| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
Choptop - "how have you made any point? " Eeeeek - "M1: Direct to the point: The XB frame is better than the SV frame. I agree with that 100%. Read back a few posts, I did say that I think the XB can be a class champion against SV's." Maybe I haven't made any point to you Chop, but Vik seems to have understood me there for a moment. The two of you keep saying things like "I can buy a class champion SV for $5K"... Neat. That doesn't mean that it's superior to a Buell in the least. It's almost certainly superior to a $5K Buell, but I wasn't trying to make that point. I was ONLY saying that the XB is technically superior to the SV. That's it. You and Vik then decided that because you've been on a race track a time or two that you could inform me that the SV is superior because you can get close to the same performance on a lot less money. THAT is called branching off... "The fatal flaw in most internet discussions." Guess what... The XB is still the superior platform. Anyway... For those of you who had pointed and pressing discussions going on... Sorry for the detour  . | ||
| Eeeeek |
You were saying so much more than that. Your words: "An XB can be made comptetive with a Mille or 998." You even stated it's a better chasis than a 999. You're coming back to the original SV discussion now, which is nice. So now you simply say the XB is the superior platform. Superior to what, this time? You can take the best frame in the world (and I don't think the XB frame is the best in the world) and if you pair it up with a less than ideal engine, you don't have a superior platform. Finally, I did say I think the XB can be made into a superior race platform for the SV class, under the rules of that class. It hasn't happened yet, though. So until that time, it's just speculation. Vik | ||
| Oldguy |
Does anyone (besides the combatants) still care about this discussion? I know it's getting very old to me. Maybe it should move out of the general discussion area. If you listen closely it begins to sound like "My dad can beat your dad". Glenn | ||
| Oldguy |
Peter - Good luck in running the Dakar Rallye. Charlie Rauseo, who has run the last two Dakars, spoke at American Sportbike Night last month. From my perspective you would have to be crazy to want to do that to yourself. What kind of a support team do you have lined up and how are you fixed for sponsorship. If I remember the numbers correctly, Charlie said it was $16,000 to enter and over $100,000 in total expenses (for a privateer entrant). Best of luck to you and keep us in the loop as your plans progress. Glenn | ||
| Court |
>>>>Does anyone (besides the combatants) still care about this discussion? No. But, it's great to see Choptop and Vik participating. The names may be new to some of you but I'd listen a bit before I decided what hat to put on them. In addition, anytime you get Henrik and Peter in the same dicussion, something good is going to happen. Go Pete Go By the way, when the dust settles, I'll tell you the answer to the SV v. Buell question. Court | ||
| Choptop |
Yep been on a race track a time or two. heehhee... Maybe even know a thing or two about Buells. Anyway, yer welcome to come out west for a track day or race any day. We'll let ya put in some laps on an SV and a Buell, do a little comparo. That would be the REAL way to tell eh? beyond that, its all kinda speculation and bench racing. | ||
| Superdave |
Yeah, Court, I've lost interest...come to think of it I've never even been to a motorcycle race. Gooooo Pete! | ||
| Brianh |
I simply must chime in on this. I apologize in advance! First, realize that Vik and Chop and myself all met at the BUELL HOMECOMING 2000. We've been through the Buell ringer, drank the koolaid, taken the pilgrimage, and made our best attempts to walk the path of the Buell righteous. Each of us is on the track now with a good running Japanese motorcycle. Why? Numerous reasons. Not the least of which is reliability. In track conditions even the best made Japanese appliances go boom! Except Hondas of course. Exposing your average Buell to track conditions for extended periods of time will only serve to turn the engine into muck. It simply was not designed for that arena and Erik Buell will tell you that himself. Why do you think he calls it a "street"fighter? That said, I've seen what appears to be a vast improvement in the XB's regarding reliability. But then, I don't pay much attention to Buells anymore so maybe I'm mistaken. I'd have to disagree with the "Buell chassis are better" argument from the perspective that they're not flexible enough. By that I mean that they have a very narrow range of adjustment where they will feel good to the rider. Every XB I've ridden, 2-count-em 2, tended to stand up under braking and were actually pretty hard to turn in. I'm told that the "proper setup" on the XB cures those common complaints. I believe that. But with an SV or a Honda or whatever, you don't have to be so exact to have a good feeling bike. They can more easily adapt to different tracks and conditions and accomodate a wider range of riders out of the box. So when you say that handling is more important, I agree. But that