| Author | Message | ||
     Ljm |
My. 02 on the weekend. Forward progress all in all. Larry ran great, was running well in race 1 until the unfortunate downshift. Proved up in race 2. Geoff's bike better than it showed, three starts on an old clutch too much. Finished anyway. Cory did a great job, and is a great representative of the company. Met people all weekend. Had lunch in the EBR tent today, talked to a bunch of potential customers about the rs and RX. Nice folks. It was a great weekend and Ebr is moving forward. | ||
| Court |
How many of those potential customers do you think will NOT buy based on WSBK ? Did any of them even know the results of the past races? I find it interesting to ask Sportbike riders "what's your favorite WSBK venue?" So far no one can name one. Very cool ..... All things considered .... This weekend was. | ||
| Gregtonn |
http://speedcitypodcast.com/speedcast-84-eirk-buel l/ Listen carefully starting about 5:35. How many times has it been avowed in this thread that the reduced performance could have nothing to do with the WSBK electronics? G | ||
| Ebmachine |
After talking with some of the folks at Laguna Seca, few followed the manufactures, but were delighted with watching the competition and loved the idea that the Americans wanted to compete. The Japanese and Italian supporters did not even seem to notice EBR was competing. The locals loved EBR and did not seem to be too concerned with their standings, but seemed happy that they were there competing. On this blog, there are very knowledgeable Superbike followers, that are frustrated with EBR's performance. Although the number of people I talked to at Laguna Seca were not close to a scientific sample, I got the general idea that we might be coming down on EBR harder than the fans. Let's give Erik a chance. Times are hard, but a lot of lessons learned. Give American ingenuity a chance. I will. I have experienced Buell engineering and have enjoyed the ride. (Message edited by EBmachine on July 13, 2014) | ||
| Ljm |
Court, My sense is that the people who visited the transporter either went there with purpose of seeing the new bikes, especially the SX or were just walking the paddock and dropped in. The crowd was at times, huge. There were obviously there for the WSBK, but the people who I talked to didn't seem deterred but I didn't specifically ask. Most were just interested in my experience in riding them, what I had compared them to. People were amazed that Priscilla has an RX, and were interested in her impressions that it is both easy to ride and obviously like being fired out of a cannon. The guys in the tent referred people to us when we were there to answer first-hand questions. Had an interesting series of conversations on merchandising, branding, etc. based our admittedly limited experience with similar issues outside motorsports. Some interesting ideas that I will forward on to Mark when we finally get back home. Lastly, and then I will quite derailing the thread, the announcers for WSBK were very complimentary of Erik and his innovations. He was very much revered there among not just the Buell/EBR crowd, but among all the spectators. | ||
| Classax |
It was nice to hear Erik articulate the vision and reality of where they are. 60k machine vs 250k machines. They've done well to get the machine this far, but I hope they are able to continue to improve by leaps and bounds in the coming season. I would like to add that the factory EVO bikes which according to some are the same as showroom machines engine wise, still clearly make more power than the EBR's. If the EBRs are making 210ish bhp that means the EVOs are making more. That just isn't going to happen with showroom parts on the Kawi or Panigale. I have yet to see a stock 1199R throw down more than 200hp. I've seen a few race preppped 1199 spin the drum at 208 though. You simply can't get those numbers without race kit parts. All in all a decent showing but I feel the best is yet to come. | ||
| Ebmachine |
Well said Classax. | ||
| Jima4media |
Like Erik said, it all comes down to horsepower. The Aprilias and Kawasakis were going through the speed traps on the front strait at 155-160mph. The Buells 148-150. That difference alone makes a big difference in the lap times. The team manager doesn't figure into the equation at all. Jim | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
first WSBK race for Pegram and he does better than the other two have done all season. Maybe its the archer and not the arrow... | ||
| M2typhoon |
