| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
Why would you want to turn right? | ||
| Ponti1 |
A right turn is as simple as three lefts...NASCAR for the win! | ||
| M2typhoon |
What are you taking about? NASCAR cars can't run in the rain... smh... http://hometracks.nascar.com/series/whelen-euro-se ries | ||
| Robertl |
I am not even a NASCAR fan but at least it brought out a little humor. I was actually incorrect on the quote, it was apparently NHRA, but NASCAR uses that theory also: It was Bob Tasca Sr. who in the 1960s coined the phrase "win on Sunday, sell on Monday." The Tasca Ford was driven to victory at the 1965 NHRA Winternationals by Bill Lawton. Tasca's philosophy is spelled out in his book "You Will Be Satisfied." The man responsible for Ford's muscle car program in the 1960s, a program that included the 1968 Cobra Jet Mustang. Initially hired as a 40 cent-an-hour mechanic, Tasca wound up running with a crowd that included Henry Ford II, Lee Iacocca and Carroll Shelby. Although he earned a Ph.D. in engineering from Roger Williams University, the skills that created the first Ford dealership to be No. 1 in BOTH sales volume and customer satisfaction were developed on the street. My heart wants an American sport bike, my body says standard or touring with wind protection. I think Elvis said something very important about supply/demand. Motus seems to have a waiting list for $30-40k bikes, but they also sell the motors in crates for other racing. The smaller cc bike market is hot. I just saw a smaller Ducati Scrambler, 399cc I think it was. Of course ERB did design a smaller bike for Hero so I am sure they could do it again, a lot faster than before. Marketing and dealers will be key. I saw a decent amount of activity on Facebook the last year, visited with them at Bike Week and AIMExpo, but there are still a lot of people that don't use social media OR something other than FB so have to figure out how to reach those too: email newsletter, update website regularly, flyers locally, twitter, etc. Keep it positive while still providing feedback. I am sure Erik and Bruce have a plan so hope it works out. I am a few years from buying another bike anyway. | ||
| Buelliedan |
"Motus seems to have a waiting list for $30-40k bikes" Is this a known fact or just marketing hype? | ||
| Cravacor |
For clarity, looks like it is fair to say Belfer didn't "buy" anything. He won an auction then couldn't produce the monies. I participate in high dollar auctions of a different type occasionally. Nothing of this high value, but in the hundreds of thousands none the less. This situation is somewhat different since we are looking at a liquidation, not a valuable goods auction, but either way, fair to say those running the auctions usually look poorly on non-paying bidders. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I would not blame Belfer for this. IMO the auction was conducted too early as the issues with HERO were not resolved before they tried to sell the company. Basically they tried to sell a used car that still had a lien on it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
All correct Cravacor. What would the people running an auction do if you bought a high end classic car advertised with clear title, and when you went to finance it, your bank found a mechanics lien on it so the title could not actually be transferred before the auction payment date? And the organizers then decided to cancel the previous auction, waited for the seller resolve the lien and get the clear title originally promised, and then scheduled a new auction? That may be closer to the case here. (Message edited by reepicheep on November 19, 2015) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Apparently Hero waited until the auction was announced to step forward and claim that some of the stuff included in the auction belonged to them. Since he agreed to let Hero pay $2.8M and take their stuff out of the auction, I'd guess the Receiver thought the matter could be cleared up before the auction date; otherwise, they would have postponed the auction. In reality the Hero business wasn't cleared up until months after the auction date. | ||
| Cravacor |
Yes but all that is according to Belfer himself. None of the articles I read provide explanations from sources other than Belfer as to why the deal didn't close. As of yet, we have no reason to believe what he says is a fact. Maybe that is why the first auction ended at such a low price, because other bidders thought the "title" wasn't clear. Since he doesn't have the cash and is expecting third party financing to cover his bid, that makes the deal sound somewhat shaky in any event, good title or no. We can all speculate but only time will tell and the longer EBR is in stasis the more difficult it will be to resurrect as a going concern. | ||
| Court |
It all appears, from the outside looking in, as sloppy. No clue as to which party owns the slop. But selling something you don't own is poor commercial wisdom. In addition, there is another piece of this that's not adding up. The instant deal, for the measly sum of $2M and change, should not require financing for it's life blood. I know at least one player in the game who could have written that check. I suspect the financing being sought was, as previously, alluded to, the "8 figure" element. It's going to take something on the order of about $50,000,000.00 to push this bowling ball through the soda straw. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Who else would feel the need to explain it? Hero?