doesn't mean a Buell is "better" handling. In fact, if you read up on the Hal's and that other race bike, I think they make some significant changes to geometry to get the bike working well. Don't they? The track day organization I run with has a small fleet of XB's for track day rental. And when you get the coaches alone and ask about the XB's, there reviews are not very favorable. The bike has no legs either. On the track it's really nice to have some overrev. I'd argue that the SV doesn't have enough RPM to give choices at different turns. I like the extra 1500-2000 rpm at the upper range to play with. The Buell has nothing at all! It's the first thing I do whenever getting on a Buell, banging off the rev limiter in first on accident. And what's so frustrating with it is that the rev limiter hits right where the bike feels like it's starting to take off. It feels good in that last 500rpm on an XB. But that's it! The Rose Colored Glasses most Buell guys wear is great. I loved my 98 S3 like no other bike before it or since. But it burned me and hopefully yours won't burn you. It really feels bad when you defend something so vehemently and it fails you. You only need to go to the track to see how well an XB works. Count how many you see out on the race track vs. say a vastly inferior bike like, EX250 EX500 or an old 90's F3. You see a lot more of those on the track. Why? And my challenge still stands. As long as it's not on a Go-Cart track like OHR, I'm more than willing to race Erik Buell for lap times, me on my ancient F4i and him on whatever Buell he wants to bring! (Message edited by brianh on May 20, 2005) | ||
| Josh_ |
>Does anyone (besides the combatants) still care about this discussion? I dunnno but it seems a much better discussion than we usually get on here, and look at all the old timers coming out of the woodwork  | ||
| Eeeeek |
Sidebar: PPiA, please send out a HUGE annoucement when you get PayPal set up on your site. I can only guess how much work you're going to need to put into getting read for Dakar and I know every little bit helps. Please, please, please keep a journal and chronicle your experience. Now, back to the "fight." I was wondering, was the XB chasis designed around the low power engine it has and is the radical geometry only viable for a rather narrow power range? Vik | ||
| M1combat |
"look at all the old timers coming out of the woodwork" "Count how many you see out on the race track vs. say a vastly inferior bike like, EX250 EX500 or an old 90's F3. You see a lot more of those on the track. Why? " I would venture to say that it's due to the fact that they've only been around for a few years and they are relatively expensive... | ||
| M1combat |
"You were saying so much more than that. Your words: "An XB can be made competitive with a Mille or 998."" Maybe I made a couple comments aside from the point I was trying to make sure... That particular one... I'll stand behind it all day unless someone can prove that I'm wrong. | ||
| Choptop |
can be proven wrong any time any place ya like. A short ride on them will do it. The XB cant hold a candle to the Mille or 998... they are completely diferent types of bikes, the two spaggetti burners being races bikes with mirrors and turn signals. if you dont understand that... you really dont understand any of the 3 bikes you mentioned. again, perhaps you should limit your congecture to bikes that you've put around a track. | ||
| M1combat |
I couldn't find any wet numbers... RSV1000R - 408lbsDry - 108.5HP- $17,899 Ducati 999 - 439lbsDry - 115HP- $17,695 Buell XB12R - 395LbsDry - ~90-93HP- $10,995 So uh... tell me exactly why $6500-$7000 worth of Ohlins suspension and NRHS engine work wouldn't make an XB competitive with a Mille (I still think of the "Mille" name when I think of Aprilia's flagship model, even though it's now the RSV 1000R) or a 999... Heck, you'd probably even have enough money left over to throw a set of radial brakes on if you really thought you'd need them... I only use the price as a yard stick because you two seem to feel that's the way to measure the XB vs. SV debate. Oh, and that's if you end up paying MSRP for the Buell... Personally... I think that Buell would SMASH the stock Mille (RSV 1KR) or 999. | ||
| M1combat |
"The XB cant hold a candle to the Mille or 998... " Not in stock trim sure... Just like the SV can't keep up with an XB is stock trim. That's not the point I was making... You'll maybe remember that I said - "An XB can be made competitive with a Mille or 998." | ||
| Eeeeek |
OK, well I think that Buell will drop to the bottom of the ocean faster than a Mille or a 998 and I stand behind it all day unless someone can prove that I'm wrong. Stellar debate skills, there. The burden of proof should be on you, M1. The 998 is a race winning bike. A WSBK winning bike. The Mille is also a race winning bike at the WSBK level. So now you're saying an XB would be competetive in WSBK? Vik | ||
| Henrik |
