| Author | Message | ||
     Anon_R |
dojodog, Check out http://www.motorcyclefun.com/ R | ||
| Dojodog |
Ramon - next time you're at the dealer, ask for a copy of the '02 Buell parts catalog; that's where I found them. Manchester HDB had a couple pairs in stock. R - thank you; that's exactly what I was looking for, though $300 strikes me as a bit steep for what's essentially a HD sales pitch! Skip | ||
| Blastin |
Well it was just a matter of time before the "Rocker Box Bug" bit. 3890 miles to be exact. Got home from work yesterday and smelled some oil burning. Sure enough took a look at the motor and the rocker box was weeping. I just washed the bike on Saturday and I had noticed a darkening just below the rocker box. The kind of dark spot caused by oil. Kept an eye on it after taking a short ride and it didn't worsen. Rode home from work yesterday and it was definitely there. Called the dealership at 4:30p.m. and the service manager said "if you can get it here by 5:30p.m. we'll take care of it" Nobody else was home and the neighbor was busy. Damn. Called back and he said drop it off in the morning. Dropped it off this morning and he said that most likely it would be done today unless for some reason he didn't have the parts, too bad I've got class tonight. Asked him if they could use a metal gasket and he said no. Not even if I provided the gasket either. I guess I got a dealer who won't use any non Harley parts. I kind of knew this when I asked if they could put my Pirellis on. They said only stock tires can go on. I can't complain too much because this time it is warranty work, and everytime I have called for service I have been able to go on my schedule and not theirs. Which is pretty cool. And dropping the bike off this morning and being told it probably would be done tonight was nice to hear, too bad I have class tonight. I need the bike back quick because I am leading a ride for my BRAG club on Sunday, and it will probably be at least a 300 mile day. I guess I will find out if the paper gasket will last if installed properly. At least that is what I have heard and read several times. We will see. I'll give it a shot this time, but if it happens again it will be a metal gasket going back on. Jerry | ||
| Sarodude |
Is anyone as bugged by the uneven mirrors on their Blast? Bot of our Blasts have brake / clutch levers adjusted even with each other yet the one mirror is further forward than the other - I can't remember which. -Saro | ||
| Mikej |
Jerry, Need me to pick it up for you? I'm in the van today. The muffler/tailpipe sort of halfway fell off as I pulled into the parking lot at work here, but I've got it somewhat strapped up off the pavement. No problem to swing by the dealer's and pick it up as long as it will fit inside the van (might have to remove the mirrors). Let me know. mail I need to be home by 6pm for a telephone call, but could drop it off at your place after that. If it's where I think it is, it's pretty much right on my way home. MikeJ | ||
| Blastin |
MikeJ-You've got mail | ||
| Mikej |
Got it. | ||
| Prof_Stack |
Blastin - welcome to the Rocker Box Club! No problems on mine after 500 miles. Stock filter is usually not the problem. It is proper placement, attachment, and head torque. Although my Buell tech denies it, I think the Blast motor doesn't like too much oil in the frame. Keep checking the stick after rides and keep the level between the marks. | ||
| Xgecko |
8000-8500 miles plus a crash and another 250 since then and I still haven't had any rockerbox problems. Chalk it up to to much oil. They (the dealer) filled the filter before they added the two quarts of oil. Doing this will result in too much oil in the system and an eventual blown Rocker Box Gasket (at least that's what the told me. Anyway the Blast is doing fine I spent an hour tonight using Mother's on various metal parts to remove corrosion from places. No luck on my pipe but the can looks good. My front Pulley is starting to look real good I may not need to buy a cover just polish it pretty. The old oil from a summer of sitting was Black I've never seen oil from my Blast look that way. Tempted to change it again in 500 miles or so just to insure it (the engine) is clean | ||
| Aaron |
Did you guys see these pictures? And you still think it's got to do with things like assembly placement & oil level? Those pictures show exactly what I see every time I've fixed one. I don't know how anyone can look at those pics and conclude anything other than the box is moving around. A steel gasket can tolerate the movement without distorting, a paper gasket can't. AW | ||