Larry's bike was not the same bike that Aaron and Geoff were running. It didn't have the WSBK forks which leads me to believe it was his RS with the RX legal motor. Larry even said he had to dump the magnesium wheels for the RX's aluminum. I believe it was the RS in RX clothing and Larry already had a pretty good handle on the bike as it was. The bike also had no aux. tank under the seat. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Matthew- you may be onto something. Erik mentions in the interview linked above that Ohlins didn't have the WSBK fork cartridges they needed for the EBRs for this track. Maybe Larry's AMA-spec forks worked better. | ||
| Trojan |
If the EBRs are making 210ish bhp that means the EVOs are making more. That just isn't going to happen with showroom parts on the Kawi or Panigale. It means nothing of the sort. All it means is that the EVO bikes are much more sorted as race bikes than the EBR so far. I am not surprised if Kawasaki and BMW have over 200bhp on the EVO bike as the stock bikes aren't far off that figure to start with. The rules for EVO are expicily clear on what can and more importantly cannot be done to the engines, and we have been through all that before. if you think that the EVO bikes have more than stock parts then you are basically saying that they are all cheating? if the EVO bikes can brake later and stay reliable to the end of the race, then they will beat the EBR bikes every week unless EBVR can improve on both counts. This weekend was the race where all of EBR's cards should have been aces. Home track, good track knowledge, extra bike, new engines all round etc etc etc. Pegram scored a point simply because race two was (as Tom Sykes said) carnage. However he still finished 23 seconds behind the winner after just 7 laps! That is still more than 3 seconds a lap slower so nothing to cheer about really, especially as it also discounts the two Bimotas from the results. Leon Camier finished 4 places ahead on a bike he had never ridden and a track he had never been to before Friday. 2 out of 3 EBR's broke down in race one and only 2 started race 2  result: Slight improvement but not as good as expected. My overriding impression of the race watching on TV was.....where are all the spectators? The official figures were 49 thousand over 3 days but the grandstands looked more than half empty | ||
| Hughlysses |
My overriding impression of the race watching on TV was.....where are all the spectators? The official figures were 49 thousand over 3 days but the grandstands looked more than half empty This article states attendance was up 20% from last year: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/mazda-raceway- laguna-seca-world-superbike-event-attendance-up-20 -spoiler-alert/ | ||
| Classax |
Still a lot of variables. The Worm typically ran just ahead of May in the AMA in years past. The AMA bike wouldn't have to deal with the geometry and suspension set up issues caused by the extra fuel and tank. I personally think there is probably a difference in the competence in dealing with the uniqueness of the bike between the state side and European teams. Ie Larry blew an engine yet started both races, Yates' engine issue didn't APPEAR to be as bad yet he did not make race two. Erik also said they continue to struggle with the electronics which is a whole different discipline in its self. | ||
| Classax |
It means nothing of the sort. All it means is that the EVO bikes are much more sorted as race bikes than the EBR so far. I am not surprised if Kawasaki and BMW have over 200bhp on the EVO bike as the stock bikes aren't far off that figure to start with. The rules for EVO are expicily clear on what can and more importantly cannot be done to the engines, and we have been through all that before. if you think that the EVO bikes have more than stock parts then you are basically saying that they are all cheating? We disagree on the above on how factory superstock kits can be "stock" and that's fine. I DON'T want rehash it. I would just point out the dynos in test after test do not support the idea that you can get 200 let alone over 200hp out of a stock zx10r or panigale without putting in some major work. A tune and exhaust won't get you there. In a nutshell the EVO class, engine wise is just that. The BMWs are very strong out the box no questions there. | ||
| Trojan |
