| Author | Message | ||
     Rich Cadie (Rich) |
That's right, and thanks alot. Rich | ||
| Arvel L. Williams (S2no1) |
Court, Thanks for the call. I like to hear you opinion on concurrent schedules on the HOG Rally and the Buell Homecoming. I was going to try and schedule my vacation to attend homecoming, but with two littles ones I'm not really interested in being there during the HOG rally. Seems a shame that HD can't realize they need a different philosphy in selling these bikes. Arvel | ||
| Bryan T Nill (Loki) |
Court, Just got my hands on the NOV ThunderPress, liked the column. In fact the entire Buell section was thought provoking. loki | ||
| Court (Court) |
Arvel: "When you are a hammer, the whole world appears as a nail" One of the mindset maladies under which the good folks of Harley-Davidson are suffering is the, in my personal opinion, that Buell owners and Harley-Davidson owners, with motorcycles as a common bond, see the same types of activities and products as "satisfies". T'aint so. Recent letters from dealers, owners and Buell employees leads me to believe that there are tons of folks who WANT to love Buells and their Buells. Employees are confused, owners feel betrayed and dealers a combination of both. I had LOTS of Harley-Davidson's. Loved'em and still do. But, mixing the HD owners and the Buell owners is akin to mixing the owners of Citabria's and Citation's at an event. Simply fails to respect the individual wants and needs of each group. I tried, to no avail, to explain it this way once..... Most (MOST) Harley-Davidson owners, if they won a Buell in a contest would do what? I'd suggest sell it. Not because it is in anyway lacking, it's just not their style of riding. It has little/no value TO THEM. Most (MOST) Buell owners, if they won a Harley-Davidson in a contest would do what? I'd suggest sell it. Not because it is in anyway lacking, it's just not their style of riding. It has little/no value TO THEM. Buell events are planned, run and their success measured by folks who's paychecks say HARLEY-DAVIDSON MOTOR CO. These folks, whether conscious or unconscious goal while assigned to Buell is to make as few waves as possible and return the their HD "duty station" with no blackmarks on personnel files. As I phrased it in a memo once, HD personnel, well paid and comfy in the HD environment, when assigned to the Buell "tree" are unlikely to climb out on a limb and saw with much vigor. HD's success, at present as well it should be, is in the "protect and defend. It's working, don't mess it up" mode. Buell, on the other hand, is rooted in entrepreneurial thinking and requires innovation and creativity. What I hate about this discussion is that the small mind misconstrues it as an affront to Harley-Davidson. Nothing could be further from the truth. A read of Rich Teerlink's "Well Made In America" reveals the genius that saved HD. That genius is alive and well today. The HD folks I worked with were, without exception, talented and committed. In the Buell arena however, their competence at HD served, in some cases, created a "negative transfer" of knowledge. My USMC Rifle instructor often said the hardest person to train was someone who had shot before. Buell folks, I submit, want events that are different from Harley-Davidson owners. Ditto . . . the way customer-factory relationship is handled . . . the way info moves . . . accessories . . . . parts . . . performance expectations from the factory AND the dealers. What Harley-Davidson does is PERFECT for Harley-Davidson. The Legend didn't just happen, talent created it and perpetuates it. I think now, with dealers tossing their hands in the air and top dealers dropping or taking a serious 2nd look at Buell, demos cancelled, all (or most....no one seems to be able to sort it all out) on recall that the HD execs will take a hard look at putting Erik back in command of Buell. A simple read of the columns in Thunder Press last month reveals the depth of the concern. The genius is there. The talent is there. The resources are there and the market is there. With respect to loading two kidlets up and heading to Milwaukee....well, that's a personal decision. I had the suburban loaded one-year. The XLCR, XR-1000 and a very trick Sportster on the trailer. We got up at 5am and headed toward Sturgis. About Omaha, as the discussion, progressed, it became evident that "taking the boys to the Black Hills" and having to wait in line for a couple hours to get into town made little/no sense. Trip aborted. Conversely, one of the best times we ever had was the H.O.G. rally in Breckenridge. I took the FLHTC and a Sporty and we had a fabulous time. I went to a Harley event to do the "Harley Thing" and it was fabulous. Then again . . . I could be wrong. Court | ||
| Daniel Dunn (Buelliedan) |