The receiver could have announced it, but really, whats the point or benefit to them for going into detail?
It was nice of Bruce to offer some detail, but we keep demonstrating there is nothing but grief in doing it. It's a multi million dollar deal. Of course it's financed. What kind of idiot would have millions in cash just sitting around? That's sacrificing thousands of dollars a week in earned interest. Moneys gotta work too ya know! And an acquisition of a defunct entity with outstanding entanglements with a malignant partner under an obscure Wisconsin receivership law had issues closing? Say it aint so?!?! Next thing you know, that couple that told me they would buy the house I was selling may turn out to not buy it! Go figure. Now before I sound like a fanboy here, I'm with Court, and I think it would be nearly impossible to resurrect EBR. My only pause here is that resurrecting EBR is only slightly less impossible than establishing EBR. Which itself was less likely than establishing Buell. And Mr. Belfer seems to be dumb enough to try, and smart enough to do it. The biggest threat in my mind is personalities. I don't know how two entrapraneurs like that can work together without killing each other... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'll leave my post, which I wrote before I could read Court's, to take my lumps and be honest about where I am wrong. I still think it's crazy to have $2m in cash laying around. And I suspect the finanacing was all stacked and dependent on a viable business plan, not just enough to close the auction. But Court is smarter, thinner, and better looking than I am. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.  | ||
| Cravacor |
Wow, $50MM. That's a decent pile. Short of venture capital, I can't imagine who is willing to finance that for a company that has the proven ability to do little other than build basically customized 10 year old technology 1125s. Love the man, love the machine but at some point, rationality has to take hold. | ||
| Cravacor |
Reep, I think having $2MM laying around in cash is crazy too, but you and I aren't playing at that level. Sure a person could have $2MM working for them, earning interest or whatever, in an etrade account and liquidate it fairly quickly. In all events, as you and others have said, the personality mix seems like one of the greatest challenges even if the the deal goes through. Based on what I've read, Belfer comes across as a know-it-all, my-way-or-the-highway, eff-you-if-you-don't-like-it type of fellow. Probably not the most compatible personality for Erik. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I've not worked for him, but my guess was that your description is accurate for *both* Bruce and Erik. That's my worry. I suspect both will welcome a good argument, and if you win it fair and square they will thank you for it. But I doubt either is ever operating without a specific direction and a clear plan backed up by massive force of will and personality to get there, and I doubt either have much time for people that aren't on board with either accomplishing it or improving it. That's not to say they aren't fair. These kinds of people are perhaps the most fair on earth. It's just to say they are driven. It's a personality thing. I have 4 kids. One of them is just naturally wired this way, we didn't teach it to him. It's not malicious, and its not dishonest, but he knows what he wants and he always finds a way to get it. Even when it gets annoying or we get caught in the collateral damage of him doing it, we don't take it personally, it's just who he is.  | ||
| Buelliedan |
I am tempted to make an offer on the inventory of bikes they have available in the auction and use them as "race only" and parts bikes but transporting and storing 300+ bikes to CO is a daunting challenge. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I am tempted to make an offer on the inventory of bikes they have available in the auction and use them as "race only" and parts bikes but transporting and storing 300+ bikes to CO is a daunting challenge. If you can provide dealer tags, I'm sure we could arrange a Badweb mass ride to Colorado next spring.  | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
I personally think we have seen the last of E.B.R. as we know it (I certainly hope I am wrong) but as time goes by ,even if the auction goes on in December as planned ,from then depending on who wins it could probably take 6 month's to a year to start the process of getting the left over bikes approved for sale, and they would then be sold as new,but with very dated electronics and at what price? I feel the only way a resurrection of this magnitude would work is an existing motorcycle manufacturer would have to get involved, one that would let Erik work his magic and provide such company with a remarkable sporting line. | ||
| Classax |