Whether we disagree or not, the rules are very very clear. NO engine modifications are allowed in EVO class machines. That does not mean that you cannot build a stock engine out of carefully selected and balanced stock parts of course. And of course they still get to run the full superbike suspension and brakes packages. Once you add in the ECU/electronics, exhaust etc I don't see a problem with 200bhp froma ZX10. The Panigale may be a bit less but it is still a very competitive package anyway. If you take the top performaning Superbikes and fit an EVO engine I'd bet that they would all be running at class leading times (except maybe the Aprilia-which does not seem to do so well with a stock engine) simply because they are fully sorted packages (suspension,brakes AND engine), as David Salom proves almost every week on his EVO Kawasaki. It isn't all about who has the most horsepower but who has the best complete race setup. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"I would just point out the dynos in test after test do not support the idea that you can get 200 let alone over 200hp out of a stock zx10r or panigale without putting in some major work" Hmm.. so EBR has 185 at the crank stock. They are now making 210 or so at the crank with stock internals, a race pipe and some electrics. I don't see how it's impossible for an EVO bike to have at least 10 more horse power than that of the EBR's. 200+ crank Hp is not hard to find in any of these motors with currently available over the counter parts so I would assume that a professional race team with all of the fuel mapping and electronic control of the bike at their disposal could easily make those numbers in their sleep. | ||
| Buellmojo |
I forget the year, but a production year for the ZX10R showed a 200+ HP pull before production release (completely stock)... Kawasaki was told to tune it down for release here in the United States. I am pretty sure it was the same year that they had the connecting rod failure issue. I also ride with a guy, that owns a 2010 ZX10R, he has seen 178 HP to the rear wheel with a pipe and a Bazazz FMS. (Message edited by buellmojo on July 14, 2014) | ||
| Jscott |
Couple questions: 1. If Larry didn't have to run the auxiliary fuel tank, why did Geoff and Aaron? 2. What kind of issues is the Italian team encountering that they can't get a bike on the grid after a failure. Far too many DNS! | ||
| M2typhoon |
"1. If Larry didn't have to run the auxiliary fuel tank, why did Geoff and Aaron?" Think about the bikes for a minute. Geoff and Aaron have been racing that set-up for the past however many races. The bikes are "set-up" for it. Larry has been riding the RS here in the AMA and I suspect that's what he was riding due to the lack of the WSBK forks(standard RS forks were on the bike). Why would you change the weight distribution of the bike by adding the tank if the bike can complete the race on available fuel in the tank? This is why Larry was "fast". His set-up on his bike and he's used to it. The only things RX about that bike was the engine, wheels and fairing decals. Larry didn't even have the improved front caliper or vent system that Aaron and Geoff have. The only reason the team uses the tank is to finish the race... not because DORNA says they have to. | ||
| Trojan |
1. If Larry didn't have to run the auxiliary fuel tank, why did Geoff and Aaron? It is probably because Laguna just happens to be the shortest track on the WSB calendar, so they could all probably have managed without the auxiliary tank this week. It would just be harder to remove and then refit these than to continue with them regardless of need. I don't see the extra tank as a cause or potential cause of any problems to be honest. Pretty much every superbike team moves the location of the fuel tank to a place under the seat (roughly where EBR have their auxiliary tank) without any adverse handling issues. In fact it puts the weight of the fuel in a much better space for 'mass centralisation'. 2. What kind of issues is the Italian team encountering that they can't get a bike on the grid after a failure. Far too many DNS! Yates suffered what looked like an engine problem in practice too, so if they changed the engine following that incident maybe they just ran out of motors to put in his bike? It would be unusual for a team to carry more than two spare engines for each bike for one weekend. if they are over their allocation maybe they didn't think it was worth starting from pit lane in front of their home fans? | ||
| Hughlysses |
They are now making 210 or so at the crank with stock internals, a race pipe and some electrics. We don't really know that Geoff's engine used stock internals, do we? | ||
| Classax |
The bike May is on has new engine parts and is not the original stock internals. Its the improved test version they were waiting on for so long. The 2011 zx10r which is basically the same bike now for the last three years could be tuned to 202hp on "stock" components before spitting its rods in multiple directions. Funny how very few tuners are able to reproduce those numbers without any internal work. I'm not talking a max tune run once tear down and refresh top fuel style, which often is the case with some of these really high numbers. We agree that the completeness of the package has a great deal to do with overall performance. As far as the fuel tank goes, WSBk races are normally much longer, so its needed. It does make you wonder why on the large number of DNS... doesn't it. | ||
