| Author | Message | ||
     Danny |
Must...stay...out.... of....this. (Dr. Nick voice) HI EVERY-BODY! (/Dr. Nick voice) I realize I'm no MikeyP (although I did have the tattoo first), but since other old timers are popping out of the woodwork, thought I'd say 'hi' too. Danny 95 S2 02 V-Strom 06 WhoTheHellKnowsButProbablyA749Dark | ||
| Lurch |
Hi Y'all! I used to own a buell....Now I own a Suzuki....I was at HomeComing 2000. Get a clue Donnie.... | ||
| Eeeeek |
Danny...you can't stay out of this. You have far too much knowledge of Ducati and Buell to stay out of this. Vik | ||
| Cowboy |
Att: BLAKE...... a real good friend of mine from my home town here has just bought a home in Kilgore. His name is Will Shupak he races at Oak hill and other tracks in the south. If you should see him there would you make him welcome he is a damn good guy and a good rider. he has 2 race bikes not Buells but still a good guy.(750----1000 GSXR)Thanks......Cowboy | ||
| Choptop |
wow Danny and Lurch.... Ren Hoak voice: "memorieeeeeeeeez......" | ||
| Choptop |
Hey ya big Lug, you still coming out for Laguna? | ||
| Eeeeek |
Holy crap, LURCH! It IS the Buell Homecoming 2000 reunion! Vik | ||
| Henrik |
It IS the Buell Homecoming 2000 reunion! Sure is  . Hi Lurch. Henrik | ||
| M1combat |
"1) Which bike, SV or XB, would make the more economical/sensible basis for a track day bike?" I believe that would be the SV. "2) given the bikes were paid for and you were given say $5000 to spend on modifications, which of the SV and the XB would, after modifications be the more competent/faster/better handling track day bike? " I believe that one would go to the XB. "3) Given a full, no punches pulled, all the $$ you need support, would it be possible to make an XB competitive against liter Superbikes " That would depend on your definition of competitive... IMO, Yes, It seems that in the opinion of Chop and Eeek... No. I don't think a Buell with it's current engine (even exceedingly modified) could win a superbike race. I don't think that the entire finishing field would lap the Buell though... This is why I say the Buell would be "competitive". It would be competitive against the field, not necessarily against the winners as such. What exactly were the mods to the Buell at Sears point? Where they running the same tires? Who had more knowledge of the track (if it was a large difference)? If there was indeed $7000 in worth while mods to the Buell, then I suppose that no, I don't have any excuses (not that I've been making any previously). "And oh, yeah, a guy was there with a brand new 999R. Here are his times: 501 E MC LEAN, CRAIG D05 1:40:670 " Uhhh, that 999R is a $32K bike... Not a $17K 999. I seem to remember saying 999. "Mille: 196 E SCHWANBECK, SCOTT A04 1:46:418 XB 21 E REILLY, SHAWN HD03 1:47:022 " Soooo, seems how this is the closest you've come to having any evidence that point towards the discussion... I'd say that .604 isn't too far from competitive. I'd really like to know the tire situation and the experience at that track situation. What's the story behind the numbers? Was Shawn having trouble with setup or confidence or something? I'm not trying to make excuses... just point out that those numbers say something, just not everything. Six tenths can be made up in one corner if you haven't figured out the right line. Are those practice race or qualifying times? What was the order in which they finished? | ||
| Choptop |
So, have you RIDDEN a Mille or 999? | ||
| M1combat |
"Get a clue Donnie...." And I suppose you've read this entire discussion? Maybe "smash" was a strong word, but so far no one has been able to come up with evidence that an SV is superior to an XB on any basis other than support and price (Keep in mind that I do indeed agree that the SV is a more "sensible" choice). Also, no one has proven that an XB can't be built into a bike that's competitive with a Mille or a 999 (Note the definite lack of an "R" there...). Anyway, I'm going to go slam another canteen of Cool-Aid... I might be back, I might not. At the least I dredged up a bunch of old "friends" . | ||
| Choptop |
Also, no one has proven that an XB can't be built into a bike that's competitive with a Mille or a 999 (Note the definite lack of an "R" there...). So, have you RIDDEN a Mille or 999?} | ||
| Bigj |
Shawn H. on a HIGHLY modded XB can't beat an inferior rider on a stock Mille? How much more succint can you get? | ||
| Eeeeek |
M1: I note you left Jack's times, which were 5+ seconds a lap faster off. The bike Shawn was running is still having teething issues, no doubt. It was running Dunlop slicks, appropriate to the conditions. I think it has the potential to drop to 1:45's when it's all sorted out. Shawn has much, much, much more experience than Scott. Shawn was the 2002 open production champion for the AFM and the 1999 650 twins class champion. He was also the 2003 Open twins #2 ranked guy and has beat riders such as Tony Meiring and Ben Spies at Sears Point in an AMA Superbike Race (2001). He took 18th place at a Laguna Seca AMA Pro Thunder race while riding a 50 HP EX500. Seriously, he beat 749's while riding an EX500. He has 13 years race experience and even a full season of World Endurance racing. He has raced at Sears Point more than I've even dreamed about it. Vallejo H-D/Buell hired him to ride their bike because of his impressive race resume and his ability to win. Scott, on the other hand, is entering his third year racing. He has ten less years of racing at Sears point and is not one of