EBR as it was will not return.  Those of us willing to be known as DHR (Dead Horse Riders) will likely see bikes being liquidated as parts and enjoy some low prices before the headaches of no support kick in. Even if Bruce is able to win auction 2 and secure financing as a going concern (meaning they have enough cash on hand/begged or borrowed to support the business plan for a year), The 1190's as they are on sales floors today, are basically just spare parts waiting for homes. The only thing that could possibly salvage them would be an update kit which allowed the bikes to communicate and data log via smartphone, with a new BAS and ECU that provide the unnecessary wiz bang electronics the market has made mandatory. EVEN then they are down an average of 20-30hp to to what will being sold by the time the company is able to secure the licences to sell them by what? the summer of 2016. Oh but wait, bikes headed for the EU have to have ABS by then. Unless I missed something, even if they do manage to restart production, it makes no sense to build any more 1190's with hundreds of 2014's still out there, so they likely won't have anything beyond parts to sell before 2017. The only way the make it back is to immediately liquidate inventory and sell parts, open up the race parts shop and sell parts, slowly return in 2017 with a small bike and a few 2017 1190's with vastly updated electronics. Otherwise we could just as easily see a repeat of 2010 and EBR parts being trashed and crushed.  I pray that some one comes along and proves me completely and utterly wrong, but I at this point I find it hard to muster the inclination to spend the time or effort to even try to hold YOUR breath about it let alone my own.  | ||
| Nobuell |
Classax, has been my feeling all along. That is why I kept asking what type of company can we expect on previous posts? If the plan is to sell parts and race stuff for a year or so before offering a new model, that makes sense to me and I can appreciate that approach and it also would provide some data for personal future plans. I also previously expressed my concern regarding financing. A company large enough to be financing an 8 figure dollar amount for on going operations should have no problem with 2-3 million cash. Yes they should be able write a check. That is business. My company is in the process of building a new office / fabrication complex. We will shortly be writing a 5 million dollar check. You have to pay to play. I am with Court on this one. Things don't quite add up. I would not mind buying an EBR for race use only (if the price was right) if I felt comfortable that spare parts and race stuff would be available. | ||
| Bruce_belfer |
Gonna do my best not to come off as a "know-it-all"...  The "lien on the title" analogy is dead accurate. More on this after Round II. The buy price is the tip of the iceberg. We closed a deal twice this size a year ago July. Capitalization is the only way to make a business like this successful. 8 figures is not an exaggeration. I've been living and breathing this acquisition for 7 months, and I have a very clear picture of the challenges and the opportunities at EBR. And I'll be swinging for the fences again in December. Never quit. T-minus 21 days and counting. Bruce (Message edited by bruce_belfer on November 19, 2015) (Message edited by bruce_belfer on November 19, 2015) | ||
| Robertl |
Thanks Bruce and the best of luck to you and the crew. Wish there was more I/we could do. I doubt many of us (I am sure there are a few) fully understand the amount of work and risk in a deal this big. Some of the recent information reminded me of the bank delaying our house closing 4 times for random nonsense and rarely returning our calls. | ||
| Panhead_dan |
To quit is to guarantee failure. | ||
| Hughlysses |
 | ||
| Steveford |
Erik has been down before but we've seen him bounce right back up. It looks like he has an equally tenacious guy in his corner. Doesn't it go third time's a charm? | ||
| Airbozo |
Bruce, Due to the amount of time you have invested in this acquisition, you must have someone competent you trust helping to run your current business. I understand the dedication needed to run one business let alone deal with all this mess. Good luck! (although I feel it is more dedication and fight than luck) | ||
| Finedaddy1 |
Don't give up the fight Bruce, keep on swinging! | ||
| Thumper1203 |
Reepicheep(Bill), you are wise beyond your years.. Bruce, I hope to meet you someday and have your signature along with Eriks on my next motorcycle.. (that hopefully I can pick-up fresh off the line in East Troy, hint hint) Keeping the faith in the great PNW.. Thump | ||
| Midknyte |
>It was nice of Bruce to offer some detail, but we keep demonstrating there is nothing but grief in doing it. This times 100. Count me among the hopeful. Buell was down what, 2, 3 years after HD dumped him? Granted, that was probably non compete / contractual (???). We're only a few months in on this round and we've got an expressed interest in our corner - on American soil no less! We don't need to be the ones dooming this. |
