| Author | Message | ||
     Hawkes |
So what is everyone’s feeling about Buell using an Austrian motor? | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Good. To me it's not where the parts come from, it's all about if they do their job well, do it reliably, and integrate well with the rest of the machine. | ||
| Spiderman |
I gotta wonder why this is an issue. Did any one mind when Buell used a Italian frame? Austrailian wheels? British engine? (ok that is way back but you get my point) So the real question is... Is it the origin of the parts or the origin of the idea that makes Buell a Buell? | ||
| Hawkes |
Good points, I been reviewing some of the other post and see a lot of bashing of other brands. When asked by the HD dealer, after I had them repurchase my 04 XB12R due to nothing but engine issues, if I would ever buy another Buell I told them when they get a better engine. I hope this is the one. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Spider - For some (myself included), buying American products is important - supporting American workers and American industry. The outsourcing of parts is inevitable, so the Japanese suspension was just something we had to deal with. Does the Austrian engine make in any less of a machine? Not in the least. Would it lower my chances of buying one? Not at all. But it's still a little sad to see one more part of the equation going overseas. Like I said, no less of a bike. At least it's still built here. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
at least the frame is being built in the USA though. | ||
| Spiderman |
For some (myself included), buying American products is important - supporting American workers and American industry. Agreed, I am a big supporter of American industry. Which means why some of your bikes purchase money may go to austria, china, etc. The major funding is stayin here at home. IE Yes Honda and Toyota make cars here in the USA, but guess where the major funding goes. Back to Japan. But without imports and exports the American economy would fall flat on it's face and our dollar would be even weaker than it already is. | ||
| Anonymous |
It's a balance, but at every step we learn more how to be competitive. Our goal is not to build a handful of boutique products, charge a lot, and then say "If you want American, you must pay". That is a long term dead end. We need to be world class in the US to keep jobs here. And like the frame shows, in some cases we are able to develop new US sources at world class quality and value. Unquestionably the existence of Buell is creating jobs in the US making sportbikes and their components, so that makes us very happy. Until Buell, 100% of every sportbike was imported. | ||
| Spiderman |
Our goal is not to build a handful of boutique products, charge a lot I wonder where I heard that a few days ago ;) | ||
| 45_degrees |
I think what's cool about the Helicon is it's a Buell design and gives the Buell kind of power delivery. The fact that it's Rotax built doesn't bother me. But, had it been the already existing Rotax 60 degree, I would have hated it. I personally don't like that engine one bit. | ||
| Thespive |
I thought it was an American engine co-developed and built in Austria. BTW, I pointed this out in another thread, your American Dodge Ram is made in Mexico, the Japanese Honda Accord in Ohio, and your German M-B M-Class in Alabama. Does this change that they are American, Japanese and German vehicles to you? I don't care where Buell sources suppliers, as long as the suppliers have world-class quality and the bikes are designed, engineered, and have final assembly here. --Sean | ||
| Garrett2 |
why do you hate it? (speaking to 45degrees) | ||
| Sokota |
Buell + Rotax = cake and eat it too. Air cooled for the S models please , a pair of 604 jugs ..... and keep em short [52"] and steep [21*]. Kant wait to see the Thumper effort. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm thrilled that the maker of my motorcycle is both concerned about getting US sourced parts, and at the same time will be somewhat uncompromising on quality and cost requirements. I want to buy a competitive US product, not just a US product. My 95 Saturn SC2, bought new in 1995, is still running well. Far better then the 1986 Civic CRX si that it replaced. And far better then the Toyota minivan I bought in 2003. My Buell XB9SX has been far more reliable (and better in every other way) then the 1986 Yamaha Radian the preceeded it as well. | ||
| Ceejay |
To me this does bring up a question. Given the fact that this motor has been in development in one form or another for a few years, why couldn't the motor co build it? I am in no way trashing the decision to use a Rotax, the use of a Rotax, or a Buell for using a Rotax, but when you consider that it is a clean slate motor, and HDMC is supposed to be exactly that-a motor company, why Rotax? Was it based clearly on quality vs. cost, and if so why not earlier? Was there a contract that had to be fulfilled by BMC prior to doing this? Kind of puts into perspective how long Mr. Buell has been thinking about this, and finding ways to acheive it, don't it? | ||
