| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
^ If they're going to compete seriously in WSBK, that's what it'll take, or at least a streetable, EPA-legal V-twin that hits 200+ HP with whatever external mods (ECM, exhaust?) are allowed under EVO. The 2nd fastest EVO bike in Saturday's race was a Ducati (#59 Canepa), so I guess it's possible to build a competitive V-twin for EVO. | ||
| M2typhoon |
I'm willing to wait until Jerez to say much more about May's new motor. Laguna was not the place to show it off. The fact that there were no fork parts for the EBR's at Laguna say a lot about what they're running. Interesting. Everyone needs to start looking at this bike as an EVO and just throw the entire season out the window. The only reason why EBR is an actual SBK is so they can monkey with the motor. If they were in EVO now, that wouldn't happen. I think it was said in Erik's interview that the Kawi was making nearly 250hp  That is a butt load of horse power from a 1 liter motor. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The Kawi is a powerhouse, but it does not have as much pure horsepower as the Aprilia. The problems the early production new Gen ZX-10 (which led to a complete recall) was with the cam profile. They were droppings valves due to unstable valvetrain. They did make huge power. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"EBR had no intention of trying to be competitive with the top tier WSBK spec bikes this season" yeah, thats cool....but they arent competitive with ANY bike this season | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
ps - get Pegram on the bike and get rid of one of the two anchors holding up progress. | ||
| Court |
get Pegram on the bike and get rid of one of the two anchors holding up progress. Idiot. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Class act there Hybrid... | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Interesting Erik interview. Seems EBR are going to win in WSBK but it will take time given they want to win hands on with a developing motorcycle and not win simply with the luxury of having an open cheque book. Seems fair enough to me. Fighting their way to the top from the bottom, with a tool box and not a Swiss bank account. Rocket in England | ||
| Rsh |
The UK spec ZX-10R horsepower rating is quite a bit higher than the USA spec Kawasaki ZX10R Ninja 2014 Specifications...... Engine type Liquid-cooled, 4-stroke In-Line Four Displacement 998 cm³ Bore x stroke 76.0 x 55.0 mm Compression ratio 13.0:1 Valve/Induction system DOHC, 16 valves Maximum power 147.1kW {200.1PS}/13,000rpm Maximum power with RAM Air 154.4kW {209.9PS}/13,000rpm Maximum torque 112Nm{11.4kgf•m}/11,500rpm If you read Cycle Worlds long term ZX-10R test goals of setting up the chassis, suspension and regaining horsepower. Topping our to-do-list will be unbridling our 10R and reclaiming the 10-plus rear-wheel ponies that our U.S.-spec bike spots its European counterpart Results: We handed our bike over to Ken Hill, an instructor at the now-defunct Yamaha Champions Riding School as well as a private riding coach and part of fastersafer.com. Hill racked up thousands of trackday miles and applied a handful of mods that he felt offered solid performance gains while remaining within our self-imposed $1,500 spending cap. A Lee’s Cycle Service’s stock ECU flash ($450; leescycle.com) with a revised map based on that of Kawasaki’s race kit ECU unlocked the engine’s hidden potential. This alone substantially boosted the engine’s output above 11,500 rpm and raised the stock 13,600-rpm rev limit to 14,100. Hill also installed a Muzzys Catless Slip-on exhaust with street-core packing ($489.95; muzzys.com) offering an 8-pound weight savings. The ECU/pipe combination helped the bike produce 174.2 peak horsepower (10.5 more than stock), but of even greater significance are the gains (as much as 25 hp) achieved across much of the upper 2500 rpm of the rev range. That’s a performance boon for track use, even if the stock setup produced 3-5 foot-pounds more torque between 3500-10,000 rpm. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"You can see the light of day and take in the sights around you or you can stare at the sun and claim you are being blinded by it." G | ||
| Jscott |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmjcldcbqAI | ||
| Classax |
