| Author | Message | ||
     Buellmojo |
That statement from Geoff May squashed quite a few excuses. "Really good racing" means everything, regardless of who wins...at least to a fan of the sport! | ||
| Trojan |
3 second a lap faster on conventional brakes in testing? a homologation road bike in the pipeline perhaps? I was surprised by the comment from the UK commentator. Mostly because they actually mentioned the EBR team at all to be honest! His comment that they had tested 3 seconds faster using 'conventional brakes' will upset a few purists I think, but it is the first 'inside' comment that we have had that confirm some suspicions here. he did say that they cannot use twin discs becasue of homologation issues, although I thought that brake choice was free from the approved list of suppliers (unless homologation requires manufacturers to use the same TYPE of brake as fitted to the stock bike). Who mentioned 'really good racing'. The team press release is even more usuelss than normal. Apart from not knowing their true finishing position in race one (because Bimota don't score) it is just full of hot air again  I hope some direct control from the factory can improve matters at Laguna, coz it can't get much more embarressing than it is now. To say the team is the laughing stock of pit lane would not be too strong. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I was surprised by the comment from the UK commentator. Mostly because they actually mentioned the EBR team at all to be honest! His comment that they had tested 3 seconds faster using 'conventional brakes' will upset a few purists I think, but it is the first 'inside' comment that we have had that confirm some suspicions here. I take it that this comment was from one of the race commentators on the television coverage? | ||
| M2typhoon |
I honestly don't care what they do with the brakes. If it's 3-4 seconds then.. what the hell, use them. As a crew chief, we are always trying something new, whether it's made by us or some one else. I know there's rules surrounding this brake rumor but, it's stupid simple. If it's faster, then use it, stop letting your pride get in the way. The only way that system will work well is to use two, 4 pot calipers 180 degrees from each other on the same rotor. This will provide the same braking force as the twin disk set-up and allow to rotor and pads to run cooler. It will still give the rotating weight advantage but add some overall weight possibly. From what I've heard, the issue is the pad material lasting the race which comes down to extreme heat in the pads which dictates softer pad material. Racing is about going fast and winning and to do what ever it takes to do it. I have not seen that from the HERO team once this season and it's just not racing. It's parading your banner around and blowing money.. I can only hope that what they are doing by eating soooooo much crow this year makes them contenders in the EVO rules next year and I'm still waiting for the rotary valve engine to show up some where in the EBR skunk works.... | ||
| Trojan |
The comment was made by the UK Europsort commentator and is about the only 20 seconds of coverage I have heard this year regarding EBR. His commentw as that the bikes had tested with 'normal' brakes and were 3-4 seconds faster. He didn't mention where or when but I assume it was a recent test. His view was that the team are forced to continue with the current brake setup until next year as they would need to homologate a new model if they change the brakes. I've checked through the rules and I can't find anything that actually says that, so I think the following rule would apply: 1.5.1 Production Update If the following parts are changed, a notification must be submitted to FIM for making a production update including the relevant drawings and samples: Cylinder(s) Cylinder Crankshaft Connecting rods Camshafts 188 ABS installation and its components with a systems diagram showing both Hydraulic and Electronic Circuits. Traction control system and its components with a systems diagram showing the Electronic Circuits. Electronic suspension system and components with a systems diagram showing both Hydraulic and Electronic Circuits. In case of product updates, updated parts can be used for all motorcycles of the homologation in question. 1.5.2 Homologation of Parts and Production Update Product updates on parts other than those stated in Article 1.5.1, such as the fairing or wheels require a homologation update. The manufacturer must send a notice to the FIM CCR/CTI Secretariat requesting for a homologation update not later than 30 days before the first race in which the model containing new parts will compete basically that would mean that EBR could notify the FIM of a change of brake and use it 30 days later during the same season. I am still not entirely sure that the brakes even need to be notified and that they couldn't just change to another kit from the approved race list. I think it would be the EBR factory rather than the FIM that would object to a brake change though, as EBR have hung their shirts on ZTL brakes and would lose face changing the WSB system regardless of race results (as if they are not losing face already!). | ||