| 45_degrees |
Garrett2... I don't like the 60 degree Rotax (as used in Aprilia bikes) because when I owned my Aprilia ETV1000 Caponord I found it to be a thrashy and horrible sounding engine. I mean that the sound of it was somewhat muted and wimpy, but more because the overall mechanical sound made me think of dozens of dry bearings ready to disintegrate at any moment. This and the fact that smoothly riding below 3000 rpm, even in first gear, was an impossibility without thrashing and jerking. In fact, if I remember right it had to be up around 3500 before it smoothed out and had enough torque. I thought it was bad considering this was the "tuned for torque" version. Fuel mileage wasn't great either. Only put about 1600 miles on it before I had to let it go... because of the engine. Other than that though, I liked the bike. I would have bought the Ulysses had it been out when I was looking for that type of bike. Now, my needs have changed. However, I can't see a reason why I wouldn't like the Helicon, as it looks like an awesome engine, and I have no doughts about it especially because it is a Buell engine really. But I wish the RR engine was here for us too!  | ||
| 45_degrees |
Oh, and the reason I actually bought the Aprilia in the first place... I had to order it in special and didn't have a chance to test ride one first, so my money was down and basically I had no choice after that. I bought it on faith expecting it to be great. I bought my first Buell without ever riding one too, but it lived up to all of my expectations and more! I loved the XB9 engine. I think I miss it even though have the 12 now. It must be the emotional connection I have with it, as it was my very first Buell. | ||
| Jfox |
The engine is the heart of the bike and should be made by HARLEY/BUELL I dont know why Erik gave up and went foreign .There are plenty of foreign bikes out there already. P.S BUELL got Rotax when aprilia dumped them. new Aprilias use in house engines. p.p.s. I think Erik stopped listening | ||
| Diablobrian |
I know how that goes 45_degrees, I can't test ride a bike any more unless it has an electric shifter installed. My brother test rode my Buell for me and I had to wait until I had the shifter installed to take it for a spin. So I too had to buy the bike on faith, and I'm so glad that I did. | ||
| Court |
I agree. To the people chanting "but that's the way we've always done it". The new engine. "born at Buell, birthed in Austria" is a piece of gifted engineering. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yes Honda and Toyota make cars here in the USA, but guess where the major funding goes. Back to Japan. Actually it goes into the growth of your 401(k) and mutual funds. US investors invest in foreign companies. Foreign investors invest in US companies. Investors know no borders. | ||
| Court |
>>>Investors know no borders. See the story in today's Wall Street Journal about Lenovo. They move their world headquarters around to suit their needs. Also, you may have seen that the manufacturers of all the foreign parts came through and the new Boeing 787 8Dreamjet rolled out on . . you guesses it . . 7-8-07. It's a new world. . . if you are reading this on a monitor you can thank the Chinese . . . how long since the last t-shirt or television was made in the USA? Argument no longer holds water. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
We live in the age of technology and education. Those who refuse to embrace both cling to a future that shrinks with each and every single day. Other countries (China, India, South America, Arkansas) are beginning to live in an age of industry. Protectionism is pushing rope. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I live in the South down here in Tennessee. I see lots of people who believe there are only three choices in trucks. Ford, Chevy, or Dodge. They ain't drivin' no "fer-in" car. Just shows their ignorance. I know too many people who are building Nissan trucks in Smyrna, TN with engines made in Decherd, TN. I see Hondas made in Ohio, BMWs in South Carolina, Mercedes in Alabama, Toyotas in Kentucky. Nissan just moved their US Headquarters to Franklin, TN...my hometown. I see AMERICANS getting the jobs, building the products, and their communities reaping the benefits of these companies. It's a Global Village folks....I'm a proud American, but I'm not a foolish one. | ||
| Buellshyter |