I would like to add that the factory EVO bikes which according to some are the same as showroom machines engine wise, still clearly make more power than the EBR's. If the EBRs are making 210ish bhp that means the EVOs are making more. That just isn't going to happen with showroom parts on the Kawi or Panigale. I have yet to see a stock 1199R throw down more than 200hp. I've seen a few race preppped 1199 spin the drum at 208 though. You simply can't get those numbers without race kit parts. Hill also installed a Muzzys Catless Slip-on exhaust with street-core packing ($489.95; muzzys.com) offering an 8-pound weight savings. The ECU/pipe combination helped the bike produce 174.2 peak horsepower (10.5 more than stock), As I said above the EVO's are clearly(as in significant enough to be easily apparent) still making MORE( as in GREATER than as opposed to similar or the same) power than the EBR's. You simply arent't going to make MORE thant 210bhp without resorting to race kit parts on the Kawi from what I've seen. I'm not close to anyone who races one to know for sure, and my experience is limited to what various racers are putting down at couple of our local tuning shops. The Panigale on the other hand I'm actively involved with prepping one for Formula 40 racing and the S out of the box with no internal work done can be tuned to get you, in the 205-208 realm. To go beyond that, or way beyond that as the EVO ZX10's and 1199's clearly are, on the showroom spec gear to me seems to be a blue ox story. Now start adding race pistons and cams and rings and radiators and the list goes on, you start to make big power. Thats information I have learned not from spec sheet racing on the internet, but from spending weeknights wrenching and helping my neighbor prep his 1199s race bike, and then getting to ride it, and his 1199 against my 1190RX back to back most weekends. He likes the EBR by the way, but he's a Ducati loyalist so his opinion is tainted.LOL The 1199 is like stradling a blow torch, if and when it will start! lol | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Yep, Im the idiot who sees more value in a guy that can earn a point in his first race over a racer who will retire so that he doesnt hold up traffic. Whatever. | ||
| Classax |
There are guys that are quicker than May and Yates no doubt. There are even Americans who are quicker than Yates and May not doubt. If the goal is to win races I think you can find plenty of guys who are fast, but if the goal is to develop the bike and communicate with engineers while making good relational in roads with Hero and the WSBK community you're going to be hard pressed to find anyone better. Yates and May in particular are very good at detecting and communicating what set up changes do the bike. More over they may not be the quickest guys out there but they are scary consistent which is what you need from a development rider. More so they are both good representatives on the off track side of the business as well. That said I think Danny Eslik would be AWESOME on the EBR. It suits his style to a T! The off track stuff hmm.. maybe not so much. | ||
| Jens |
As I wrote at Facebook: WSBK Laguna Seca. Thanks EBR for pulling hard to show up good at the home race. Plenty of work left... My man of the weekend, EBR wildcard starter Larry Pegram who finished 14 in race 2. Great result regarding that he needed to run tyres, chassis- and engine setup he was not used to. Congrats to the Team. Speedy recovery to Lowes and Barrier. Brings that me close to the idiots too? | ||
| M2typhoon |
I'm sure everyone would like to see Danny on an EBR again but putting him on a machine that is not developed is a total waste of time. Putting any rider like a Tommy Sikes or a Alex Lowes on an under developed machine would be idiotic and 3 times more expensive. Just because Larry finished 14th doesn't mean EBR needs to throw any of the top 5 riders on it. That won't prove a thing that hasn't already been proven. Yates and May are doing what needs to be done and that's to blow sh!+ up until it they make it faster. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I'm sure everyone would like to see Danny on an EBR again but putting him on a machine that is not developed is a total waste of time. " many said the 1125R wasnt fully developed and ready, he went and won a championship on one. what makes putting these other riders on an 'under developed bike' a bad idea? Can people like Stoner and Hayden not communicate to their team what the bike is doing? Are you going to tell me that there are only two American riders, currently racing, that can do that? HA! That excuse has been used so many times and yall just eat it up. "while making good relational in roads with Hero and the WSBK community you're going to be hard pressed to find anyone better" So no other, quicker riders could make these in roads with Hero? And the WSBK community? "May are doing what needs to be done and that's to blow sh!+ up until it they make it faster." Yep, blowing stuff up is the best option they have... Or just retiring from a race because you dont want to hold people up. Real nice. Jens is right - a rider that was on new tires and, potentially, added weight from an auxiliary fuel cell beat the two factory riders in their own series. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
PS - I know that Yates and May are good racers, Im not discounting their abilities. | ||
| Jens |
