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Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 07:41 am: | 
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I'd assume the EBR IP that LAP is currently attempting to sell includes these designs. It's a pity nobody's come forward to buy them. As someone suggested earlier, odds are any manufacturer that wants to build bikes like this either already is building them, or they already have their own design teams working. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 08:51 am: |
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Let's turn around and look at this from another perspective.
Who would have any interest in purchasing the EBR IP?
Why? |
Raceautobody
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 09:23 am: |
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BRP
It would jump start their efforts.
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/brp-motorc ycle-business/ |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 10:22 am: |
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Who would have any interest in purchasing the EBR IP?
Why?
KTM's got their new range of middle weights ready for production. BMW and Triumph already have such bikes. Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, and Kawasaki already have middleweight bikes. I can't imagine Harley ever building such a thing.
Hero might like to have a ~600cc middleweight, but since they apparently haven't been able to go from 99.97% complete to 100% complete on the EBR-designed 250 in the space of 2 years, my bet is they wouldn't have the ability to build the bikes with the complete designs in hand.
Who's left? Some Chinese or Korean manufacturer most of us haven't heard of? Cleveland Motorcycles? I suspect a middleweight would be too big of a jump in complexity and size over what they've got.
Considering that, BRP seems like the one likely candidate. |
Ffbuell1
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 10:38 am: |
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Court, To answer your question of who would buy E.B.R. IP, and why? well if Harley Davidson and that is a BIG IF had any sense they would beg Erik to come work for them and this time let him build what he want's and stop dictating what he can and can not build.. look at how H.D. stock keeps dropping as they continue to lower their new bike production #s. Harley MUST come out with a much more diversified line up to be competitive.I do not think they realize just how many people they shunned when they shut down Buell, and when they owned them we all are (or should be) aware of the road blocks they put in front of Erik. Harley talks about reaching out to women and minorities (which is great) but they show zero interest in reaching out to anyone in regard to making anything other than what they make.. and have also done a poor job of reaching out to conquest customers, An example of this is that I work in a multi line dealership, non Harley, and when the subject of Harley's come up this is what I hear time and again.,Harley's are way to expensive they cost $25,000 or they all leak oil ,,and break down as well as they are too slow and heavy. to me this proves that they have listened only to their core customers and no one else, they need to target the 18-30 year old crowd and make some $8,000 to $12,000 bikes like Yamaha FZ 700 or FZ FJ 900 and that is where they could use Erik Buell's expertise because I am sure Harley could not do this them selves Oh and in closing has any one else seen how Indian is kicking H.D.'s butt in racing? don't think that doesn't matter. |
Oddball
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 09:16 pm: |
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Ffbuell1,
8-12K? "We at HD have that covered with our Street and Sportster lines"
You know that's what they'd say.
My 15 year old nephew wants an Iron 883. I keep trying to point him in the direction of tubers like have been popping up for sale on here recently. not sure if he's even listening to me. But i've got a year or few to work on him. He'll be riding my 25 year old Bandit as his first bike like his father did before him. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 10:19 pm: |
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Has anybody here read Cycle World's comparison of the Street Rod and the FZ-07? The FZ was faster, but not by much. I can think of quite a few reasons why someone might choose a Street Rod over an FZ. I can also think of quite a few reasons why someone would choose an FZ over the Street Rod. It all depends on what features you find more attractive.
And while everybody is gushing over how the Indians are beating the Harleys on the Dirt Tracks; the only people who have Indians are the factory team. Harleys are available to any legitimate race team. And an XR 750 beat the Indians to claim a Gold Medal at the X games last week.
As far as the slump in Harley sales, it that slump just in H-D sales, or is it a slump in industry sales? If H-D sales are down 5%, but the overall market is down 7 or 8%, then Harley might be doing better than some others.
All I know is that, so long as I can figure a way to do it, my next bike will hopefully be an 1190SX. |
1313
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 10:45 pm: |
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the only people who have Indians are the factory team.
Ahem...
They are available.
Limited quantity for those with an 'unlimited' budget, however - but they are 'available'...
Yeah, I'd buy a bunch of 1190SX's before I spend $50 large on a real race bike.
See what I did there?!?!  |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2017 - 01:52 am: |
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I've read that the slump is industry wide, and as you postulate, HD is not doing that too badly when all things are equalled. |
Ffbuell1
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2017 - 11:06 am: |
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Oddball.
8-12K We at H.D. have that covered Yes they do but they for the most part have antiquated performance and 2" of rear wheel travel and are 100-150 lbs. heavier than the competition. And yes Crusty it seems for the time being that the only one's riding Indian's are the factory riders ,but my point is right now they are dominating H.D's factory effort. And to answer your question is it just Harley in a slump ? NO it is an industry wide slump , and in my opinion if H.D. wants to be successful going forward they must come up with new exciting affordable cutting edge bikes ,I know the faithful H.D. riders and probably the top brass at Harley don't want to hear that ,but many Harley riders (myself included and potential ones) would very much embrace that And Crusty if you can find a way to grab an 1190 SX I hope you can they are a great bike I love mine. |
Buelliedan
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2017 - 11:45 am: |
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The Harley "Streets" are a total piece of crap. From dealers I have talked with they are lucky to sell 1 every 3 months per dealer. Overpriced, underpowered and the build quality is horrible. |
Johndd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2017 - 01:25 pm: |
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The Harley "Streets" are a total piece of crap...Overpriced, underpowered and the build quality is horrible.