| Jaimec |
Then I guess I'm not a fan of WSBK... I'm an EBR fan, a BMW fan, and a Yamaha fan. I am a fan of Geoff May and Aaron Yates at this time because they ride EBR. If they switched teams, I'd lose interest. I was also a fan of Max Biaggi, no matter what bike he was on because he was SUCH a colorful character. Same reason I didn't bother watching the women's final at Wimbledon. Once Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova made their exit, I lost interest. I wasn't too happy with the outcome of the men's final, but I watched because Roger Federer made it and put up one helluva fight. I DON'T think my attitude is all that unusual either. I watch MotoGP not to watch Marquez and Honda stomp all over the competition, but because Yamaha is STILL competitive and has an outside chance of winning a race IF the cards fall correctly. I am also a huge fan of BOTH Valentino Rossi and Jorge Lorenzo (and I will sorely miss Colin Edwards next year). I WISH Nicky were on a more competitive motorcycle too (even though he has the poor judgment to be a Honda man). | ||
| Rcf2 |
X2 Jaimec | ||
| Crusty |
X3 | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, if the 3-4 second/lap deficit due to the front brakes is true, apparently the EBR 1190's engine performance is NOT an issue. Knock 3 seconds off Geoff's qualifying time at Portimao and he'd have been somewhere around 5th. Knock 4 seconds off Geoff's time and he'd have qualified 2nd! I'm not saying I really believe this; it's just how the numbers work out. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Hugh, This would also give more insight as to why they are blowing up motors on decel. Maybe not enough brake... | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
""Really good racing" doesn't mean anything if you don't give a **** who wins. At least, not to me." for real fans of motorsports, it does mean something great job on being, simply, a fanboy | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Well, if the 3-4 second/lap deficit due to the front brakes is true, apparently the EBR 1190's engine performance is NOT an issue. Knock 3 seconds off Geoff's qualifying time at Portimao and he'd have been somewhere around 5th. Knock 4 seconds off Geoff's time and he'd have qualified 2nd! I'm not saying I really believe this; it's just how the numbers work out." I dont think that's how it'd be either If they are 30mph down on the rest of the field, I dont see better brakes really helping out that much | ||
| Stevel |
If you guys believe that 3-4 second comment, I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge! Brakes don't affect top speed and they would be qualifying much better than they are, as pads won't go away in 5 laps, even on ZTLs. | ||
| Hughlysses |
If they are 30mph down on the rest of the field, I dont see better brakes really helping out that much Lack of adequate brakes should have no effect on peak speeds unless they're having to back off the throttle long before the hit the end of a straightaway so that they've got adequate time to brake. M2typhoon makes a good point about brake problems possibly causing the engine failures. I totally accept that the front brake could be the root of EBR's problems. I just find it hard to believe that WSBK is that much harder on the brakes on every track compared to AMA Superbike. Next weekend should show if it's true pretty clearly. | ||
| Classax |
3(Three) seconds a LAP is significant! I don't see that happening just by having a different brake set up. If the problem as stated was they run out of pad material toward the end, we would see some hot laps and times followed by times falling off near the end in the free practices at the least, and an overall slower pace in the races. What we have is they are slower EVERYWHERE, but particularly down the straights and appear to be making up time in the corners and on the brakes. May said going to a traditional brake set up like Mat and Rocket have always rightly said would at least kill one variable. However if the goal is to develop ZTL into WSBK race worthy gear(which they have indicated it is), they'll continue to run it and play with it until they get it right. Nothing wrong with that, just don't expect to win right at first. I think May and Yates are doing a great job to learn the tracks and ride hard but neither one has top 5 type pace in WSKB even if you put them on the Aprilias. They were second and third tier guys in the AMA so I'd like more information on the "test" they got that 3 seconds a lap anecdote from. May and Yates both have said they were specifically down on power, against the "real superbikes" and on track even against the EVO's. It would appear the factory engines appear to work a bit better than the ones the team had previously. We must get different commentation here in the States while watching it on BEin. They mention EBR and their development struggles almost every race. Commentators even threw in a shot of May on pit lane and explained the engine situation and that the high use was not necessarily due to the engines breaking but that anytime EBR spec'd a change it required them to use an engine as well. Said it would go on as they " weren't trying to win the WSBK Championship but were developing the bikes for next year." That's about the fourth time I've heard them make similar comments about EBR. Maybe our regional media outlets are coloring some of what we hear and how we perceive it.  | ||
