| Author | Message | ||
     Firemanjim |
Blake I have a spare stator if you are looking for one. Love the debate. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I remember the old days, so I know this is half troll, but that is just too tasty a worm to pass up... The following is purely about street bikes. I park my XB9SX beside a new Honda 600RR every morning at work... The Honda is a nice bike for sure, but no way I would trade. Questions I ask my self whenever I look at the CBR... 1) Why is the CBR so long? 2) Couldn't they figure out a place for the muffler somewhere nearer the middle of the bike? 3) Why are the front rotors so little? 4) Couldn't they figure out how to make a street bike with one rotor instead of two? 5) Why is the thing so wide? 6) Why did they stick all that plastic everywhere? Cant they make a good looking engine? Etc... etc... Call me crazy, but I really don't care about what my bike can do over 90 MPH. I've probably only been above that speed on a motorcycle 5 times or so in 30,000+ miles on street bikes, and probably only twice by my own choice. So peak power is not my driving concern. I do enjoy a quick bike though, so I do want a good power curve but I want good power at any RPM, not just at high RPM's. I know how to ride a bike and keep the revs in the powerband of an inline four, but I find doing so really annoying and tedious for normal street driving. The first thing everyone says about the 1000cc fours is the rush of max power. Handy for wheelies at 70mph I suppose, or for looping the bike on an instants of failed concentration on a drag race start for stoplight racing, or for reaching "impound motorcycle now" velocities on the street. The second thing they say about the inline four 1000's though, and their justification for using them on the street, is the "broad powerband". The XB gives me the bottom half of a 1000cc inline four power curve, which is the only half I am really interested in 99.99% of the time, on a platform that can outhandle a 600 inline four for nearly all street conditions at nearly all even remotely street legal speeds, on a platform (especially a 9sx) that works staggeringly well on the street. I always care about how well my bike handles. I always care about how well my bike brakes. I always care about the nature of the power curve on my bike. I *rarely* care about the peak power output of my bike, and I have never managed to overheat a single perimiter rotor setup even on very aggressive hilly sport riding. The XB gives me the first three at the cost of the last two, and I think it was a smart trade for me. I gave up several things I don't use for several things I do. Were I on that 600rr on my way to work, my wrists would ache, I would be annoyed (and looking silly) keeping the RPM's high enough that I actually have more power then your average scooter, and annoyed that I can't see over the top of that minivan in front of me. My front wheel would have an additional 7 pounds of mass, much of which is rotational. All these things are tradeoffs to make the 600rr a better bike on the track, and they compromise the thing for use on the street. I have none of these problems on the 9sx. It is a fantastic commuter, fantastic back road bike, and very capable special occasion tourer. I hope to take it to a track day someday, but not to race, just to become a better rider. Were I to do so, I would find a track with a long strait tedious and unnecessarily dangerous. I don't need practice or skill to point a motorcycle in a straight line and go really fast. I can see getting a 600 race replica for the track, but when I see someone riding one on the street, my first thought is "that was a foolish bike to choose for the street". I'm sure the guy at work likes his new 600rr. It's been about two months now, pretty soon, I hope his tire shows more use then the middle 30% of his tread, and actually learns to turn the thing at some point. The "tractor technology" parked beside him has rubber on both tires well consumed from edge to edge. | ||
| Loki |
Reepie, Well put.  | ||
| Brianh |