I actually learned on a street 500. Very cheap looking.... Preferred the Sportster...ended up with a Buell instead.  |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2017 - 05:59 pm: |
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Actually the new Harley Street Rod 750 is a nice looking bike. It could use fully adjustable front forks and rear shocks though. Sometimes I think these manufacturers short sheet these bikes when they'd be better off going the extra mile and giving something extra. |
Williamscottrobertson
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2017 - 11:15 pm: |
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Yeah I could see short sheeting the 500 since it sadly took the place of the Blast in riders edge, but the 750 should be loaded with the nice stuff. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2017 - 09:00 am: |
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It would have been interesting to see the bikes Erik could have come up with using those 500/750 water cooled V-twins. |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2017 - 10:27 am: |
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Problem is that people bought the Blast, not so much for the Street models. But I do want one, but want it to make a Cafe. |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2017 - 01:04 pm: |
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The Street looks (relatively) good in pictures, but go sit on the damn thing.
The tank is so low that it feels like a scooter, even on the Rod.
There is admittedly no reason for me to want or care about it. I just find that off-putting. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 12:08 pm: |
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Looks like LAP is wrapping up the EBR auction today, at least for the office furniture, tools, parts, etc. and miscellaneous motorcycles. (No further word about the IP and tooling.)
I noticed there were both SX and RX ABS mockup bikes (apparently the ABS was non-functional) included. I wonder how close they were to producing ABS-equipped bikes? |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 12:23 pm: |
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Do you think there were any bids for either the IP or tooling? |
Oddball
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 12:35 pm: |
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Didn't watch that auction. I was just watching several of the others end. Saw one person get a few different things. Can't believe people were bidding hundreds for those (foam according to a youtube channel) EBR wall signs. I wonder if they will even survive scraping them off the wall? lol |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 01:00 pm: |
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The IP and tooling was only listed in the first auction back in June and there weren't any bids. Participation required a $100k deposit and prior approval, and the minimum bid was $500k.
I emailed LAP after the scheduled auction period lapsed and asked what happened. They responded "There were no bidders able to be prepared in time. Discussions still open."
Nothing has appeared on LAP's site about the IP or tooling since then.
Edit- revised after re-reading my posts from back in June.
(Message edited by Hughlysses on August 09, 2017) |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 08:02 pm: |
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Well here's an interesting tidbit gleaned from LinkedIn.com: Erik no longer works at EBR Motorcycles, LLC. His tenure as Chief Technical Advisor ended in January. |
Stevel
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 02:31 am: |
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Everybody keeps talking about EBR's IP. It didn't sell because nobody wants it, for whatever reason. What this forum needs is the source of the parts they used to build the 1190s. EBR made none of these parts. They were manufactured by industry partners. Now that EBR is defunct, any exclusivity for resale will disappear leaving these partners to market these parts as they wish. Some will want to do that, others will not. Never-the-less, we want that partner list. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 05:02 am: |
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>>>>Now that EBR is defunct, any exclusivity for resale will disappear leaving these partners to market these parts as they wish.
I'd like to know if you are "guessing" that or "Know" that?
I don't have a dog in the EBR hunt but anything that was "EBR exclusive" (as in designed and the rights held) or used tooling developed by or for EBR, MAY (I am guessing based on experience in the industry) have restrictions on further use.
There may be a clause that "if for any reason the company ceases to exist tooling must be destroyed or otherwise rendered commercially inoperative".
I don't know. I'd GUESS that many of the items, like hand controls and so forth were existing stock used on multiple platforms.
Time will provide lots of answers. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 06:57 am: |
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EBR isn't making motorcycles any more, but as far as I know (and I believe as far as anybody here knows) the entity still exists - even if it gets to the point it only exists as a concept owned by LAP.
Nobody bought the IP at the auction, but that doesn't mean nobody is interested. It means nobody is interested at $500,000 plus.
If/when LAP is willing to consider lower offers, they will almost certainly find someone willing to buy it (though that person may have no intention of making motorcycles - at least in the short term).
Right now, the IP is probably at a low-point in terms of value because there are still bikes out there cluttering dealer floors.
Three or four years from now, someone could theoretically revive the brand and sell bikes for more money at lower volumes (something more like what Motus is doing).
Whatever we may think of LAP, they're not stupid and they know the industry and they've been talking to people in the industry who may be interested in EBR at the right price at the right time.
That $500,000 price wasn't random. They knew that it was least in the ballpark of what somebody might be willing to pay.