| Trojan |
Knock 3 seconds off Geoff's qualifying time at Portimao and he'd have been somewhere around 5th. Knock 4 seconds off Geoff's time and he'd have qualified 2nd! Actually if you were to knock 3 seconds off Geoffs practice time (he never made Superpole remember- when everyone went quicker) he would have been 11th at best. The speed traps for monitoring top speeds are normally at the end of the longest straight just before the 'normal' braking point. if the EBR is having brake problems then they are probably braking a long time ahead of the other bikes and so inside the 'speed trap zone', which would go a long way to explaining the 30kph deficit in top speeds. Somebody on here who was actually at Aragon already said he saw them braking much earlier than everyone else, so this could be case. I just find it hard to believe that WSBK is that much harder on the brakes on every track compared to AMA Superbike. Everything is harder in WSb than AMA Superbike. Tracks are longer, races are longer, speeds are higher and braking is harder and later, so any weak point will be ruthlessly exposed. As I said previously, EBR were probably flattered by lack of competition in AMA racing and have now found the real level for their current platform. Laguna is a very short track by world championship standards, but the WSB race will be longer than AMA races I think? Sticking with the existing brake system for WSb will be a political decision rather than a racing one I think  | ||
| M2typhoon |
"I totally accept that the front brake could be the root of EBR's problems. I just find it hard to believe that WSBK is that much harder on the brakes on every track compared to AMA Superbike. Next weekend should show if it's true pretty clearly." I would have to say that since all of these bikes have conventional brakes and these brakes have been engineered within an inch of their lives, that the ZTL is an infant in braking technology. The fact that the ZTL caliper that they use now is a billet piece to replace the cast caliper.. well duh, that would be one of the first things on my build list for a race bike. Think about it.. who in their right minds would field a stock bike in WSBK because that's what they showed up with. But.. if the motor is still mass producible in race trim and meet all of the emission standards here in the U.S. after it gets sorted, wouldn't that be something... I can almost invision where EBR could be taking this. A 200+ HP twin for the street... | ||
| Classax |
Everything is harder in WSb than AMA Superbike. Tracks are longer, races are longer, speeds are higher and braking is harder and later, so any weak point will be ruthlessly exposed. As I said previously, EBR were probably flattered by lack of competition in AMA racing and have now found the real level for their current platform. The tracks in WSBK are between 2.2 and 3.6 miles long, but they are nearly all quite flowing with LONG straights. In the AMA back when it ran the full schedule you had Miller and Road America big 4.4 and 4.7 mile tracks with HUGE straights. USA tracks are usually in the 2.5 mile range but generally very tight. If you're going to have brake issues, you're more likely to have them here, than on the more flowing tracks of WSBK. EBR didn't KILL the competition in the AMA, but I think they desire to develop their bikes on track at the highest level and WSBK is it. Its going to hurt until it doesn't. I would have to say that since all of these bikes have conventional brakes and these brakes have been engineered within an inch of their lives, that the ZTL is an infant in braking technology. A technology worth developing. It does meet the design objectives and it does work well on the street. The approach is different and yet they're trying to fix it with conventional pads and its not progressing as well as anyone would like. Reminds me of Farraday's light polarization experiments. He tried every chemical he had in his lab before in exasperation trying an old half melted peice of telescope glass he used as a paper weight before finding success. Its always the very last thing you try or last place you look is it. The fact that the ZTL caliper that they use now is a billet piece to replace the cast caliper Hmmm depending on the parent metal and how the billet is smeltted, it could actually be weaker becuase the machining can process introduce unwanted heat. That said the ZTL2 calipers have a ton of side flex when warm/hot that could be addressed. Think about it.. who in their right minds would field a stock bike in WSBK because that's what they showed up with. But.. if the motor is still mass producible in race trim and meet all of the emission standards here in the U.S. after it gets sorted, wouldn't