| Author | Message | ||
     Ebmachine |
BMW and Suzuki also had a tough weekend. | ||
| Hughlysses |
In the press release about the race, Nic says his lap times were ~1/2 second quicker in the 2nd race, but apparently the exhaust pipe broke with one lap to go. Larry says he missed a shift and then snapped the chain in race 1, and he thinks the clutch went out in race two. Not a very good weekend, but at least Nic scored a point and there were no grenaded engines. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
So this is more of the same from last season, a lot of DNFs Coupled with the closure, who will be blamed for the poor performance this year (now that the Italian team is out)? | ||
| Tpoppa |
who will be blamed for the poor performance this year (now that the Italian team is out)? Excuses will be celebrated as moral victories on Badweb...as always. | ||
| Crusty |
Piss off. | ||
| Reepicheep |
What is your point Hybrid and Tpoppa? Are you asserting that there were not glaring execution errors by the Italian team (who were brought in based on their experience specifically to avoid the kind of mistakes they created)? Or are you saying that a new twin entered into WSBK should be dominating in it's second year? Or do you just like to celebrate when others try things with their own time and money, and fail? | ||
| Tpoppa |
What is your point Hybrid and Tpoppa? Part of my point is Badweb and reality are generally not in touch with each other. DNF? DNS? Last place? Grenaded motor? Closure? Hey that must be everybody/anybody's fault, except EB/EBR. Excuses are a freaking religion on Badweb. Perhaps if the Buell community wasn't so accepting of excuses...perhaps if bad decisions could actually be recognized and scrutinized...just maybe...Remind me to tell you sometime. | ||
| Classax |
What exactly do you want said? Exactly what impact will disparaging remarks against anyone add to the conversation? have there been failures? absolutely! The idea is to identify problems with an eye towards achieving innovative solutions not towards laying blame. That is the ethos of Badweb if there is one I would think. Meanwhile my prediction that Rea would be the man to beat may be final by the 7th round if he keeps this up. The guy is on fire! | ||
| Mackja |
And Suzuki is doing so well??? | ||
| Ljm |
I think I am closer to Tpoppa and Harry. I am not so concerned with breakage, although it would be great if a thoughtful approach to it would occur. I am more concerned with the fact that we are now a year down the road in this WSBK endeavor and no one really knows anything. I don't figure that we have to listen to a laundry list of problems, but it seems to me that some more communication about problems and fixes, and plans would keep people involved and interested. Communication is not a long suit of EBR in general as evidenced by the current problems with the closure. The very key stakeholders, i.e. dealers and owners have no idea what is going on, if there are any plans, or what. A little openness would probably build some confidence that there is someone looking ahead, both in racing and in the motorcycle business in general, not just reacting. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Yea, I've often been very frustrated with EBR's sparse communications, but I guess there are reasons for it. The very key stakeholders, i.e. dealers and owners have no idea what is going on, if there are any plans, or what. A little openness would probably build some confidence that there is someone looking ahead, both in racing and in the motorcycle business in general, not just reacting. We're getting somewhat OT here, but the lack of communication is being discussed over at ebrforum.com. As one guy put it, as frustrating as it must be to everyone involved, he sees the lack of communication as encouraging. In other words, if everything about EBR's present state was being published, it would probably mean there was no chance of the company being revived. The fact that NOTHING is being said may be an indication that some very high-stakes maneuvering is going on behind the scenes with the goal being to turn EBR over to a new owner lock, stock, and barrel. I have no idea, but this at least seems plausible. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm trying to say this as nicely as I can... No wait, no I'm not. What kind of idiot comes to a Buell Enthusiasts site and complains about Buell Enthusiasm? | ||
| Tpoppa |
What kind of idiot comes to a Buell Enthusiasts site and complains about Buell Enthusiasm? I'll say this as nicely as I can. Perhaps if someone would have pointed out that in 2014 a long stroke V2 was obsolete for purposes of WSBK racing...Perhaps race teams wouldn't have had to grossly over stress a motor that shouldn't have been in WSBK to begin with to the tune of awful results...Perhaps engineering and financial resources could have been more smartly utilized to manufacture core products with some mass market appeal and generate some much needed revenue... Just maybe there would still be a Buell/EBR for you to remain enthusiastic about. Now kindly replace the wool over your eyes and get back to blaming those damned eye-talians. “Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.” --Friedrich Nietzsche | ||
| Court |
Boy would facts •••• up this discussion ...... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Perhaps if someone would have pointed out that in 2014 a long stroke V2 was obsolete for purposes of WSBK racing... I know what you're saying, but since when is a stroke of ~0.6 of the bore "long"? (1190 is 106 bore x 67.5mm stroke). Holy crap- most of us are still riding V-twins with significantly under-square dimensions. Maybe it would be more accurate to say "a non-insanely short stroke V2 was obsolete..."  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think somebody grossly over-estimates the amount of sway a web forum has over the design parameters of engine manufacturers. I can see it now, Erik in a conference room with some of the best and brightest in the industry, telling them to go design a world superbike engine, but don't forget to go surf internet forums filled with amateurs and fans first so we can decide on the motor stroke dimensions! And are you seriously claiming there weren't serious problems with how the Italian team ran the race team? | ||