Now you've done it - gone and mentioned his name - and sure enough he shows up  Hi Brian, glad to see you posting - happier to see you posting as Brian and not the other alias I think this has the potential to be an interesting discussion, provided the participants (word chosen for a reason - hint, hint) could define exactly what is being discussed. To keep referring back to old posts, quoting out of context, from a point in time where it seemed the topic was different from now ... well that's just pissing against the wind. So how about it. Specify the topic and stick to it. Brian; as for your bike count for track bikes; Probably the same reason I picked an SV; they've been around for awhile and have proven to be reliable and fairly easy and cheap to buy, upgrade and keep running. Plus, if you're a racer, the classes available for your bike makes difference as well. I wouldn't use that as a reason to discount the XB platform for a track bike. CPR Henrik | ||
| Choptop |
So, have you RIDDEN a Mille or 999? again, a short ride on all 3 will dispell the thoughts you are having. You can pour all the cash you like into the Buell, its never going to be a Mille or 999... much less "smash" either one. | ||
| Eeeeek |
M1: Before you continue, you need to ride one of the bikes you're talking about. Simply stating dry weight doesn't mean a thing. That Mille you put it up against, it comes with OZ wheels, Ohlins forks, shock, damper and a world class frame. I've ridden the Mille on the track and it makes you a better rider. You also can not underestimate the power of a slipper clutch. The bike is simply phenominal. As good as it is, the 999 is even better. Vik | ||
| Choptop |
hehehehehe... we've congured up Cecil... ala saying his name 3 times in a row. The ghosts of BadWeb re-appear !!! (dramatic music) next MikeyP will show up... cats and dogs sleeping together !!! TOTAL ANARCHY !!! oh wait.. .where was I? | ||
| M1combat |
"So now you're saying an XB would be competetive in WSBK? " Uhhh, WSBK runs bone stock bikes? I'm not being sarcastic... I don't know. It just sounds un-likely to me. Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't recall ever even uttering (well, typing ) the letters WSBK in anything close to that order... at least if I DID they weren't capitalized and used as an acronym anyway... "Simply stating dry weight doesn't mean a thing. " Of course it does... Admittedly it doesn't mean everything, but it DOES mean that I'm not trying to turn some 900Lb Rune into a bike that's competitive with the flagship Aprilia or a 999. "That Mille you put it up against, it comes with OZ wheels, Ohlins forks, shock, damper and a world class frame. I've ridden the Mille on the track and it makes you a better rider." That's why we have a $7000 budget here... The Buell won't be needing OZ wheels (maybe one on the back...) and the Ohlins parts are readily available. It wouldn't take too much time to get the engine work done either and the end result would be a lighter and more powerful bike that should handle at least as well as either of those two... Maybe instead of the radial brakes we could go with a chain conversion that would lengthen the wheel base a little. I like that idea better myself, I kind of like the ZTL system. You may not like it (or believe it for that matter), but the XB comes with a world class frame as well. As far as the engine... It's not like the RSV or the 999 are real power houses and with the Buell we're starting with a lighter bike from the get go. I won't mention that those are dry weights and that not only do the aprilia and the 999 have a larger fuel capacity, but they also need water. The resultant Buell would be a good chunk lighter than either of the other two... Aside from the acceleration and road holding benefits, I'm sure you understand that this will use less rubber... Seems how we're talking racing... Henrik - We're discussing the various merits of a few motorcycles. It started out SV-650 Vs XB. I think the general consensus was that the XB would make a superior track bike in it's own right, but isn't competitive price-wise (by a good margin too). I made a comment a while back about my opinion that an XB could be made competitive with a Mille or a 999. The topic has now moved into that arena . | ||
| Henrik |
hehehehehe... we've congured up Cecil... ala saying his name 3 times in a row. that's what I was getting at - but I'm sure he was only mentioned once  If we can go back and prove that, will he go away? Juuuuuust kidding Brian. Would be a hoot if MikeP shows his face here - as long as that's all he shows sorry Henrik, but at least his was a calm, lucid and fairly rational post It was indeed. I'd even strike the "fairly." Now - anyone care to define what's being discussed or are you having more fun flinging mud ? Henrik | ||
| Henrik |
We're discussing the various merits of a few motorcycles. Ooops, cross-posting. Still, wouldn't it be more useful to further narrow it down. Or maybe split it into a few questions: 1) Which bike, SV or XB, would make the more economical/sensible basis for a track day bike? 2) given the bikes were paid for and you were given say $5000 to spend on modifications, which of the SV and the XB would, after modifications be the more competent/faster/better handling track day bike? 3) Given a full, no punches pulled, all the $$ you need support, would it be possible to make an XB competitive against liter Superbikes 4) does Cecil keep Brian awake at night? Or is it the other way around? Henrik | ||