that be something... I can almost invision where EBR could be taking this.A 200+ HP twin for the street That sounds to me like exactly their plan. Which is why I'm not nearly as disappointed about them not running anywhere near the front because of equipment, I expected that, but I am extremely disappointed about how awfully team SEEMS to have performed with the equipment. Sticking with the existing brake system for WSb will be a political decision rather than a racing one I think LOL! Mat I don't think they will ever fully get away from it, but then again the RX does have a side mounded quarter wave exhaust hanging off the side and we all know how Erik feels about where an exhaust belongs. So maybe there is something in the works. (Message edited by classax on July 07, 2014) | ||
| Hughlysses |
It will be interesting to see where they go with ZTL, assuming they do continue with it. As suggested much earlier in this thread, they could always add a second rotor and caliper and still maintain the basis of ZTL (no torque load through the wheel spokes), although this would cost them a significant portion of their weight advantage. One thing worth considering- you don't have to develop brakes on the race track, they can be developed in the shop just like engines are on a dynamometer. I'd imagine EBR has a much better model of the braking performance that's required for WSBK than they had 6 months ago, so they can accurately simulate what's required of the brakes in the shop. If it's possible to develop a single rotor ZTL setup to stand up to WSBK conditions, and EBR is determined to do it, they will. | ||
| M2typhoon |
I remember what Court said a while ago about this whole plan for domination thing. will we see a WSBK spec street bike with 200HP? Given the RX's emissions performance, its very possible. It's almost like Erik said to his engine guys. "here, take this engine and make it laugh at the EPA". 9% of allowed pollutants.. hmm. That's a lot of room for smoke. I want to know who else in WSBK in recent history has showed up with a stock bike and entered? I learned a long time ago in racing, you got to be a pile before you can be king of the heap. This goes for all forms of racing. I can almost say that the current RX will not be in WSBK competition next year, if it is, this is not a true racing effort of any kind because the current iteration of the RX was never meant for WSBK. If it was, it wouldn't need that stupid tank. | ||
| Classax |
I can almost say that the current RX will not be in WSBK competition next year, if it is, this is not a true racing effort of any kind because the current iteration of the RX was never meant for WSBK. If it was, it wouldn't need that stupid tank. All the bikes in WSBK have extended tanks vs stock. If they didn't, the RSV4's wouldn't make it down pit lane. On their forum they joke that they can pass anything but a gas station. The RX in its current form is an excellent street and trackday bike. A world class racer would require a lot more compromises in functionality and cost. I think the goal here was to prove or disprove how far they could get with the production machine sans the hand picked and race kit and they got pretty far but not close to far enough. The next step will be to evolve it into a machine that walks the fine line between all out racer and affordable street steed. Tough to do, but it can be done. | ||
| Neutrum |
"I think the goal here was to prove or disprove how far they could get with the production machine sans the hand picked and race kit and they got pretty far but not close to far enough. " i always thought that the goal was to compete on the highest levels possible. with all due respect to your knowlegde, but this is trash-talk...same as the elves-blabla...you're defending a very stubborn idea of racing, no matter what the cost will be. i stay with what i've said before: they overestimated themselves and the 1190rx and underestimated wsbk. and they didn't read the rulesbook. this is all an epic fail. the pr and perception of the 1190 and ebr is just catastrophic...people in racing forums are laughing very loud. that was very clear after the aragon-session. and i predict a big failure in laguna seca... and i hope, they will end this adventure soon and won't participate with this bike in next years competition in wsbk. should be clear by now that they haven't got a chance to compete. i'm very disappointed by ebr... (Message edited by Neutrum on July 08, 2014) | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I want to know who else in WSBK in recent history has showed up with a stock bike and entered? " Few are that dumb. Sorry, but the fact remains that a street bike isnt as quick around a track as a race bike. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Are we not forgetting the EBR is a race bike first and a street bike second, as widely boasted by EBR in their marketing exploits? EBR boldly stated it being the first such production bike in the world to be so. This bold marketing in advance of their entry into WSBK. From CYCLE WORLD.... Besides competing in AMA Superbike competition, EBR is growing its streetbike product line. The flagship 1190RS weighs a claimed 389 lbs., and with its 1190cc V-twin engine producing a reported 175 hp, the power-to-weight ratio is near F1 territory. Production was limited to 100 units. Revealed in Fall 2013, the new 1190RX directly stems from the 1190RS AMA Superbike and is represented as a purebred machine that will tame the wildest roads and rouse the most demanding riders. So which is it? Race bike to road bike or road bike to race bike? Rocket in England | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