the fast guys. I picked Scott vs Shawn on purpose to show that the rider was not part of the equation. You can not make the claim that Scott is a better rider than Shawn or knows the track better. I left no rrom for you to build an argument here on purpose. Shawn is by far the better of the riders. Shawn on Scott's bike would be running with Jack, 1:42's or 1:43's. You need to be comparing Shawn to Jack. 5+ seconds. I have not skewed any of this data against you. These are race lap times on the same day. I'll see Jack next weekend and find out the exact extent of the mods to his Mille. From what I understand, it's very close to bone stock. He races that bike as kind a bonus and has his real race effort centered in on his GSXR. Aprilia is offering up $10,000 to the AFM Open Twins calss champion, as is Ducati. As part of another subject, Buell is offerening up $0. As to the mods to the Buell, FMJ could answer that much better than I could. It's a long list of mods with a large bank accout. Everything from extensive headwork to lightened pistons to the best ram air kit they could find. It was done with lots of calls back to Buell and other tuners. Vik (Message edited by eeeeek on May 20, 2005) | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Don, why don't you ask Kobie for a trackday grudge match, he does a pretty damn good job of hanging with you on the Spars and he admits you have it down to a science. After riding with both you and Kobie, I don't think you could do enough reliable(wait let me put that in bold)RELIABLE engine work to let you smash or keep up with a Mille on the track. Jerry, i'm still curious why he'll only go up against Erik as long as it's not on a relatively tight, technical track. I beleive his theory is that he has too much motor for that tight of a track. | ||
| Bigj |
Here's another issue. When the XB came out(Sept. '02), the hype had it as the best handling bike, lightest front rotating assembly, etc. Let's just assume that was all true. Well, guess what? That was three years ago. 3 years is a life time in motorcycle updates. Even IF it were the schznit back then, IT HASN'T CHANGED ANY. You can't just keep quoting out of date info and using it as relevent, assuming it were true in the first place. That would be the same as saying an '02 F4i will blow away the current king of 600's. Time marches on. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
added edit:Kobie owns a Mille, and is one of our regular street riding partners. I personally think he is a MUCH more skilled rider then myself, and for everyday conditions Don has improved from when we first started riding up to an equal level as Kobie on the street. But I just can't help but remember this ratted out STOCK Triumph 599 making fools out of everyone on the Spars because he got bored... (The Spars are route 89 leading into PRescott AZ and as Jerry mentioned earlier is some very tasty realestate that happens to also be Don's back yard.) I think I said it best on the SV/XB debate, I think someone needs to lay down a class, so the rules of what is or isn't allowed modification wise can be looked at. I think Don may be remembering race results from last year for one of the classes where XB's were leading the SV's overall, but those results were for a class that had a LBS vs HP limit. In that type of racing it appeared that the SV's were staying stock motored and spending the funds on brakes and suspension, where as the XB's were spending the cash on motor and very mild suspension. I could be in correct in that as I only vaguely remember some of the conversations. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
BigJ, the XB STILL has the lightest front end, and the '05 bikes come with bigger forks. | ||
| Choptop |
As for price difference between the Mille and Buell... dont forget the Aprilia offered a HEFTY rebate for racers on the Mille... if you could prove to Aprilia that you raced your new Mille twice.... it ended up costing you $9500. Not bad. | ||
| Bigj |
Sportrider weighed the XB frontend against an '02 R6 and the XB's was lighter. Prove the XB is lighter than the current crop, with statistics, and I'll buy your hypothesis. (Message edited by bigj on May 20, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
Not bad at all... Just to clarify, I assume you mean the Mille and not the RSV1KR... I know I said Mille up there, but that was because I was under the impression that the "Mille" was the flagship like it was previously. Sorry for any confusion. I left Jack's times out because you mentioned that he was running something other than a stock bike. I explained that in the post. "Shawn H. on a HIGHLY modded XB can't beat an inferior rider on a stock Mille? How much more succint can you get?" Not much . Those times indicate competitiveness to me... Seems how it's been stated that there may have been some teething issues with the Buell. Who knows though... Maybe that's the fastest that Buell will ever go. I doubt it, but it's possible . "Everything from extensive headwork to lightened pistons to the best ram air kit they could find." That doesn't SOUND like $7000, but I'm sure it goes farther than that right? "But I just can't help but remember this ratted out STOCK Triumph 599 making fools out of everyone on the Spars because he got bored... " I don't remember that  . I'm not remembering any class results from any season on the XB/SV debate. I'm also not concerning myself with the cost effectiveness of either platform. Only the end result. I fully understand that