| M2typhoon |
If Geoff's internals were that much different, then why was Larry as fast as Geoff if not faster especially if Larry was basically riding his AMA RS with RX stuff in it and on it. | ||
| Trojan |
If Geoff's internals were that much different, then why was Larry as fast as Geoff if not faster especially if Larry was basically riding his AMA RS with RX stuff in it and on it. Because it isn't all down to engine power. laguna is a short twisty track so power really isn't the major factor anyway. If Larry took his bike 'as is' to a'top end' track like Silverstone, Monza or Hockenheim then the difference would probably be greater between the WSb spec and AMA spec bikes. Larry had different suspension and may just have had his dialled in better, or he may just be a better rider at Laguna? We'll never know unless the same rider tries both bikes on the same track. What is obvious though, is that even with the 'upgraded' engine May is still getting left behind the other WSB spec superbikes | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
yall keep talking about larry not having/needing aux fuel, but LJM posted this "Larry's tank is on the left side behind the seat on the outside, at least looks like fuel. " He was there. So which is it? Lets face it, has May ever been a top shelf racer? Pegram is a great racer, maybe he shouldve gotten the WSBK ride instead of may or yates | ||
| Ljm |
On the crowd, most people are not in the stands. I am not sure how it compares to other tracks, but probably a thousand or more just where I was sitting on corkscrew hill. We sat one race there and the other in the stands. On the tank, Larry did have what looked to me like an auxilary tank on the left side behind his leg. I could never get a close look at it, initially looked like a battery but he had a shorai under the front fairing, so maybe a fuel cell? It was in a bolt-on welded case attached to the rear frame under the seat. On Aaron, Matt: bingo. As a comparison, and I am not looking at those forums, Ducati blew one engine right in front of the stands, crashed out of race 2, neither of the bikes finished (as I recall) and Jake Holden broke the bike in the AMA. Crap happens when you are developing a bike. I was surrounded by Ducati red in the stands and watching them. No we're not worthy out of them. Supportive bunch. Interesting short talk with Erik in the paddock. His comment, "it takes years to develope a bike to run at this level. We are just starting." Additionally, EBR doesn't have the R & D budget that the others do. This is a big chunk of their R & D, and at 212 horsepower, it is working. Electronics is an issue. Not sorted yet it appears. One of the issues related to position is draft. On one lap, Aaron drafted at 154, comparable to many of the other bikes. Other than the front runners who made a few 160 laps, but not that many, virtually no one was running consistently above 156, drafting or not. So, they are down some, better than before, but still lacking a little top end. | ||
| Jscott |
Cool picture of Danny Eslick and Erik Buell sitting together on their plane ride following Laguna on Danny's FB page. Here's hoping Erik can sway him to WSBK for the '15 season. (Message edited by Jscott on July 14, 2014) | ||
| Hughlysses |
What is obvious though, is that even with the 'upgraded' engine May is still getting left behind the other WSB spec superbikes After listening to the interview with Erik, it's clear that EBR had no intention of trying to be competitive with the top tier WSBK spec bikes this season. May's engine with the right suspension setup should made him at least competitive with the EVO bikes. If the changes in that engine can be incorporated into the production bikes for next year, EBR will be in vastly better shape for WSBK next season. One point Erik made in the interview that I thought was very interesting: Hero has very deep pockets, but they didn't get very deep pockets by throwing money away and they haven't given the WSBK team anything like an unlimited budget. Unless you've got money to burn, it would have made no sense to spend millions this season developing a full WSBK spec V-twin which would be obsolete next season under Evo rules. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"May's engine with the right suspension setup should made him at least competitive with the EVO bikes. If the changes in that engine can be incorporated into the production bikes for next year, EBR will be in vastly better shape for WSBK next season." So.. are you saying that the street going RX will have 200hp or more for next year and be the baddest twin ever produced and still be EPA legal? |