As this season roll's on it is quite obvious this bike and team in this current configuration is simply not up to the task of being competitive,and next week at Laguna Seca the embarrassment will continue,I feel very badly however for Geoff May and Aron Yates and am sure they too are embarrassed . Believe me I hope I am wrong I would love to see both bikes able to start and have a respectable placing. | ||
| Trojan |
I think the goal here was to prove or disprove how far they could get with the production machine sans the hand picked and race kit and they got pretty far but not close to far enough. Wrong on a number of levels I think. They have proved that the EBr race bike in its current form is an unreliable machine gthat is incapable of finishing races DESPITE being stock (so they say) and nowhere near running at the pace required for WSb level competition. They have never got close enough even to the EVO (Superstock spec) bikes let alone the full fat superbikes. If the EVO bikes weren't there then the EBRS woudl be running around 5 seconds adrift of the pack every race so far, which is just appalling. The result of all this is that the EBR team arrive at their home round as the whipping boys of WSb and the butt of criticism and jokes from fans and forums (and potential customers) worldwide. I wonder what the reaction will be from the US viewers if they continue their current poor form and both retire or fail to start at Laguna? Will Erik be there to witness the debacle? I had pretty high hopes when they announced they were going to WSb and assumed that they had developed a competetive package. That was disproved from day one of competetion and the sad thing is that they don't seem to have made any progress since Pull the plug please and come back next year with a better team/bike. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"So which is it? Race bike to road bike or road bike to race bike?" Why are we even speaking of the RS? The RS is a different animal all together and it is a street legal race bike. The RX is not. Also..last time I checked, they're using the RX in WSBK, not the RS. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I wonder what the reaction will be from the US viewers if they continue their current poor form and both retire or fail to start at Laguna? Will Erik be there to witness the debacle? Conversely, what if Laguna Seca proves to be the first race that EBR shows up for with a properly modified, WSBK-spec 1190RX? According to what Jens has posted, the bikes have been running bone-stock engines at every race prior to last weekend. Geoff says he had a new "improved engine" for last weekend and this weekend. We know the DNF's last weekend were deliberate to conserve engines for this weekend. Geoff and Aaron know this track- how many seconds/lap is that worth? Of course, they may fall flat on their faces (again), but if they're gonna show anything this season, next weekend is it. If Geoff pulls off 2 decent (or maybe amazingly good) finishes, will anyone care about the previous finishes (or DNF's)? | ||
| Trojan |
According to what Jens has posted, the bikes have been running bone-stock engines at every race prior to last weekend. Geoff says he had a new "improved engine" for last weekend and this weekend. I don't believe that the engines were ever 'bone stock' otherwise why did they sack their Italian engine builder? I'm pretty sure there must have been some 'improvements' or tuning over stock other wise I am even more incredulous that they thought they could race in WSB! Secondly, the 'new' engine that Geoff had at the last round was quicker but still not fast enough to be running above the EVO bikes and at the same pace as the top 10. It may be enough to get into Superpole one but that would be about it on current form. Maybe Laguna will be better as it is familiar to both riders (although not the team running the bikes)but I don't think even a good result at Laguna would expunge the memory of the seaosn so far. What to people here think would represent a good result at Laguna anyway? Superpole? top ten finish? Just to get two bikes to the end of both races? | ||
| M2typhoon |
When MJM sent Roger to do WSBK as a wild card last year, Roger finished 10th and 8th and he wasn't much faster than the EBR's. I'm going to assume they didn't do much to make that happen except for tires and some tunning. Track knowledge means alot but we won't know jack until they hit the track this weekend. Roger 2013 WSBK race best 1:24.245 Aaron 2013 AMA SBK race best 1:26.381 Geoff 2013 AMA qualifying best 1:25.400 |