Ferris, I'm NOT fast. But I hope people think I am. Point is that I no longer look to my bike as a means of setting myself apart from the crowd. Taking that stance renders the marketing and design of the Buell useless. Whether it be on an XB or a Honda Hawk or a GSXR1000, I'd rather deliniate myself via impressive riding. Case in point, our buddy Slo-Joe over on Sacborg. The guy is a German technology diehard. He tows his R1100S around with an Audi. Following him through the twisties on several occassions, I found myself marveling at his ability to be super smooth, stay consistently at 75mph, and NEVER touch the brakes. Bike says, I'm a conservative dork. Riding says much more. That's cool. Very deceptive. 1)Why is the CBR so long? Really? You're really asking that question to yourself? 2) Couldn't they figure out a place for the muffler somewhere nearer the middle of the bike? Well, it sure looks cool and it doesn't seem to have hurt Ducati in the past nor does it appear to have a negative affect on Honda's current race program. 3) Why are the front rotors so little? Lighter? Work better? Smaller is good isn't it? 4) Couldn't they figure out how to make a street bike with one rotor instead of two? Sure, but why? 5) Why is the thing so wide? You're kidding right? Consider the number of cylinders, position of the motor, and look at the bike again. Wide? 6) Why did they stick all that plastic everywhere? Cant they make a good looking engine? Riiiiiight. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder I guess. That RC211V is one of the prettiest, most radical machines I've ever seen. It's totally covered in plastic and the CBR600RR looks strikingly similar. Our opinions on "good looking" certainly differ. I believe yours may be driven more by what's written on the tank than the actual look. And lastly, as far as the new 1000's are the rush of power on a 160rwhp+ bike comes on immediately. Consider the new CBR1000RR. If you can ignore the fact that the exhaust is not loud and the bike isn't vibrating like crazy, I think you'd find as much power, if not a little more, right off idle as you do on your Buell. The big difference is that you can carry that same power, exponentially increasing, beyond 6500rpm up to about 12000rpm before shifting. IMHO it's everything you love about the torquey Buell motor plus more. You should try it sometime. } | ||
| Daves |
Hey Cecil! Good to see you. By the way, for Chop, I have a 2002 Mille R and still prefer the XB12R in the handling dept. The bike feels lighter, not sure if it is or not but it sure feels that way. I just rode the Mille R home last night, 300 mile ride. Not bad but about half way home I was thinking, I should've brought the Buell. I'm taking both bikes to the track on Weds. Of course it's at Blackhawk Farms so I'm sure that doesn't count since it's a go cart track like OHR. I'll have more impressions on Thursday. (Message edited by daves on May 22, 2005) | ||
| Daves |
ps, At BlackHawk I don't seem to have much trouble with the 600s on the straight, it's the corners where they hold me up.  | ||
| Eeeeek |
1) Why is the CBR so long? It isn't. SUre, the XB is a tiny bike and the CityX looks smaller than it is because there's no tail and no bodywork. Hack the tail end off the 600 and strip off the fairing and it would look much smaller too; but, what would that do for it? Yes, the CityX is a shorter bike and it looks even shorter than it actually is. So, when riding on the street, where do you store stuff on that bike? 2) Couldn't they figure out a place for the muffler somewhere nearer the middle of the bike? Personal preference? 3) Why are the front rotors so little? Because they can make them so small! That's a GOOD thing! 4) Couldn't they figure out how to make a street bike with one rotor instead of two? Why? I have found that two rotos are much more balanced than one. I NEVER liked the effect of only a single sided rotor. It does not give you as good of a feel when you are trail braking. 5) Why is the thing so wide? Measure the widest part of the Buell and the widest part of the Honda. Much of it is optical illusion. 6) Why did they stick all that plastic everywhere? Cant they make a good looking engine? So, is that what you think when you look at the Buell race bikes, too? Finally, try doing this on your XB:  The XB works for you and it's what you like. Don't assume other people should think like you on matters of personal preference. I like the XB and I especially like the CityX, it just wouldn't work for my style riding. I love the canyon carving and I love going on looooong trips. I also wanted a bike I NEVER had to think about. Just put in gas and go. That's how I chose my bike. This doesn't mean you should use the same criterea when picking a bike out for yourself. My point is, put yourself in someone elses mind before presuming to think for them. Vik (Message edited by eeeeek on May 22, 2005) | ||
| Choptop |