| Choptop |
So, have you RIDDEN a Mille or 999? | ||
| Eeeeek |
Even if you threw all $7,000 into the engine, I still don't think the XB would be competetive against a stock Mille Factory. Hell, not even a Mille R, which is $4,000 cheaper. Ohlins forks - $2,000+ Ohlins Shock ~ $1,000 Leaving you ~ $4,000 for everything else. Double that budget an the XB would still loose. Oh, wait, I HAVE data to support this, from Sears Point: Mille: 196 E SCHWANBECK, SCOTT A04 1:46:418 XB 21 E REILLY, SHAWN HD03 1:47:022 Scott was on a stock Mille, that he just bought weeks before the race. Shawn was on an XB that had MUCH more than $7,000 into it. Shawn is the better of the two riders, noone would dispute that. Just for giggles, here another Mille, too, and at the same race: Mille 277 E PFEIFER, JACK A04 1:42:888 JAck told me his engine was stock. I didn't ask about anyting else. And oh, yeah, a guy was there with a brand new 999R. Here are his times: 501 E MC LEAN, CRAIG D05 1:40:670 So what excuse do you have now? Vik (Message edited by eeeeek on May 20, 2005) | ||
| Josh_ |
Looks competitive to me. Or were we arguing that the XB would win? | ||
| Eeeeek |
How is 5+ seconds a lap slower competetive? Additionally, that particular BUell has a LOT more than $7,000 into it. I put Scott in there because I knew his Mille was dead stock. I also knew that he was not a faster rider than Shawn. Jack's bike has a stock engine and still has the stock suspension; but, it may have been reworked, I don't know. Some people would argue that Jack is a better rider; but, I don't know. Both Jack and Shawn have shown decent result at AMA Nationals and I don't think they've gone head to head. They are close in abilities. M1 made the statement: "Personally... I think that Buell would SMASH the stock Mille (RSV 1KR) or 999." Well, the highly modified Buell did not SMASH the stock Mille and it sure as hell wasn't competetive with Jack, whose bike was very close to stock if not stock. (Message edited by eeeeek on May 20, 2005) | ||
| Henrik |
It was a clear evening with a temperature in the mid 70's and not much humidity, a perfect night for a race. You know it's going to happen eventually and there is nothing you can do about it. You just can't get two bikes or two cats together and not expect a race. In this case it was a pair of black and white '91 Tabby Shorthairs. The first is skinny, lightweight, high-strung and corners well, much like a TZ250. The second is more like a Katana 750, bigger, more powerful, but not known for its handling. Neither has traction control. The starting line was behind the couch in the living room. This was the final race of the evening. Both get a good launch without much wheel spin due to the high traction coefficient carpeting. Kat, using his raw power, pulls out an early lead as they pass the coffee table. The first corner is a 90-degree lefthander around the Lazy Boy exiting toward the dining room. This is where TZ uses his superior cornering speed to gain ground. Exiting turn one, TZ is right on Kat's tail. Down the straight TZ pulls even with Kat but is unable to pass. Heading into turn two, a 45-degree right-hander around the dining table and exiting toward the kitchen, TZ out-brakes Kat and takes the lead. Exiting the corner TZ follows a bad line and swings wide. Kat gets an excellent drive out of the corner and pulls up on the inside of TZ heading into the transition area. Here the track surface goes from high traction carpet to low traction linoleum in the kitchen. This is where it all went wrong. TZ was hard on the gas and must have had the front-end a little crossed up going over the carpet edging bump. And without a steering damper he immediately went into the worst catslapper I have ever seen. His nickname after this will be "Crazy Paws". Kat, now at wide open, is startled by this bizarre event and is distracted just as he is going into three, the dreaded 180-degree kitchen hairpin. But he is carrying too much speed and panics, grabs the front brakes, and lowsides into the recycling bin. There is a horrendous crash as the aluminum can crash barriers are sent flying all over the track. At this point TZ has pulled himself together, skips turn three completely, and is heading for the finish line at the basement stairs. Kat, due to sheer terror, puts on an incredible show of acceleration exiting three and is gaining on TZ toward the finish. But Kat is unable to catch TZ. Kat's tail section has puffed up to three times its normal size, increasing wind resistance and limiting his top speed. TZ crosses the finish line first with Kat one cat length behind. Even though the race was officially over, neither lets up until they reach the safety of the pit area down in the basement. Once back at the pits they both take a few minutes to refuel and top off their fluids. I take this opportunity to prevent further racing by closing the paddock door to the basement. I then head back to turn three to work cleanup. It is obvious that they both have serious handling problems in the kitchen. Do you think that new pads will help or do I need to have them repawed? Shamelessly copied and pasted by Henrik |