Court, Very well said!! Your way with the words is beautiful and always able to get me to think. The one thing I would like to add to though is how HD and Buell are getting mixed together. It's more like the relationship inside GM. How do you think Corvette owners would feel if they were told that they no longer had their own club. Instead they would just be lumped into the Chevy owners group!! After all, their engines are Chevy and they are sold by Chevy dealers so they should feel "part of the Chevy team"!! I consider my Buell to be the Corvette of HD. All HD needs to do is look at how Chevy treats Corvettes in comparison to other Chevys and they will know what to do!! Dan 99S3 00X1 | ||
| BB |
Court: Regarding the SRP, the explanation that Daniel received from the dealer was not untrue, just incomplete. The wording of B-035 (Service Bulletin) evidently relayed by that dealer covers only situations regarding recalls 0817 (Shock Eye) and 0820 (SRP); B-035 was not meant to cover replacement of SRP-modified shocks, except where the shock itself needs "service." Word from the factory is that there will be another Service Bulletin coming at a later date for "cosmetic" replacement. | ||
| Sean Pepper (Rocketman) |
Court, I belive your last statement was correct, and I quote "then again, I could be wrong". You talk of small mindedness, but yet you seem to overlook two very obvious relationships here, and one not so obvious. 1: Your Buell has a Harley Davidson motor. In fact, Buell's had a HD motor since its creation. As I recall, it's what EB wanted. 2: Buell is owned by Harley Davidson. And the not so obvious one, 3: Lots of Buell owners came off Harley's, and some are still fortunate enough to own both. If folks don't like Harley's that much, why don't they just sell their Buell's, because at the end of the day, like it or not it is powered by Harley, and there are still some of us left that are proud to own a motorcycle with a Harley motor and I'm one of them. Don't get me wrong, I'd still love to see a super Buell with a new watercooled motor, as we have all debated over in the past, but I'd still want it to be a Harley motor wether it said Buell on the crankcase or not ! Let me ask you all, and think of the Raptor as I do, which bears the trappings of mass production, and I'm not that impressed with it personally, and it is powered by a Suzuki V twin motor(one of the ugliest looking V's in production), how many of you Buellers would prefer your Buell with a TL 1000 motor rather than the HD 1200 EVO powerplant ? Go on , I dare you all to answer ! Rocket in England | ||
| Jasonl (Jasonl) |
Rocket - Come on...don't resort to silly little challenges to try for responses. Christ, if you're statements and ideas are intriguing enough we'll answer. Buell powered by TL huh? I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. I mean if I wanted a TL I would've bought one. Then again the flat tracker TL's aren't such bad bikes really. They flat out haul on long tracks with little more than a fluid change. I'm with you though. I like the EVO motor because it is so simple. I would like to see some minor fixes but I didn't want to buy a Honda with no personality even if it's as reliable as an anvil. I know that sounds goofy but it's true. I'd rather have some finicky character than something so boring. Buell will have to evolve to survive at the very least. Some would say that it needs to revolutionize and then evolve. There may be some truth to that too. So in that case the S1 is dead as a new model. The X1 will also eventually die but hopefully by then we'll have something else along the lines of the Aprilia Falco that I just read about in Performance Bikes. If I had my druthers I'd have to say I'd like a new motor from Buell that put out more power but was still a brute. I don't want a gazillion revs with no trq. How about more of what we have now? I would like to see Buell build the performance opposite of the Jap4. Low-revving trq monsters. But we also can't forget it's got to turn well too. Cake and eat it too? As far as the HD arguement goes...HD didn't build my bike. They own Buell, yes. But I'm not riding an HD bike. Did having a Ford motor in the Pantera and Cobra make them Fords? Don't think so. Did having a mercury motor in the ZR1 'Vette make it a mercury (hence a Ford) product? Nope. So for saying Buell's are Harleys isn't correct. Erik built my bike and he didn't get design ideas from HD styling (thank god). These are Erik Buell's creations that have been purchased by HD. They use a good and distinctive power plant made by HD but thats it. Thats the way I like it. | ||
| Court (Court) |