Having a underdeveloped motorcycle is one thing, lack of any talent for the moment another. Larry Pegram and his Team have done exact THAT what an Underdog Team must be able to do. USING THE MOMENT! There were some moments this year in WSBK, rain, many riders retired, etc. but they are not able or they are total out of any luck to use the situation to score. Larry and Team scored. So I question the package of bike, factoryteam and riders as a powerful striking unit. Each for itself might have its qualities but they are not gettin it to the point yet. Just to make clear, i talk about scoring some points and show some progress in laptimes in relation to the competitors. I stand to what I said before, we will see top 10 finishes not before EBR launch a complete new engine. (Message edited by Jens on July 15, 2014) | ||
| M2typhoon |
"what makes putting these other riders on an 'under developed bike' a bad idea?" So you want to put a rider on a bike that's brandy new just to find out the HP isn't there and they blow up on down shifts? A super sport rider could do that. Paying someone 3x's the cash to do the same job and a take a rider away from a several hundred thousand dollar machine and ask him to ride your 60k ride isn't going to happen. "Yep, blowing stuff up is the best option they have... Or just retiring from a race because you don't want to hold people up. Real nice." You know exactly what I meant by that and I recall Erik saying that if the limits of the bike are not pushed, then no forward progress will be made. EBR does not have the resources of these other teams. They can't replicate an entire race on an engine dyno nor can they download mapping or set-up info for tracks they haven't been at. "Jens is right - a rider that was on new tires and, potentially, added weight from an auxiliary fuel cell beat the two factory riders in their own series." Larry was riding his RS with an RX motor, pipe and plastics. It was not the same bike being run by the "factory" team. Not quite apples to apples and all the RX race bikes have aux fuel tanks. Larry's wasn't under the seat. | ||
| Jscott |
"Larry was riding his RS with an RX motor, pipe and plastics. It was not the same bike being run by the "factory" team. Not quite apples to apples and all the RX race bikes have aux fuel tanks. Larry's wasn't under the seat." How could Larry race an RS if it hasn't been homologated for WSBK? | ||
| Jens |
M2, and? You think the EBR factory bikes with trained riders and all the WSBK Suspension stuff, CNC brakecaliper and fancy electronics are inferior to an AMA bike what suddenly need to carry a right side lean angle limiter and the rider must adapt to all that necessary Set-up changes within 4 FP? | ||
| Jscott |
Jens is right, but I don't think its as much Larry vs Geoff vs Aaron, than the US EBR team vs the Italian WSBK team. | ||
| Jens |
I guess the Team converted the RS to an RX by changing the Parts needed what are different. The fuel tank extention was not needed at Laguna and is sure not the reason why the WSBK bikes not performing as we all wish. | ||
| Jens |
Team Pegram have done an impressive Job! | ||
| Hughlysses |
The differences in the race RS's and RX's are kind of blurred. If you look at photos of stripped bikes, you can see the WSBK RX's are actually running RS radiators. It would be interesting to see a list of all the actual differences in the race bikes. Back to Larry's impressive performance- I wonder if he ran AMA Superbike suspension vs. WSBK suspension? In the audio interview, Erik mentions the non-availability of the optimum cartridges for Geoff and Aaron's bikes at Laguna Seca. If Larry used the AMA forks, perhaps the lower spec AMA forks with correct valving worked better than higher spec WSBK forks with incorrect valving. That might explain at least part of his good run. | ||
| Classax |
Seems EBR are going to win in WSBK but it will take time given they want to win hands on with a developing motorcycle and not win simply with the luxury of having an open cheque book. Seems fair enough to me. Fighting their way to the top from the bottom, with a tool box and not a Swiss bank account. Rocket in England  | ||
| Gschuette |
Larry's crew is back on my good list. They had been black listed since the Daytona gaffe. Good for them. Should be a wake up call for the WSBK team that there is a serious monkey wrench or two in their operation. | ||
| Rodrob |
you can see the WSBK RX's are actually running RS radiators. I was wondering when somebody would notice this. I'm very curious as to the other differences. My guess is that the RX has cast heads instead of CNC machined and ported and lacks the CP pistons and Carillo rods of the RS. Could Jeff's new motor be now using RS pistons and rods? Cams? Crank? What about stronger, thicker cylinder castings? Inquiring minds want to know! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Short article on Pegram's accomplishment and a link to photos from the race, including several of the EBRs: http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/206798/1/ebr-scores -first-points-but-with-pegram.html I still haven't seen a picture that shows whether Pegram was running the auxiliary under-seat fuel tank, but the photos show he was clearly not running the superbike-spec forks nor the trick front brake caliper with different scoop that Geoff and Aaron have run for the last several races. |