street track two completely different beasts. your seemingly great commuter/street bike that you ride every day can turn into an unridable beast in seconds. the next step? race. throw most of what you did during a trackday out the window. It means little at race pace. Depending on how fast the race is, you may need a completely different set up. I was told by one of our local suspension guru's, every 5 seconds a lap you drop, you need to reset your suspension. as to the Mille... it is a bigger bike. It doesnt feel light or feels like it truns quick.... until you really get busy with it. The faster you go, the better it gets. You just cant upset it. It doesnt feel superlight or twitchy, yet will change directions as fast as you want it to. It doesnt feel small, yet you can put it anywhere on the track you like, and will take up a suprisingly small amount of track when you want to go under someome. It really needs to be spanked to be appreciated. | ||
| Josh_ |
>my FJR makes over 16 more ft heh heh heh. 60+ftlbs 1800RPM-9800RPM. 90ftlbs peak. what a ride. Now if they could only drop 100lbs and make it skinnier. | ||
| Court |
The part of this discussion, and it's a good one, that won't let me go is the "why can't they convert me?" It occurs to me that if I won or was given a Honda CBR, Suzuki GSXR or Yamaha R1 in a contest, I'd sell or donate it without even riding it. Whoa there cowboy. I know these are FINE, will made bikes, it's just that I have zero interest in them. While at the same time, I am fantasizing about buying a new Buell, an old Buell and if I were rich an in between Buell. I know BrianH is a smart guy and, due to my own situation, I can at least appreciate what he is saying. What, other than perhaps the monster, would I never have the slightest interest in popping my money for a Ducati? I dig'em, but wouldn't buy one. Certain bikes seem to trip certain triggers. Great example....I can't shake the BMW R1200GS...evern at $17,000+. I think we're on the cusp of stumbling on to something marketing folks know. Some people are not candidates, regardless of method or intensity of persuasion, for some things. Court | ||
| Sportyeric |
Vik and Ferris. You're just not into that "mass-centralization" thing are you? | ||
| Buell_by_buhle |
ok guys, now you got me going! I bought Buells because they are practical, good all-rounder street riders. Unique, easy for DIY service, and supported by the huge H-D aftermarket. I've had Kawasaki's before (GPz550, H1)... Oh yeah, good lookers too! 1) On the street, torque rules! I wanted useable torque in any gear, enough to instantly accelerate me out of the way of danger with no time lost to shifting. Ever had someone deliberately, or accidentally shift lanes into your space? You want to be gone, in a car length, in half a second. 3) I want handling optimized for the street, where I ride every day, all the time. The streets are still free, right? Could care less for the track and finding the edges of the bike's performance envelope. The only performance envelope that matters is mine, and I want it optimized for where I ride! And notwithstanding the Buell "streetfighter" pure marketing, the reality is I *always* get a sh*t-eating grin on my face after attacking the twisties on my XB! The ease and ability to instantly change lines around gravel, potholes, road kill, you name it. I would guess its like a supermoto, but better on the highway and most stuff in between... 4) Although Buell reliability could always be better, the XB is right up there with the big boys now. Regardless, and more importantly, I want to be able to fix problems myself! Rather than rely on some mechanic at some always inconveniently far away dealership, in a hurry to spend my money. 5) Buells are still simple, air/oil cooled beasts (thanx for holding the line Erik). No anti-freeze, water pumps and cooling related parts to spoil the looks, to maintain or fail. But as with all bikes today, increased electronics hides additional complexity, which is only ok until it shows up as mysterious glitches or failures after connector corrosion and heat aging. Nice to be an electrical engineer these days... 6) If the ergos work for you, all you need is RKA (or your choice of) bags to convert a Buell into a great long distance tourer! Buells seem to retain their sporting abilities better loaded up than most bikes. 7) Last, but not least, not much selection in 1000's (with all the above characteristics) for the price... Gordon | ||
| Firemanjim |