If they're willing to drop that price to $10,000, I'll buy it (and I'm sure there would be 1000 other buyers at that price).
LAP is simply looking for the number and buyer between $10,000 and $500,000 that will allow them to walk away with the most cash in their pocket. And I'm sure they're patient enough to wait a while if necessary.
We may never see another new EBR motorcycle, but somebody will buy the IP. Where it goes from there, we'll have to see. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 08:46 am: |
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Remember there was also a requirement placed on bidders for the IP that they had to support existing EBR moto for 10 years? I noticed this in an ad on Cycle Trader by one of the remaining EBR dealers:
quote:Current owner of the company is keeping parts in stock and states they will support current owners with parts availability for 10 years.
If that's really their intention, I don't understand why they haven't publicized this from day one. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 11:19 am: |
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>>>>If that's really their intention
And . . . it's important folks realize that intention or no intention there is no legal or binding obligation. They could dump all the parts in the river tomorrow . . if they chose.
Folks, I think, get to thinking that EBR is still operating or exercises some sort of control. The Bankruptcy Court ceded EVERYTHING of value to LAP.
My sense is their heart is in the right place . . . but it's not like they are a manufacturer or an entity with a fiduciary or legal duty. |
Mnscrounger
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 11:42 am: |
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"There may be a clause that "if for any reason the company ceases to exist tooling must be destroyed or otherwise rendered commercially inoperative"."
That's exactly why Delorean owners couldn't get new fenders or bumpers, I was told once by an owner they went to the bottom of the North Sea after DMC shuttered their doors.
The following is 100% Speculation:
What if the IP and business entity were being held until the surplus inventory is bled down to a manageable level. It kind of makes sense that LAP would maximize their investment return by retaining any product support revenue streams throughout the lions share of the existing product's lifecycle. Once that lifecycle is on the back side of it's term, LAP then would have from their perspective a really well thought out design to sell as a springboard for an independent small volume motorcycle manufacturer some years (possibly fewer) in the future.
A resourceful engineer, with a little money in their pocket, familiar with the design, could quietly tinker away in their backyard shed, keeping the design current, waiting for the day when the IP has minimal value and can be bought. Priced at a point higher than the average dreamer like me can afford, but significantly less than the current value. That person/s would be more able to utilize the design, and hit the ground running, so the IP would have more value to them than an outsider like me. As mentioned elsewhere, any current big name in the industry already has their own people and likely don't really see the IP as a worth-wile investment.
As a non employee of the current company, and perhaps removed from any contractual obligations of a previous iteration of that company, this yet to be named engineer is not encumbered by contract to disclose a dang thing. Anything new they develop is 100% theirs. If they could get the IP for the right price, they could dive right into the day to day operations of building motorcycles the way they want to build them, in the volumes that make them happy. It might remind that person of the early days of their career, when they built bikes for the fun of it. Heck they might even see if they can snatch up, and revive the logos and trademark of some defunct marque that had/has a passionate following. It might help the sales a bit.
For any of this 100% speculation to work out, a perfect storm of things need to be true. It would require a smart and resourceful engineer/s with a few bucks in their pocket. That person would need in depth knowledge of the current product. A little business acumen acquired in the industry would also be needed. Lastly, they would need an all consuming passion for building performance motorcycles.
Does anybody here know anyone like that? |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 12:56 pm: |
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>>>>they could dive right into the day to day operations of building motorcycles the way they want to build them
With the payment of hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and the legal/accounting support to get the legal entity registered in each and every state they propose to make a sale in.
In addition, it sounds like you are suggesting they take a 10-15 year old design and quietly, behind the scenes (be mindful that even evolving a design involves 50-100 outside firms) and then coming into a modern market to compete.
Sounds like the formula for a mega-ass-kicking . . technically and financially.
On the other hand . . . if you can find someone with about $50,000,000 capital to invest . . . you're talking the real deal. Half measures are commercial suicide.
>>>>Does anybody here know anyone like that?
I do . . . .and I know one who'd jump on it if he were 40, 50 or 60 years old . . . |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 12:58 pm: |
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Hey. . . you want an auction . . . here's an interesting tidbit. I bought a car from these guys recently and am finding their mailing list to be like daily candy . . .
 |
Mnscrounger
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 06:07 pm: |
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Hey I said it was 100% speculation.....
If I really knew how the business worked, I'd be in it.
In reality I'm just an eternal optimist.
The auctions over, and most of us just can't or won't believe this roller coaster ride with Erik Buell at the lever is possibly really over. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 10:32 pm: |
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Sounds like Bill Melvin hasn't quite given up completely on EBR yet:
https://mibiz.com/item/25077-melvin-translates-pas sion-for-motorsports-into-business-opportunities |
Crusty
| | Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 11:39 pm: |
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I'm not going to get my hopes up again. |
_lightshow
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 06:38 am: |
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FYI:
<https://mibiz.com/item/25077-melvin-translates-pas sion-for-motorsports-into-business-opportunities> |
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