| Tpoppa |
I know what you're saying, but since when is a stroke of ~0.6 of the bore "long"? (1190 is 106 bore x 67.5mm stroke). Since the day after the Panigale was released would be my best guess. I think somebody grossly over-estimates the amount of sway a web forum has over the design parameters of engine manufacturers. I can see it now, Erik in a conference room with some of the best and brightest in the industry, telling them to go design a world superbike engine, but don't forget to go surf internet forums filled with amateurs and fans first so we can decide on the motor stroke dimensions! You miss my point. The Buell community includes employees and management, who need to balance engineering determination with sustainable business decisions. Boy would facts •••• up this discussion ...... Then please enlighten us, but brokering facts aren't exactly your strong suit either, are they? Hows this: Financially overextending yourself by incurring debt you can't pay yourself is a reckless way to run a business. It's compounded when you're basing decisions on the belief that (non-contractually guaranteed) funds are forth coming. Furthermore, spreading yourself too thin creates a unsustainable business footprint. Let's assume their was some hostile intent [Hero] to acquire EBR for pennies on the dollar. Business acumen should dictate that you do everything in your power to prevent yourself from getting into a situation from which the "rug can be pulled" with disastrous results. A lesson I thought was made painfully clear in 2009. I feel badly for the employees. I am disappointed that the only viable American motorcycles are of the chrome and leather variety. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds like an excellent plan to never start a motorcycle company, nor really do anything of significance in the long run. Nobody said starting Buell, or EBR, or any motorcycle company was a smart business of financial decision. Of course it's not. We didn't say it was smart. What we said was that it was awesome! I love that there are still people out there that will bet big in pursuit of their dreams, and who aren't afraid to risk "stuffing it in the last corner" in order to try and set a new lap record. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Sounds like an excellent plan to never start a motorcycle company, nor really do anything of significance in the long run. Nobody said starting Buell, or EBR, or any motorcycle company was a smart business of financial decision. Of course it's not. How many potential annual buyers are there for motorcycles in the US or Worldwide? Of that total, how large is the subset for sport bikes? Of that total, how large is the subset for V2 Super Bikes? What is left to keep your doors open?..1%?..less than that? There were wiser alternatives available. Why not a capable 50-60hp beginner bike with an up spec "R" version that may find it's way into a spec class (instead of the KTM 390). You could still release plenty of sexy 1190 teaser photos to create some marketing buzz, and build it when there was some financial momentum. | ||
| Tpoppa |
I was pretty certain it was over when I saw the price discounts on the RX and SX  | ||
| Hughlysses |
There were wiser alternatives available. Why not a capable 50-60hp beginner bike with an up spec "R" version that may find it's way into a spec class (instead of the KTM 390). You could still release plenty of sexy 1190 teaser photos to create some marketing buzz, and build it when there was some financial momentum. Wiser, but I'm guessing not practicable given the financial constraints EBR was working under, at least in the beginning. Erik purchased the rights to the Helicon when Buell was closed. His ownership of that engine led directly to the 1190RS and RX. They had to work with what they had. EBR's work with Hero resulted in a design just like you describe- the 650cc Hastur. I always figured there would be either a US-built version or at least an EBR-badged version. Perhaps EBR had a solid business plan based on the motorcycle designs they did for Hero being used to round out their offerings, and then Hero changed their mind? Given the choices of (a) retirement or (b) entering into a potentially risky business arrangement, only one results in any motorcycles getting built. (Message edited by Hughlysses on April 20, 2015) | ||
| Classax |
A: I'm tired of people who are supposed to be in the know not knowing simple facts that screw up the entire conversation. B. The stated goal of the WSbk was to develo the race bikes on track and to prove that what the stock bikes could do on the world stage. To wit someone will say but they don't race street bikse in WSBk they'll never make the grid . To wit I say EXACTLY. Are the street bikes capable of running at the front in WSBk? NOPE! But there are no other bikes on the grid that are capable making the grid in near near street form either. C) EBR did a terrible job of communicating to the world at large how different these bikes truly are and what they were trying to achieve in WSBk. D) I believe in you want a nation of people who build things and the jobs and salaries that go with that, you have buy the things your nation builds. It seems highly hypocritical that people who refused to invest in the company or the bikes when they were available, not would consider buying or even discussing it when the company and effectively the bikes are defunct. As far as EBR in WSBk goes its clear that you can either have peak Hp or tractable torque but not both. In WSBk peak HP reigns supreme. Does that mean you should not try to develop an old school twin in that environment? Not at all, push the design to limit so that the street bikes are better. D) You will note that the guys who are racing at the Non factory sponsored multi million dollar effort level are actually winning races on these things. | ||