Rocket: I loved ALL my Harley-Davidson's, still do. In fact, since working with many of the fine folks as Harley, I likely appreciate them more. Harley-Davidson has kept Erik Buell's dream alive and I love the Harley motor. It's characteristics showcase the Buell's strong points and don't think for one minute I don't love the sound. My point is NOT that Harley-Davidson is "bad" for Buell, just like (see the Chevrolet & Corvette analogy) that they are ridden by folks who view differing things as satisfying in their motorcycling experience and it's been difficult for HD, given their HD mindset ( a good thing for them) to recognize and respond. Don't for one minute think the people resources aren't there, they are. Some of the folks that HD assigned to Buell are some of the best, it's further down the line (say where the t-shirts are designed and where axle covers come from) that the problem lies. HD has made huge strides by adding folks like Bud DeBoer, Bill Bailey and bringing Leslie Prevish on board. These folks work there tails off against considerable odds. In addition, Buell has a huge public perception problem to overcome. I'm confident they can do it, but it needs to start at the corporate-dealer level. Thanks....I'll keep the engine I got and I, for one, am not as eager as some for a super-rad Buell motor. I am not a racer, I am a rider and the V-Twin 1203cc "speaks" to my soul....well, what's left of it. Hey...how about you drag your tail over here and ride with us...hehehehe. Good dialouge, Court | ||
| Sean Pepper (Rocketman) |
Lead Belly, it isn't a stupid little challenge, it is a serious question aimed at folks who seem to have miss placed their loyalty to Harley Davidson. I understand what you are saying in your post, but I think you misunderstood my reference to Buell and Harleys relationship as companines, not products. I absolutely would like Buell to be an indipendent company, and as I've said before on many occasions, a smaller one at that, and as far as I'm concerned I don't have a problem with Harley Davidson being the parent company, but I would also not like to see them (HD) interfering in Buell products. In this new global world where all the automotive manufacturers are joining into a handful of large corporations, it would seem to be the best thing to do for Buell as a company, to remain under the HD wing. Plenty of examples of this such as Aston Martin or Jaguar under the Ford banner, but there are drawbacks to these relationships that I don't need to explain here, mainly because it comes down to personal choice on how you like your vehicles, but I'd much rather have an Aston DB7 that hadn't been copied by Jaguar's XK8. Two different cars altogether, but to the uninitiated, they look very similar. The Aston of course, is far more exclusive and hand built, to a point, where as the Jag is mass produced, and in a few years from now, will be about as valuable as what an XJS is now, worthless ! Not the same for the Aston though, that will always command a premium price, because it is a premium car unlike the Jag, which is flawed in this example because of its mass production. But at the end of the day, do we really need both brands ? Well, maybe in the car world it is ok, but in the motorcycle world, I belive Buell should remain untouched by outside influences that are more a part of bean counting and market forces ! However, until Buell build there own engine or not, I think it is very important that Buell's are powered by Harley motors, simply because that is one of Buell's traditional values, but let's not forget, as you pointed out, these Harley motors are totaly unique and are important in developing the relationship betwixt rider and machine and perhaps for that tactile reason, part of the myth that attracts so many people to the Buell brand ! Rocket in England | ||
| Arvel L. Williams (S2no1) |
Court, Thanks for the opinion. Good advice also. Since my little ones are less than 7, I don't think that 2 hours to get into town is going to cut it. I'll consider one of the other BRAG events for next year. Have you decided on what you want for a track bike? I looked at some Jap Bikes, I don't think I would survive those bikes. Dan, Your analogy is correct. Let's call Aaron and get one of his front skis. Cloudcroft is under frozen water. Rocket, I've literally rode on HD products from the age of three. As a family we bought basket cases and built them, all brands. Still have several in the garage at the old farm. Even like some of the new HD stuff, just can not see spending 13-20k for a bike(although I am confused by the Screamin Eagle). But I ride(when work allows), some HD owners also ride. But the riding style and needs are different. How many HD FLHTC owners have you seen who talk about there stoppies and wheelies and drag racing? Not many. HD needs to adjust their business and marketing model to match their potential clients. Right now they are trying what has worked in the past. That may not work with Buell and probably won't work with a younger potential buyer. Since York is flooded, come play over here. I need to see you do that riding backward trick in the rain. Arvel | ||
| Josh Andrews (Josh_) |