OK,Jerry you can stop with the Brian baiting now,please.It's gotten as bad as the comments you gave Chop a bad time for--or worse.Beating a dead horse etal.I actually understood what he was getting at. And that big ••• pig better make some torque to carry its mass down the road-- | ||
| Eeeeek |
Excellent point, Court. It highlights something that most people forget: A motorcycle is an emotional purchase. Let's say I buy a Buell because it's what appeals to me. I love the bike and it's perfect for me. That's great; but, it doesn't make the bike something it isn't. Just because I love it and can hang with guys on R1's with it does not mean it is the best bike ever made. Show me a guy that can hang with an R1 in the twisites while riding your Buell and I'll show you a guy on a Honda305 that will hand you your ••• no matter what you're riding. That doesn't mean the 305 is a better platform. So you own a Buell and love it. Cool. There's no need to make excuses or make it out to be more than it is. You're not going to convince me it's a better bike for me because it isn't. That doesn't mean it's not a better bike for you. My point for that last few days has not been about personal preference. It's been about what biks are and are not capable of. Vik | ||
| Buell_by_buhle |
2) (I can't count :-) Anyway, its your personal preferences that count most in what grabs your soul, not anyone else's! If you suck up to peer pressure, you've got bigger problems than justifying why you prefer which bike you like.... | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
OK,Jerry you can stop with the Brian baiting now,please.It's gotten as bad as the comments you gave Chop a bad time for--or worse.Beating a dead horse etal. just trying to get a laugh, liberally interspersed with  and  but point taken. sorry Brian, hope none of this came off as malicious or mean. sure is fun to see all the participation from the "veterans" (Gordon Buhle, even!!!), hope we get a chance to ride together some day. peace brudda. FB | ||
| Court |
>>>the XB is right up there with the big boys now. I'd wager that the XB far exceeds the "big boys" in terms of reliability. Please don't anybody take that as Honda bashing...Honda makes a high quality motorcycle. The days of Buell reliability problems pretty much went out with the tube frame. The XB is raising the bar. Court | ||
| Superdave |
"Certain bikes seem to trip certain triggers. Great example....I can't shake the BMW R1200GS...evern at $17,000+. " Court, you better watch that...one ride and I was hooked, even at $17,000+ You're right about "candidates". As much as I thought I wanted a Buell when the time came and I tested it it just didn't fit me. Even though I think they are "way cool" bikes none of them fit me. You know, there is this feeling you get when you sit on/ride the bike that is right for you. If fits you. I never dreamed it would be something other than a Buell much less a beemer. Ha! I almost felt guilty when I bought it. Must have spend to much time here will unable to ride. I think it isn't possible for one manufacturer to make a bike that "fits" everyone, not even Buell. | ||
| Hotrodsportster |
Court: Understand the "hook" of the GS. BMW approved us for a no down, 16K , Blue out the door R1200 GS. Bought a 2002 S3T instead. Saved about $10K and made another Bueller happy, because his pride and joy went to another Bueller. Trying to Catch up to Bullie Dan in the number of Buells owned. Ride Safe | ||
| Reepicheep |
Eeek said:
It was deals gap, and it was not a honda 305, it was a honda XR-650, complete with knobbies as a matter of fact. | ||
| Ethanr |
I know the original debate was for track use, but since someone asked (and to add to Reep's response re) why spend more $$ for an XB vs. a 600 (of any flavor) for street use...ergonomics. I got rid of a Yamaha 600 because my wrists, shoulders, and back just couldn't take more than 30 minutes. I LOVED the power and the way it handled, but after trying various mods like Heli bars, alternate pegs, etc. I just couldn't make it reasonably comfy. I test rode the current crop of 600s and the situation wasn't any better. The XB gives me more power and handling than I can use on the street, and I just received IBA certification for a Saddle Sore 1000 on my XB12S...something I could never have done on my 600. | ||
| M1combat |