| Sarodude |
I haven't looked at the service manual for a while so I can't remember what it says about rocker box gaskets. I do have 2 questions / suggestions: 1) Has anyone tried some heavy axle grease ? 2) Has anyone tried glue? 3) Has anyone tried gluing one side and greasing the other? For all you folks complaining about rocker box gasket leaks, at least you have a rocker box to leak!  Also, see exhaust section for a Bub's pipe impression... -Saro | ||
| Blake |
Aaron: The gasket and box certainly are moving around. But why?... Improper torque, wet surface during install, rockerbox warped during install? Those pics indicate a terribly faulty install to me. Again, looking at the incredible clamping forces involved, I can't imagine how a dry gasket with a pressure sensitive adhesive bead on one side would ever allow motion between a properly torqued rockerbox and cylinder head. But, I could be wong. Way to go with the NOX runs!!! | ||
| Aaron |
I guess I just have a really hard time believing it's improper torque. That would be *so* easy to fix. And this is a long term problem that affects a very high percentage of the bikes. That's the signature of a design issue. Thanks! AW | ||
| Blake |
Hopefully someday the factory will come clean and let us know. Someone put a webcam on the rockerbox assy station. | ||
| Aaron |
Blake, I'm not certain they even know. I've heard two different stories from two different people. That was over a year ago, though, perhaps they understand it better by now. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Aaron... my gaskets (in the pics) looked like a combination of both movement and shrinkage. I think the shrinkage was what finally cost the gasket it's ability to seal. Look how badly the holes are "ovalized" in the shots... that is some serious deformation. You can also see where movement rubbed a decent sized ridge into the gasket by pushing material up, but that was over 7000 miles, and there was plenty of material left, so I bet it would have held for at least another 7000 miles. I suspect deformation and movement both causing the premature failures. Bill | ||
| Aaron |
Bill, You don't think the bolt hole was "ovalized" because it was moving and then hit a bolt? I do. Regardless of the failure mode though, I think we agree, a steel gasket addresses the problem. AW | ||
| Mikej |
I think this has been covered before, but why not just use something like the Pigtails used on the base gaskets for the rocker covers? Or go to a shouldered bolt to reduce the movement? Just some thoughts. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Pictures I had a whole response typed in explaining why I think it was shrinkage, and you talked me out of it without saying a word. Look at the top shot. It is obvious from the darkened (must have been exposed) parts of the gasket (along the bottom) that the entire gasket migrated towards the bottom of the picture. It moved quite a bit. Eventually, it moved far enough that there was no gasket left sealing the front of the rocker box and the leak starts. Looking at the middle picture, you can see clearly how a significant ridge has been built up in two places, both assymetrically, indicating the gasket was being pushed that direction. I think Blake described his failure exactly this same way, but blamed it on improper installation. I think the installation is aligned, but vibration pushes them out one side. Wonder if it has anything to do with the uniplaner mounting system translation all motion along the front to back axis of the bike. Think about the front rocker box and it's inherit slope.... When the engine is being pushed backwards, the engine can be thought of as moving down and away from the sloped rocker box surface. When the engine is then pushed back forward, the engine can be thought of as moving up and into the rocker box. To explain it another way, think of a tire ramp and a basketball. Put the basketball half way up the tire ramp. If you give the ramp a hard push such that the basketball is moving uphill, the basket ball takes quite a shot and absorbs a lot of force. Push the ramp such that the ball is moving downill, and the ball just kinda falls as the ramp moves out from under it. The forces are VERY assymetrical, and those rocker boxes have a non-trivial amount of inertia. The back jug would be the opposite, but would still be deliver substantially more force to drive the rocker box gasket towards the center of the V then it does trying to move it away from the V. Do both rocker box gaskets migrate toward the center of the V? This could just be a result of a quirk of the Uniplaner mounting system. I wonder if the metal gaskets fix this simply because they wear better against this type of movement, and because being stiffer they resist deformation better (delaying the actual leak). They also probably allow the rocker box to slide around a little more freely, which would cause less deformation on the gasket. | ||