>Did having a mercury motor in the ZR1 'Vette make it a mercury (hence a Ford) product? Nope. I believe that was Mercury *Marine* not Ford's Mercury divison. Rocket, while you may want Buell to remain exclusive, Erik wants everyone to be able to buy one. What was that quote from him about wanting to be Mr. Honda? Oh, Arvel >How many HD FLHTC owners have you seen who talk about their stoppies and wheelies and drag racing? Did ya know that the current HD body for TopFuel Drag bikes was the FLHTC? (Previous body was a Buell S3) Fastest Bagger you'll ever see ;) Josh 99 S3T his 00 Blast! hers 96 Hugger 883/1200 ours | ||
| Jasonl (Jasonl) |
I think we agree on a lot of things here: 1- Buell's rock. 2- The Evo motor is a good design that fulfills what we want as a rider. Court, you seem to agree here as well. 3- We like distinctive products. I'm all for Buell being under the wing of HD. In this time you are correct in stating that market share is power. Bigger players demand respect and survive trying times better. Being bigger also allows more efficiency and more access to more resources. Hopefully HD will allow this to go on with BMC. But then we run into Court's "Spank The Baby" msg. This being that with Buell being owned by HD we are under the influence of marketing that is geared more towards appearance and style than performance and function. But by your statement Rocket do you feel that we should owe allegiance to the controlling company? I guess my question is should we feel this way? Your analogy of Jaguar - Ford and Buell - HD is really right on in my opinion. But much like that marriage I guess it depends on who you talk to as to whether the good outweighs the bad. In both cases, Buell and Jaguar, it seemed that the companies needed more $$ to keep things going. In this case I feel we do owe them gratitude at least. But on the other hand by trying to make Buell and Jaguar profitable will the parent company change the purpose pursued before the take over? Will customers accustomed to connolly leather and top shelf suspensions stay loyal through the changes dictated? We'll see. I think this speaks to your point of isolating Buell from bean counters and other foolishness. Buell needs to be profitable but they have to have a product worth selling first. I hope that HD has enough sense to see that Buell is a completely different company with different riders. Most Buell riders I know don't "aspire" to owning a big twin until they're over 55, if ever. Much like most Mustang owners don't aspire to owning a Jaguar or Volvo S40. (Ford bought a controlling interest in Volvo as well if I remember correctly) Maybe the HD - Buell marriage would be better off if HD left Buell alone to create and design instead of strangling them with restrictive policies. We all know the cruiser guys finance the sport side of motorcycling. By being satisfied with 1970's style braking systems they finance the research for racing efforts and mass production. If HD wants a winning, performing, sister company they'll need to finance some R&D that isn't focused on appearances. Let me ask you this...If Buell came out with a new design, and knowing that we need progress not regression, what would you like to see them build? Would you like to see a more Brutish S1 or something along the lines of a more refined S3? How could you accomplish both with a minimum of cost and R&D? | ||
| Sean Pepper (Rocketman) |
Phew, plenty of scribling ! Arvel : I should really consider myself lucky as a Brit where Harleys are concerned. I also assume in this, that perhaps us Brit's see Buell and Harley as much closer relations than the American folks do. HARLEY'S Sure we get the new style of owner, weekend cowboys, and yet we still have a lot of Harley's owned by the real biker folks, the ones that eat , breathe and sleep 'em ! We see Harley's in a lot of different ways and yet they're all the same. It's just the order of importance attached to those ways, and how they suit our functional and social environments, that dictates how the perception ends up to any of us. For me, I'd say in the UK a hot Harley is one that is built up by its owner, wether it be based on a production model or a frame build up, that not only has the trappings of the stereotypical Easy Rider appearance, but has a lot of importance placed on its porformance capabilities. Seldom do I come across a true custom build Hog that has not had serious motor treatment. It's as if an unwritten law existed to all who build such creations, that says "thou shall build with venom and flame", otherwise those creators that don't follow this law be shamed by heckles of "all show 'n' no go !" In the UK, even for a Harley, the PERFORMANCE factor is very important. Rarely is a Harley sold new in the UK without the Stage 1 hop up. Obviously, US polution control is more strict than ours, and I'm sure the salesman "pushes" a lot of new buyers into the Stage 1 purchase, but never the less, the prospective purchaser on this side of the pond knows he wants some more performance for his soon to be purchased Hog ! So it seems by my reckonings, us Brit Hog owners do talk of performance and power, but I might concede the wheelie\stoppie thing !  