I hate to be a pessimist but ultimately all that is being accomplished by off shoring our manufacturing and outsourcing our labor is delaying the inevitable. Capitalism is a pyramid scheme that requires expansion and consumption to sustain itself. Without it, you get recession and depression. The United States has exceeded the peak growth years of post WW2 not by any grand design of our own making but by shifting our industrial base and in the process has produced the world's largest shift of capital in history. While many fortunes have risen from this process, in the long run there will be huge correction that will ultimately land at the feet of the middle class. We already see the beginning of this trend in energy costs. The people that made our $150 sneakers for .50/hour are building their own economies and starting to demand material goods and a standard of living on par with ours. Cheap oil is gone - cheap minerals are gone. With a global economy in it's infancy, the very things that have made our lives easy are now not so easy to procure at a time when they are needed most. All this doesn't even begin to address the social and geopolitical upheaval that will surely come as a result. Barring some unforeseen event, America wont be calling the shots within the lifetime of some reading this. Having known the tremendous contributions this country has given the world that thought ought to scare the daylights out of you. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
And how would that be any different from England, or Spain, or Rome, or Greece, or Egypt? Civilizations rise and fall. The great experiment that is America will not always be the only super power. The overriding fault in your argument is that you believe that the US has nothing to offer the emerging markets that are China and India. We will not be looking at the growth from the outside. China and India have more people, period. WHEN their economies begin to cook, the US will take part. We will invest in the emerging markets and reap the benefits of their growth just as the world has done with us. If the end comes, well we'll just bomb them all back to the stone age to regain our competitive edge. | ||
| Ma1 |
HD is building a new engine factory in the Milwaukee suburbs. Why? Because they are out of capacity. HD does not have the capacity to produce this line of engines at this time. Their current engine facilities, Capitol Drive and KC, are at Max capacity, and have no physical room for expansion of current product, much less new tooling for a limited production engine of uncertain future. BRP/Rotax has excess capacity, due to the loss of watercraft sales, and Aprillas decision to take the 2nd generation of their engine in house. The decision to utilize Rotax gives HDI minimal exposure while testing a new market, all the while they are building a new engine plant in the Milwaukee suburbs. This plant will come on line in Approx 3 years, just in time to take a 2nd generation engine in house should this one prove successful. THis is a common stratigy in manufacturing, outsourcing initial limited production until in house tooling can be justified by sales volume. HDI knows what it is doing. | ||
| Jlnance |
I am in no way trashing the decision to use a Rotax, the use of a Rotax, or a Buell for using a Rotax, but when you consider that it is a clean slate motor, and HDMC is supposed to be exactly that-a motor company, why Rotax? Just a guess... HD was supposed to develop an engine for Buell and instead morphed it into the VROD engine. They basically screwed Buell over. Why would Buell want to give them a chance to do it again? | ||
| Two_buells |
I love the Rotax in this beast! Can-am Renegade 800 EFI Fastest 4x4 ATV made.    /image{4} (Message edited by Two_Buells on July 18, 2007) | ||
| Trojan |
You guys are amazing. The US hardly has a burgeoning sportsbike manufacturing base at present, and Buell have a world class bike that puts it on a level playing field with Aprilia and Ducati. But you won't buy one because the engine is made in Austria? So what is the alternative so that you can remain all American? There isn't one. How many XB parts do you think are made outside the US? Wheels, frame, swingarm, brakes, switchgear, lights, tyres...... Even 'All American' Harley have a large slice of components made outside the US. The V-Rod engine was developed in conjunction with Porsche, who were German last time I checked. Victory pride themselves on having more US made components than H-D does, but even they source parts worldwide too. Confederate aren't really a sportsbike maker but seem to use more US parts than all the others. Roehr has yet to make a bike for sale to the public. Fischer use Korean Hyosung engines.....Have I missed any? Rotax has an enviable world wide reputation for building bullet proof, powerful motorcycle engines that have proved themselves over the years time and time again, so why not celebrate a great partnership that will take Buell on to bigger and better things. Having a Rotax developed engine will also widen the customer base enormously for Buell. There are a lot of people who previously discounted owning one because of the Harley derived engine, so more bikes will be sold. This will undoubtedly lead to more jobs in the US so it is a win-win situation for Buell. Triumph may be British but they moved whole assembly lines to the far east a couple of years ago, and now some bikes never see UK soil despite the flag on the tank and have no UK made components. We live in a worldwide economy I'm afraid. |