the SV is a far superior choice from a cost standpoint. It's just not superior on the track itself. That is and has been my point on that issue. With regards to the XB/Mille/999 debate... Fine, I'd like to insert my foot in my mouth for saying "smash". Other than that, I still think the XB will be competitive with the Mille or 999 (again, notice the lack of an "R" there) once you have put the initial price difference back into the Buell. Lets do that now... Ohlins Shock - ~$715+shipping from the UK Ohlins Forks - ~$2000+shipping from the UK Sprocket kit from HillBilly Motors - No idea, but I'll guess about $400 or so - They don't have a price on it yet. Metzeler RennSports for tires - ~$400 (although I'm sure you racer guys can get them cheaper...) Drummer Exhaust - $400 PC-III - $100 Dyno Tune - $100 That leaves us about $3000 for the engine. I have a feeling we can make it to 115HP or more... I'll look into it. We may even have some money left over for ceramic bearings . You don't think that would be competitive with a stock RSV 1000R? | ||
| M1combat |
BigJ - I read in RRW that Yamaha reduced the front un-sprung weight of the R6 by 300 grams this year. YAY! They can't get lighter than the Buell front end w/o going to a CF wheel (and I still don't think they would make it, but I'm not sure exactly how little those weight). They have one more caliper and rotor along with the fluid and lines. They also need to transmit braking torque through their spokes (which means a bigger, stronger and heavier wheel). The Buell does not. That's why the ZTL setup is so good. It allows a massive reduction of un-sprung weight. This combined with the fuel tank sitting low like it does and the "radical" geometry allows for extreme amounts of flickability at speeds below 100MPH. In case you were wondering... 300 grams is .65 pounds. I don't think they're there yet . (Message edited by M1Combat on May 20, 2005) | ||
| Firemanjim |
You might want to check out prices on engine work on a complete motor,you can spend 7000 there no problem,and they are not using a Power Commander,but the Buell Race piece that needs to be tuned with MS-DOS.Marchesini wheels,the chain conversion is a bunch of money,bodywork,custom airbox and ram air,Ti-Force exhaust,etc,etc,etc.---just looked up chain conversion kit that is offered by Hal's--hold on tight-- XB9CD-1 HAL'S XB 9 & XB12 CHAIN DRIVE CONVERSION KIT $2,495.00 | ||
| M1combat |
I know Jim . I found prices closer to my budget . Check two posts up. I know they aren't using a power commander, but from what I hear the injectors will support that much power (I'm only shooting for about 115-120), and a PCIII should do the trick. I'm not interested in the Buell "race" ECM. It's too spendy . Not interested in the least in a Ti-Force... Too much money for what I believe will be a small or non-existant benifit over the stock header and Drummer. I'll need that money for the engine . I suppose I forgot body work and ram air ... Keep in mind though... We're still lighter than the other two (a good deal in the case of the 999). We don't really even need 115HP IMO... I think I'd be happy with ~110 and a nice broad power band. Keep in mind, we're putting Rennsports against whatever comes stock on the RSV... | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Again, what needs to be done is to pick a class. If you are not going to pick a class to build to, then pick a total price range. If you use the MSRP for the Mille as the base, then you have to likewise use the MSRP for the XB base, either 9 (recommended for the extra revs) or a 12. THEN start your build. IF you wish to use real world pricing out the door, then look around the net for deals as the base, but either way set a cap for the max amount of money used to bench race this build. I wonder why your choosing Metzler Rennsports for the XB???? Pilot Race I think would be a better choice as a proven on XB's tire. My point about the Triumph was to remind you how an incredible rider on an thrashed last legs bike(HIS words) could shame you in your house...its the point that is being made in the time comparison above, a highly skilled rider still ran slower in his house over a lesser rider without as much track time. To me that doesn't speak of being competative as a bike, that speaks of PURE rider. | ||
| Choptop |
So, have you RIDDEN a Mille or 999? | ||
| Eeeeek |
Wow, so if you think that an FIM/AMA level rider on a highly modified Buell keeping a third year club racer on a stock Mille in sight means competetive, then there you go. You have demonstrated that you don't know how much engine work truly costs, what's involved in making a 110-115 rwhp Buell (nevermind reliability) and you greatly underestimate the Mille and the 999. You need to ride one of those bikes. You also need to try racing. You have based your entire argument on speculation and turn a blind eye to the facts. I can understand brand loyalty and I can understand loving the XB. You have elevated it to a level beyond its capabilities, though. The XB is what it is, a very unique, competant streetbike. It is not a Superbike nor was it designed to be. Vik | ||
| Bigj |
Hey Vik, I'll bet I can beat you through the first turn at the Horsethief/Willow on my mountain bike vs. the 954  | ||
| Superdave |
I hate to change the subject, but I was wondering if one of you race bike buffs could tell me what this is supposed to be -  I collect scale miniatures and someone gave this one to me but didn't know what it is. I don't have a clue either... Dave |
