| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
"There are things happening on the XB that have not been talked about in public. Some of it is stuff that Erik and the Elves have figured out and would like to keep secret as long as possible. " Lemme take a blind stab in the dark  ... The Gyroscopic precession generating device on the front wheel is far enough out that it can both be light AND add to the stability of the front wheel. The gyro's in the engine are powerful enough to add a great deal of stability to the rest of the bike. I believe it's these two things (and more I'm sure) that allow the short"er" wheelbase XB to exceed the stability of other more conventional bikes. I would also imagine that the oscillation rate (harmonic wiggle rate?) of the two devices help to cancel each other out if something does start to go awry... VERY smart fellers those Buell guys . I see it like this... The Japanese and Italians are getting VERY good at building boxes. Along comes Buell and states (and seemingly proves) that a pyramid is a much better device and goes about building a DAMN fine pyramid . There may indeed be a couple bugs to work out, but they certainly don't seem to be deal breakers by any means and a damn pyramid just works better than a box... You've got to figure that the rest of the world has gotten very close to the limits of the box because they're all pretty much the same now. Long live the pyramid . | ||
| Davegess |
Long live the pyramid . I am looking forward to when they build a circle  | ||
| Rick_a |
Whats the wheelbase/geometry on your typical 250 GP bike? What's the maximum power output? What is the typical weight? They must be totally unrideable! | ||
| Brianh |
It is quite amazing the stuff you guys are willing to assume, believe, state, etc... The RC211V wheelbase is 1440mm which is over 56". Like I said earlier, what's considered a long wheelbase these days is not a bad thing. I'm not an engineer, but it seems that if the length is in the right place, swingarm perhaps, a longer wheelbase can be quite beneficial. Back to what I was saying about the narrow wheelbase, it's something I hear that Michael Barnes told a track riding friend of mine If I'm so wrong about that, please produce a 120rwhp XB with stock chassis geometry and tell me how good it feels on the gas apexing a turn. While I've seen plenty of 120hp tube frame Buells, I have yet to see an XB in a high state of tune. Interesting. | ||
| Hans |
Phew.... An XB will never become a good race bike. Of course not. Unless you swap all parts, unless maybe the air in the tires: And even that: N2 seems to be better. But the Buell has an extremely well composed package for a street bike: And that is where it is designed for. It wouldn`t surprise me when the speed, and the force to throw bike around a corner, was commensurate on purpose. Goood safety feature. When parents have something serious against the new friend of son or daughter: The worse thing to do is to try to convince son or daughter of the bad aspects of her\his choice. The best effect gives the the praising of the new friend into heaven: How more exaggerating, how sooner will son/daughter start to think the opposite way and abandon their friend. It is a mean, mean way, but it works. It comes up in my mind, every time when I read about a suggestion that an XB is so supernatural well designed, that you need only bolt-ons to get a bike which will be competitive with street able race replicas. An XB is extremely well designed for the street. Period.  Hans | ||
| Rick_a |
Let me put things in perspective here. Comparing a 230 HP bike to a bike that in highly modified form may see 130 is pointless. There are several national road racing titles won by nearly stock XB9R's. Don't make me list 'em. A couple of you fellas are full of it. Granted, no Buell is a beat-all bike, but they're are damn good around a corner, on or off the race track. Please explain how the hell a good cornering streetbike can be unsuitable for a race track. | ||
| Bigblock |
Hmm, Tires was a much nicer topic of conversation... I've had several setws of M-1's on my M-2 and a set of Diablo's and I can tell you, regardless of where these tires were made, that they DO NOT I repeat DO NOT handle, feel OR wear the same. On an M-2. Set up like mine. Same tire pressure. 210 lb rider, re- sprung and valved racetech front end, recall replaced rear shock. Suspension well adjusted. About 4,000 miles from each of 2 sets of Metzeler, About 3,200 miles one set of Pirelli, bike definit4ely feeling different on the Diablo's, doesn't hold a line as well, turn in a little different. Now back to Metzeler, and the bike feels and handles like I remember from the 2 previous sets of Metzelers. Better. Noticeably different. They may come from the same? factory, but these are not the same tire, I find it difficult to believe that only tread pattern could affect wear and handling to such a noticeable degree. Just my 2 cents worth.  | ||
| Spike |
I'd agree with that, as long as we both understand it's a compromise. Increasing the wheelbase on any bike regardless of power output will increase the time/effort/input required to make the bike change directions. Increasing the wheelbase will also make the bike more stable by reducing the effects of weight transfer when accelerating or decelerating. On a ~220hp GP bike it's fully understandable why the increased stability of a longer wheelbase may be worth the loss in the bikes ability to change directions. On a ~100hp streetbike the extra stability isn't needed and a shorter wheelbase can be utilized to increase steering response. Just for reference, the current crop of 250 GP bikes have a peak power output that's not to far from the XB12s. Certainly no one is having trouble racing those due to "inherent stability problems."