| Tpoppa |
B. The stated goal of the WSbk was to develo the race bikes on track and to prove that what the stock bikes could do on the world stage. To wit someone will say but they don't race street bikse in WSBk they'll never make the grid . To wit I say EXACTLY. Are the street bikes capable of running at the front in WSBk? NOPE! But there are no other bikes on the grid that are capable making the grid in near near street form either. Not so sure I can agree with this. Are you saying that the EBRs being raced in WSBK were nearly stock. I don't believe that to be true, but if it is that would make the engine issues a MUCH, MUCH bigger concern. Nearly stock motors grenading does not sell motorcycles. If EBR was trying to prove the capabilities of a (nearly) stock bike, why not race in a super stock class? Apples to apples and all that sh*t. Perhaps I misread your meaning. I agree that there are significant development gains from racing at that level. There are also more cost effective ways to develop a motor. (Message edited by tpoppa on April 20, 2015) | ||
| Buelliedan |
the engine being raced in WSBK are 1190 RS engines not 1190 RX/SX engines. They are very close to what the stock 1190 RS came with from the factory | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"What is your point Hybrid and Tpoppa? Are you asserting that there were not glaring execution errors by the Italian team (who were brought in based on their experience specifically to avoid the kind of mistakes they created)? Or are you saying that a new twin entered into WSBK should be dominating in it's second year? Or do you just like to celebrate when others try things with their own time and money, and fail?" Why do you think we are celebrating their failures? Do I think a "2nd year bike" should be dominating, nah, thats silly. But I expected development from year 1 to year 2. They put a much better rider on the bike, and thats great, but there are more DNFs than finishes. I expected support for the race teams (I think it was in this thread that they couldnt get a part for the bikes and resulted in a DNS?). I do not celebrate their failures. I simply asked what excuses the people on here will pin on their failures this time around. We've already seen the "Well Canepa probably had a lot on his mind..." kind of stuff. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I think the idea was to get as much exposure as possible ....so EBR chose WSBK.... SUPERSTOCK races only the European rounds..For sure in SUPESTOCK, EBR would have been more competitive... As far the pont about the long stroke V-2 being uncompetitive in WSBK , I do not agree ....If the last generation of Ducatis 1198R were still be racing , they would do much better than the EBRs..... Carlos Checa have won a championship aboard a 1198R against V4s and IL4s just 3 years ago, and then the 1198R was penalized with 5kg ..... I am sure the 1198R would be more competitive than the 1199R these 3 last years, but Ducati decided to go the "no frame" path .... 1198Rs would still be able to run in the top6 , and challenge for wins ....For EBR, in my opinion , the real problem is the reliability, and the limitations DNFs bring to the team.. Of course there is room for improving the chassis setup.... For example, Canepa only uses the 2-disc , while last year ZTL was only used.... The real test for the EBR would be to put a Ducati long stroke 1198R engine, inside an EBR chassis...I wish EBR racing team could get help from Rotax for the motor, or maybe the motor needed a major redesign in the crankcases that EBR doesn't have the resources to do...Racing definately improves the motorcycle.... For me , even finishing 15th is better than not going racing....As soon as the WSBK rules allowed "fly by wire" and advanced electronics for the IL4s, the 2cylinder bikes lost the inherent advantage of tractable power. For the EBR "shutdown" , for me is no problem....MV Agusta , Bimota , MotoGuzzi, Aprilia, Ducati, CCM, Triumph ....all these manufactures had financial problems in the recent years.... Opening-closing-opening closing have happened many times.... FOr sure there must be a big USA manufacturer to have EBR under its wing....Just like the Piaggio group in Italy, Piaggio-Aprilia-MotoGuzzi are 1 company... Selling Piaggio scooters is keeping RSV4s alive ! It seems that the "great" USA doesn't give a shit for their smaller manufacturers...that is sad! | ||
| Snacktoast |
the engine being raced in WSBK are 1190 RS engines not 1190 RX/SX engines. They are very close to what the stock 1190 RS came with from the factor The WSBK engines are based on the RX engine, making 40-45 more rwhp than a stock RX, which makes more power than a stock RS. Don't think there's a whole lot in common there - that's a sizeable increase over stock. (Message edited by snacktoast on April 20, 2015) | ||
| Buelliedan |
snacktoast. Who told you they are racing RX engines in WSBK as that is not true. The engines raced in WSBK are 1190 RS engines not RX engines. Just like an 1190 RS they use custom pistons, custom crank, etc. I used to think they were running RX engines also but one of the Buell engineers informed me I was wrong. As for power I have both bikes here and a dyno and I can tell you that an RS makes the same rear wheel horsepower power as an 1190 RX does. If you look at some of the dashcam videos that were posted of the WSBK bikes you can see that it is an 1190 RS dash not an RX as well. Don't believe everything you read. (Message edited by buelliedan on April 20, 2015) | ||
| Henshao |
Two DNF's but as I understand it they were minor oversight/breakdowns rather than exploded engines. That IS progress considering EBR went way over the limit on replacement engines last year. It sucks but progress nevertheless. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Two DNF's but... " uhhhh they had THREE this past weekend, just saying (not mentioning the other races) |