Josh : For me he's wrong and I've never agreed with that Honda philosophy ! As far as I'm concerned, the mass production thing is a "bridge too far" and if that is really EB's intent, I really can't understand why. Nothing he has done in the past, except sell 98% to Harley Davidson, makes me belive this is his goal. Why bother anyway, hasn't the world got enough Honda 50's ? Lead Balloon :You've got it, great post. S1 Brute Lightning ? S3 Thunder Brute ? You know exactly how Buell could do this, but isn't the question, WHAT WILL BUELL DO AS WELL AS DO THIS ? or, CAN BUELL JUST DO THIS ? Rocket in England | ||
| Court (Court) |
I am not trying to be difficult, but I've been inundated with e-mail and, seriuosly, I do NOT know the answer. FACT: The below is a direct quote from the documents that Buell filed with NHTSA. QUESTION: From reading this, do you think a Buell owner would expect to receive a new shock, to replace the SRP, after the shock had been developed. AVAILABLE CHOICES OF ANSWERS: A) Yes B) No UNAVAILABLE CHOICES OF ANSWERS: Any sort of wordy, "well, ya gotta understand that...." dialouge. Yes or no ? What do you think ? Court Component: SUSPENSION:MOTORCYCLE REAR Manufacturer: BUELL MOTORCYCLE CO. Dealers will install a shock reinforcement package (SRP) which protects the structual integrity of the suspension system. A new shock absorber is currently being developed. When the new shock absorber is available, if an owner choses, they can have it installed at no charge through the dealer network. | ||
| Dusty Rhoades (Dustykat) |
Ok, My .25 cents. Having worked in an R&D dept for about 8 months now. I can say a few things with certainty. 1> Tooling is Expensive 2> R&D is Expensive 3> Bean counters want SURE THINGS to pay off that tooling cost. 4> Beating the bean counters AINT EASY! Dusty 00 X1 red/white stripe. | ||
| John Rosberg (Bomber) |
Dusty . . .having worked in/around manufacuring environment for quite awhile now, I have to agree with all your points . . . . . further, as a guy who likes workiong for companies that don't bounce pay-checks, I'm not sure I WANT to beat the bean counters too often . . . . . although the Corvette image has been discussed here lately, I wonder if HD could look at Buell the way Chrysler used to look at their fringe projects . . . .Viper, Prowler, PT Cruiser . . . . it's clear that some of the R&D guys in Chrysler were having a gas, and at least one of those projects paid off, and paid off BIG! I wonder if the folks in Germany will allow those kind of high-jinks to continue . . . . .. rosberg | ||
| Court (Court) |
If you had to point to one of Dusty's most excellent observations, as it relates to Buell, it has to be TOOLING. Everything else . . . business case . . . beancounters . . . etc flows from how, and more importantly IF, the tooling expense can be amortized over the product life cycle. This, boys and girls, explains many things Buell. Dreams are great, but sooner or later they must: 2) Produce profits 3) Contribute to EPS The Chrsyler experience has been detailed in Bob Lutz's book GUTZ. I've been, in perpetuity, cast in that role of Corporate Change Agent and happily so. I'd love to see the Buell assigned HD folks directed to read a couple books.... First - GUTZ by Bob Lutz Second -CUSTOMERS.COM by Patricia Seybold Third - UP THE ORGANIZATION by Robert Townsend (Sure, Townsend is outta print but I've loaned by personal copy to several folks at Buell) Thosoe 3 would do it for now. We'll get to the one's on internet law (The Code) and others later..... Court | ||
| Peter thomas (Peter_t) |
If Buell built a bike with the TL1000 motor in it I would buy it tomorrow. A great motor. As for harleys? I've ridden one and the experience convinced me never to bother with another one. The buell suits me. OK handling, good ergonomics and fun for sunday cruising. The only thing that lets it down is the poor motor. I don't need more horsepower but I do need more reliability. Fitting a Tl1000 motor would make a good bike a great bike. Pete T | ||
| Bryan T Nill (Loki) |
Bomber, With the downfall of the Plymouth badge next year and such. I have family in the Chrysler network, those little projects are all starting to pay-off in a big way. Viper, Prowler, PT Cruiser, new Power Wagon, and if the new Charger makes it. Thier success in doing these has got the the other two working hard. Ford had to do something so as not to lose the 'Shelby' name and now Chevy has got the SSR coming. So I do believe if HD treated Buell like this it would work and be proffitable. loki |