There are more 120hp tubers than there are XBs I'll give you that. But are you really going to try to claim that it's due to the short wheelbase on the XB? Come on, that's just downright silly. | ||
| Rocketman |
Now you're an expert on the RCV Cecil? Amazing! Tell me, how many swing arm lengths have Honda used on the RCV? Would that be for straight line stability or better cornering at different circuits? Funny I recall the swing arm as been one of the first improvements Honda made to the RCV when they first introduced the bike. Then again, unlike you I'm no expert. Rocket | ||
| Court |
>>>I am looking forward to when they build a circle Sphere. Check it off. Time will come. | ||
| Brianh |
"Now you're an expert on the RCV Cecil? Amazing!" I can read Sprocket, that's all. Spike, I agree with everything you said. It's a total compromise. That's why I maintain that the XB is a good street bike and not in any way designed to be a race rep / track bike. It's more beneficial to tweak the suspension than the power output to experience greater enjoyment from the saddle. I also maintain that while you can do it, if you start really pushing the XB in a track environment you will more than likely come away a little disappointed. Not your first day on the track mind you. After you have some experience under your belt and are trying to get 100% out of yourself and your machine. Which leads back to the debate that sparked this thing, an SV650 for whatever reason, can handle those kinds of track conditions. Sure, you have to get the front end worked and put a shock on it, but then it's good to go. You've got 10,000 rpm to work in, a good handling package, and power that gives you major bragging rights if you're fast on it. And again, the XB is a good street bike. Just trying to keep it real y'all. That's all. | ||
| Loki |
and now the rest of the story..... Back to the tire treads. I too read the article in RRW. Personally did not like what they said about the Metz. I have found that the M1 is an excellent fit for the tube frame Buell, both the M2(was) and S1(now) wear these shoes. The detractors that were mentioned do not rear up. Tires comparisons are way to subjective. Yes they can be very scientific and that. Change one little item and that tire will react differently. The tire/bike/rider must be considered a complete package to work effectively. Wait I think I hit upon something......might that be why some racers speak of a tire not being there for them. | ||
| Rick_a |
SV VS XB Buell. The Thunderbike class is a perfect example. Check the results sometime. It's a hp/weight restricted class so nobody can cry over an unfair advantage. Hell, if the tube frame bikes could be raced effectively than the X-frames certainly can! Any streetbike is a compromise for the track. The Suzuki is certainly an example. Stock VS stock there's no comparison. Many experts agree. The biggest thing the SV has going for it is a small initial investment by comparison. Read the last RoadRacing World about new SV cranks shredding in track use. Good stuff. Everyone has an opinion, but to state one as gospel and all encompassing is plain wrong. | ||
| Rocketman |
Cecil good job for you you can read. It's just a shame you don't listen. But you do that on purpose don't ya. You know something, over the years you've just become more transparent with your Buell bating and it shows you for the fool you are. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Loki wrt the link I posted to the thread with the MCN UK tyre test info. Two testers, one MCN's chief tester the other a GP 250 rider. A GSXR750 chosen because of its recognized feedback from the front end and its ability to drive the rear hard and give the tyres a good work out. Same circuit same day. Rocket | ||
| Hans |
Rocketman, I would prefer an old fashioned London brick, thrown over the pond, instead of your personal flaming towards Brianh, specially because there is not any bashing in his last message. Just a logical conclusion, in harmony with the general trends on this discussion. He calls the XB a good street bike. I would say: "An excellent streetbike", but you can`t get it always, as you wish.. However: It takes a lot more to build an excellent streetbike than a fast racer. A fast racer is build only to ride fast around special, bump free, closed, circuits, by professionals. A good streetbike has much more factors which have to be incorporated in the whole concept. For instance: It must ride safely with only an 150 lbs rider or with an 200 lbs rider and an 150 lbs passenger. For instance: Failures, due to lack of maintenance or