| Aaron |
Bill, I can't comment on your theory, but I will point out that the problem exists on Sportsters as well, and they don't use the uniplanar mounting. Also, it sure seems to be more prevalent on the pushrod side, for whatever reason. You'd think if it was an installation issue it would be equally prevalent on the spark plug side. AW | ||
| Blastin |
My leak was on the valve side, if that makes any differnce. Just picked the bike up and will go give it a test ride tonight. Jery | ||
| Xgecko |
A while back there was some mention of other oil filters that could be substituted for the OEM one. I'm asking because I'll be moving overseas and I'm trying to find parts available there. | ||
| Blake |
Bill: The one (out of 12 possible) rockerbox gasket failures on my three M2's was VERY localized. The gasket was firmly clamped in place, there was only a small, maybe 1/2" length of it right at the sharp corner (location of leak)that had been wetted. Distinct imprints of the faying surfaces into the gasket and the punched out (not elongated) piece of gasket at the bolt hole indicated that the gasket had been installed this way from the start. No way the rockerbox was moving relative to the cyl head in my case. See description in my Saturday, September 08, 2001 - 02:50 pm post on the "Engine - Mechanical" page. With the total clamping load calculated, and even a moderate coefficient of friction, say 0.2, the g forces required to cause slippage between the rockerbox and cyl head would need to exceed 1,632 LBs just on the pushrod side (0.2 * 8,160 LB clampload, see my post referenced above). Add another 2,832 LBs (0.2*14,160 LB clampload) for the valve side and you get a total of 4,464 LBs of dynamic load required to shift the rockerbox. The rockerbox weighs what, around 4.4 LBs? That gives you 4,464/4.4=1,000 g's of vibration level, parallel to the faying surfaces required to cause the sliding. Seems unlikely doesn't it, unless the surfaces are wet and/or improperly torqued? The coefficient of friction, with oil wetting would be way lower, so reasonable levels of vibration could then cause the rockerbox to move relative to the cyl head. | ||
| Prof_Stack |
I just love the rockerbox gasket discussion. That's what makes this forum so useful. An independent Harley mechanic (who sounded like Sam Elliott in a bad mood) told me that he uses the OEM paper gaskets because they lasted as long as the metal ones he had tried. That's just one data point, but interesting to note. | ||
| Hans |
Same info I got once from a trusted dealership: After a run through the repair database they had more than 100, if I remember well 136, rockerbox gasket replacements for sportsters and Buells in a couple of years, they used only original paper gaskests for replacement and got only TWO back for the same fault. Hans. | ||
| Aaron |
Guys, if you're considering changing rocker box gaskets, you might just hold off for a few weeks. | ||
| Blastin |
Too late for me Aaron. So what you got up your sleeve in a couple weeks? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Blake.... I buy all the math... but if you look at that middle shot I posted, it is extremely obvious that the rocker box was moving and rubbed quite a ridge into the gasket... so somehow that rocker box was moving around up there... (sorry blasters for polluting your forum with all the rocker box talk...) Bill | ||
| Aaron |
Jerry: just trust me! | ||
| Phillyblast |
See, now this is why (if the ever-cryptic Mr. Wilson is saying what I think he's saying)I was so dissapointed that my rocker box gasket went early (2200 miles). Darn things just gonna come off again anyway :-) And also why I didn't push the dealer to install a James gasket. I made the appropriate phone calls last night, and the blast will share space over the winter with an 85 honda interceptor in need of a cosmetic overhaul, and a chopper in need of a new motor. I pick up my keys next week and wait for the first snowfall. |