"2) Couldn't they figure out a place for the muffler somewhere nearer the middle of the bike? Well, it sure looks cool and it doesn't seem to have hurt Ducati in the past nor does it appear to have a negative affect on Honda's current race program. " Yes it does... They just never thought to fix it. They weren't smart enough to realize that the solution they came up with wasn't the best one... "5) Why is the thing so wide? Measure the widest part of the Buell and the widest part of the Honda. Much of it is optical illusion. " At what lean angle does the average 600 touch it's pegs? At what lean angle does a Buell touch it's pegs? Both with stock rear sets of course... "3) Why are the front rotors so little? Because they can make them so small! That's a GOOD thing!" So uhhh... Where are you getting your Japanese Cool-Aid from? I'm only wondering because there ought to be an import ban. Especially if it'll make someone think that 7-9lbs of unspring weight is a "GOOD" thing... Keep in mind that the weight reduction in the ZTL setup doesn't come solely from having only one rotor... It also helps to not have to transmit brake torque through the spokes... This allows the rim itself to be made lighter (have you ever run through a heavy braking zone that was nice and bumpy?). I'm sure you understand that though which is why I'm fairly baffled by your answers to these questions... "1) Why is the CBR so long? It isn't. " Yes it is. It's what... 55" from axle to axle? That's nearly 6% longer than an XB. "as to the Mille... it is a bigger bike. It doesnt feel light or feels like it truns quick.... until you really get busy with it." Well... The Buell seems to feel light and it feels like it turns quick. It stays this way when you get busy with it. "The faster you go, the better it gets. You just cant upset it." I've run over some county road grade bumps while dragging my foot (nearly my peg) at ~100-110mph and the Buell loved it. There's a road here (The "back side" of the Spars loop) that's mostly good for >100 MPH for about 20 miles. There's road snakes ALL OVER IT. I mean like sections that are 3' wide that are more than 70% road snake for hundreds of yards. Outside of those areas... It's 40% road snake everywhere. The Buell seems to love them. It gets all greasy feeling as you slide across them... The XB never has never done anything unexpected at all. No wobble, no shake, no shimmy, no pucker factor inducing imbalance... Nothing but stable and smooth... "It doesnt feel superlight or twitchy, yet will change directions as fast as you want it to." Neither boes the XB... Just light and very responsive, but not over responsive at all (to me anyway). "It doesnt feel small, yet you can put it anywhere on the track you like, and will take up a suprisingly small amount of track when you want to go under someome." Well... The Buell DOES feel small AND it takes up very little space. I do have to admit though that I've never passed anyone on the inside... Only on the outside. "It really needs to be spanked to be appreciated." Same with the Buell IMO. Mikel - I certainly remember the day you ran the Spars in fourth . Are you talking about the Flat Black bike? Sorry, I had forgotten about him . As I remember it, I had never been on that road from Baghdad (actually, that's still the only time I've been there...) and I was making a point of staying behind you because you set a decent pace and had been there before. As I recall, he and Kobie distanced me on the Spars because I'm generally unwilling to pass cars unless I'm CERTAIN there's no one coming. I generally wait for them to let me by for about 1/4 mile before I even start thinking about passing. There's only four places on that stretch of road where I'll pass... Two of them are the double lane sections. Makes no never mind to me really though. | ||
| Eeeeek |
I understand the concept of ZTL. Now, do you understand the concept of gyroscopic effect? If ZTL, as demonstrated on the Buell, is SUCH a great thing, the why do none of the MotoGP bikes use it? I agree that less unsprung weight is a good thing. You can't just say "I have 7 less pounds, so I'm better." I could remove my entire braking system and have less weight; but, you see the problem there. You spend too mcuh time in tech spec sheets and not enough in the real world. RIDE a 999. RIDE a Mille. Then, get back to me. Until you do, you are no different than the MCT who has no real world experience. You're regurgitating what you read on the Buell website and what you've pulled from spec sheets and only presenting a partial view. BTW, my friend Chris weighed his XB9R when he first go tit and the math doesn't add up. His was 445 pounds wet. Were did all that extra weight come from? Vik |
