
But there are current HD consumers who saw ER and were impacted by it and the culture of the time. Living people still remember. 25 years from now, will buyers be willing to look past more classically designed and styled bikes without the societal cues? Will the cruiser market be the cruiser market 25-50 years from now? | ||
| Court |
Like most American companies Harley is an absolute slave to quarterly reports. HD is likely the leader in that respect . . . they have done some bizarre things to "shape" quarterly earnings so that the glowing report someone was aching to read would be accurate. Good observations all . . . | ||
| M1combat |
Great thread. To address point four... I'm very curious to know the details of the relationship between Rotax and Buell. Will Rotax continue development with Buell just essentially approving and rejecting changes? Will Buell go it alone and mostly "inform" Rotax of the changes they have come up with? I'm sure the answer lies in the middle somewhere but point four is certainly a valid one. Annual or Bi-Annual changes are certainly required. I don't believe those changes need to be revolutionary however. Body work is easy to change. Same for ergos and the like. If the engine has a good deal of room in it that doesn't seem like a huge stumbling block either. I think Buell will do well with regards to this subject. I would bet they have the next bike on the drawing boards and a revision or two of this one on the test track. I don't mean a revision like a City Cross or Ulysses. I mean a revision to the 1125R. A movement of the bar in THAT arena as well as a Ulysses and a City Cross. Bring on the dirt bikes too... but don't do it at a cost of not keeping the 1125R a no excuses sport bike. On point one and two... I think that the service centers have come farther than the front rooms but there are still, IMO, far more bad apples than good ones when looking at the dealership issue as a whole. I guess the question I ask myself is now more about the comparison of good HD/Buell dealerships to the dealerships of other brands. Both in the scope of numbers and experience. Are there more good HD/Buell dealers than good Ducati dealers? KTM? I have no interest at all in a Japanese bike (or more correctly an IL4) so I don't include those. BMW doesn't really make anything that I have any interest in either. I don't see P&A as any sort of an issue what so ever. The after market has certainly provided numerous high quality parts for both the street and the track with the XB's and tube frames. Just the other day Pammy asked Anonny whether the Helicon had much room. I think we're in good hands WRT P&A. Leave Buell P&A for hardened oil pump drive gears and replacement grips IMO  . | ||
| Blublak |
 Waaaa!! I don't want Buell to be a homosexual vampire!!  Aside from that.. Reg has brought up some very good points. I've spoken with at least one salesman at my local Buell dealer who is so hyped by the 1125 he can barely contain it.. But, there are others that are clueless.. I called on dealer and they coudln't tell me about the bike since they don't even know what colors will be coming out .. The yutz I talked too was thinking they'd be a nice metal flake red. Oh, and probably only in the $14K range.. Maybe.. | ||
| Spatten1 |
As much as they are beloved by the Harley community, Willie G. and "Easy Rider" have little to no relevance for curent generations. I live in Golden, CO, and all weekend I see costumed, unhelmeted 40-60 year olds cruising HD. They grew up with Brando and Easy Rider. We grew up with Evil Knevil, Wayne Rainy, McGrath, etc. It is hard to think of black leathered guys as something to idolize when you have seen Schwantz sliding the front at 150 mph. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Exactly Spatten! The 1%er clones dress that way because it was the way they have seen folks dress in movies and advertising. THEY dressed that way as a throwback to the western horseman of the previous century (the whole "iron horse" thing). In another 50 years, we'll be 150-200 years away from that style of dress. It would be like dressing like the 1760's in 1960. I really couldn't see Peter Fonda flitting around in this:  | ||
| Badlionsfan |
ft bastard, i see you found sketches of me gettin ready to ride this afternoon. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You got the reinforced kevlar knee socks to go with your knee pucked knickers dincha?  | ||
| Ratbuell |
Blublak. OK, you caught me. I was drunk at work...again...and mistakenly told you it would be available in Crimson Red Sunglo. Sorry. It's Candy Red, not Crimson Red.  (Message edited by ratbuell on August 25, 2007) | ||
| Steve_mackay |
And it cuts to the quick in regards to the one single BIGGEST complaint Buell owners outside of Appleton run into every day Ummm... I'm outside of Appleton, and don't seem to have any problem. But I don't see as Hals EVER having a problem dealing with the sport bike crowd. As well as several other dealers around the country. Most of which are Badweb sponsors. | ||
| Tpoppa |
One of the first clues that a dealer is clueless is when you find a custom painted, blinged-up XB holding center court. That is a huge red flag to shop elsewhere. There are some notable exceptions like Appleton and Hal's. However, I have yet to come across a HD shop with any interest is Buells or Sportbikes. I couldn't imagine talking to someone about suspension setup who thinks that a Springer Front and Ridgid Rear are perfectly acceptable  Chrome Installers and Sportbike Techs are 2 very different things. (Message edited by tpoppa on August 28, 2007) | ||
| Midknyte |
One of the first clues that a dealer is clueless is when you find a custom painted, blinged-up XB holding center court.  http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/301594.html?1188322445 | ||
| Xbullet |
I couldn't imagine talking to someone about suspension setup who thinks that a Springer Front and Ridgid Rear are perfectly acceptable they are!! on a 1947 indian chief!!  but not on a modern sportbike. there are not really any adjustments for rider sag on the old girder. | ||
| Xbullet |
hey midknyte...i just checked. and there is almost no chrome on that entire thread. xb9jelly is the only one and it's a chrome subframe on an S. not a lot of bling in our community. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Man, that Indian needs some restoral work done. Then it will be a beautiful bike. | ||
| Midknyte |
ah, chrome is bling, but bling is not only just chrome... | ||
| Spiderman |
that they ran out of money (IMO) about two-thirds of the way through the body design, aesthetically there's room for improvement. What areas of body are you taking about? I feel the re-use of the XB-R tail sucks and it would have been cool to see something new, but dig the fact that there are thousands of XB-Rs out there I can scaveng their plastic off of if needed and knowing a XBRR's solo tail will bolt up no prob is pretty cool. Or are you not digging the front faring/side scoops? (edited for spelling) (Message edited by spiderman on August 31, 2007) | ||
| Regkittrelle |
The tail section, Spidey. I don't think it matches the drama of the front. I look to it being updated on the '09 model. I like the look of the front. It's not a beautiful or pretty design, but it effectively communicates a certain menace required of sportbikes. In person the pods and so-called "wide" fairing are non-issues. In fact, the fairing works particularly well at protecting the rider | ||
| Spiderman |
The tail section, Spidey Looks like great minds think alike. I have seen multiple shots, not givin to the press or posted that definatly make the front ends "wideness" and the "pods" size to be a non issue. I actually like the wide front faring. Like you said "rider protection" and it just looks damn cool! | ||
| Steve_mackay |
In person, the pods don't look NEARLY as bad as the pic show. The 1125R fairing assembly may find it's way on to my ulybolt in the very near future |