mistreatment, should not lead directly to catastrophes. For instance: Faulty rider`s in put should also not be followed by a catastrophe. For instance: High mileage is important. For instance: Very first ride has to be attractive, has to have a good feeling which gives you a wide grin on your face. For instance: That wide grin has to stay as long as you ride. One of the best allround street bikes is the Honda VFR800, the former VFR750. Still in production since the 70 ths. The 4 valves/cylinder have been replaced by 2 valves in the evolution of its engine. Good street bike: Yes. Good race platform: No. Of course you can drive a good street bike rapidly through the curves of any race track: That is a part of the package. Race bikes, with their limited set of better circumscribed demands, will do it faster. A very well designed streetbike will not easily be transformed into an race able bike, because most changes have their influence upon other aspects and advantages can turn into disadvantages, by spoiling the harmonic total concept. The better the design of the streetbike, the more difficult it will be. I think that Brianh is right in his opinions about making the Suzuki SV650 and the Buell XB fit for the race track. Just a proof of the excellency of the XB design.  Hans | ||
| Rocketman |
Hans I'm smart enough to read between the lines where Brian's concerned. Last post, first post or one in the middle post, you just know sooner or later there's one coming along that's gonna get right up your nose. I owe him one from Sac some months ago. That's all. I'm done. No flame war. Back to normal 'good bloke' status. Tell you what though. I'd love to chop Cecil's hair off  Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
SV650 or XB as a race bike? XB every time - blow the expense! Rocket | ||
| Hotrodsportster |
It's amazing. Cecil is still getting under people's skin!!!! | ||
| José_quiñones |
I did, did you? Two events so far in 2005, Daytona & Road America. Both considered Horsepower tracks, yes? SV's won both. I was at Daytona, it was not even close. Michael Barnes, on his 354 pound, 78 hp SV650 won by 38 seconds. Third event in the FUSA schedule is today and Tomorrow at Summit Point, WV. I'll be there. An SV won the Thunderbike race last year, we'll see what happens tomorrow. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on May 29, 2005) | ||
| Spike |
Just in case anyone else decides they're fed up with cheap rubber-mounted bar ends and gets the idea that these not-so-cheap Renthal bar ends would be worth the price:  Forget it. Although they appear to have nice construction and a better mounting system they're way too small. The portion that's outside the bar is the size of the stock plastic bar end. The portion inside the bar doesn't expand large enough to grip the inside of the bar, even with the extra sleeve. Now I'm ~$30 poorer and still don't have a good set of bar ends for the XB. I may try to use these on my mountain bike. Mike L. '04 XB12R | ||
| Spike |
If that is the case and if that is due to the wheelbase, what do you say for the 250cc GP bikes that use the same wheelbase? Are they merely good street bikes that are mistakenly being used as race bikes? | ||
| Daves |
Hey Spike, I have some bar ends in stock that work. | ||
| Awprior |
Homecoming... Bueller in need of a floor to crash on Thursday night... In light of a 'new' job, very limited vacation and a charity event that I really need to be in Michigan next weekend, I can only hit Homecoming Thursday evening until Friday afternoon... If there is a Bueller out there that might have a corner of floor space I could crash on Thurs. night after the festivites, I'd much appreciate it. If'n I can bum a bit of space, shoot me an PM, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, Alex | ||
| Rippin |
Alex, Wish I could help! I have space Fri and Sat nite only. If you need help those nite I'd be more than happy to help. Ryan | ||
| 98s3sns |
Another looking for info on where to stay Wed and Thurs night.Staying with Rippin and group Fri and Sat in Elkhart.Any help would be appreciated.Thanks Shawn | ||
| Rippin |
Shawn Did you get my e-mail last nite? Thanks Ryan | ||
| 98s3sns |
Yes I did Ryan,thanks again.Ive not been to a RA race. Only one in the US that I went to is Daytona Last year during bike week.Looking forward to meet you and your group I will call Tues before I leave.Shawn | ||
| Hotrodsportster |
MEMORIAL DAY THANKS THANKS to all of the current and past veterans who have made our country what it is today. Safe Buelling | ||
| Chainsaw |
Spidey, have you seen this!   spideyuk |
