| Author | Message | ||
     Ezblast |
Tpoppa - sounding kind of bitter there for a guy who supposedly supports all brands and main quote in life is " ...as long as your riding!" - what's up with that? I can name a lot of brands - including Japanese that rarely show, yet still they race - to improve and grow - if it's just about winning - why bother - most of those showing up must know they are not getting the first five spots lest a whole bunch of bikes fall out, yet still they race, and we enjoy their racing. Racing can only improve the brand, why HD has fallen so far in my eyes. EZ | ||
| Hughlysses |
I followed the live timing for free practice #3 for the final ~12 minutes. Geoff stayed in the pits the entire time. Aaron came in several times but remains at the back of the field with Geoff immediately in front of him. I hope they're fast enough to qualify. | ||
| Classax |
I find it hard to believe they're having issues with the brakes when their speeds are so low and there is typically more time between hard braking zones and most of the tracks are faster flowing type as opposed to the tighter stuff in the US. Initial bite may be an issue but not fade. They go through a lot of rotors though. The wheelie situation only compounds the electronics issues. The geometry and suspension are definitely not what the design intended. I've always disliked the fact that WSB were allowed to carry more fuel, in favor of higher speeds and high power motors. If the bike had to run 4.5 gallons to race distance speeds would be lower but the racing would be close and at that level of talent quite amazing. The development continues. | ||
| Stevel |
I have been reading this thread for a long time and it seems most of the crowd does not understand the cause of the ZTL brake problems and it is simple physics. The brake system must absorb the momentum energy required to race. In the case of the ZTL, a single disc and a single caliper must absorb the same energy that the competitors do with two discs and two calipers. It is pretty easy to see that the ZTL will get twice as hot as the competition, as the component cooling technology in both cases is the same. The dilemma EBR faces is that the caliper, discs and pads in use in both cases is also the same technology. The ZTL is superior in a street, low duty cycle environment because of the savings in unsprung weight, but in a race environment the excess generated heat exceeds the technology of the components. That said, the solution is simple, either EBR improves the technology or they move to a twin disc system to be competitive. EBR does not manufacture their brake components, they buy them in, just like everybody else. So, that means EBR would have to admit publicly, that their ZTL doesn't cut it and they are not willing to do that.....yet. This thread has also repeatedly pointed out the lack of engine power and durability. I too believe EBR is competing with a basically stock engine. Where are the hard race parts? They are being made by all the other WSB competitors. These parts may not be available to the general public, but they are there. In the case of the Helicon, I see no signs they exist. The ICE has been around for more than 120 years, Everything that can be done has already been tried. All engine improvements today are due to modern materials, not new ideas. The US has more engine freaks per capita than any other country in the world. That also goes for hot rod shops and high performance parts manufacturers, yet the only high performance motorcycle manufacturer in the US is in last place in WSB. I understand that engine development take both time and money, but EBR has made no visible effort to engage those resources. Perhaps it is pride, I certainly can't say. There are obvious short comings in the Helicon design. Most of those are in the cylinder, head and cam designs. If EBR would make those raw castings available to independents, it would encourage development efforts of race parts and evolution of the engine at virtually no cost to EBR. EBR has to buy them in anyway for themselves. This seems to me to be a no brainer and it baffles me that they have not done this. I have personally made this same suggestion to EBR with no response. Of course, some mods will work and some will not, but no matter EBR will benefit in both cases. | ||
| Trojan |
The US has more engine freaks per capita than any other country in the world. That also goes for hot rod shops and high performance parts manufacturers, yet the only high performance motorcycle manufacturer in the US is in last place in WSB. But most of the motorsports engine and tuning companies are based in Europe, not the USA. Regardless of nationality though, it is pretty clear that EBR probably need some outside help in getting this motor up to WSB standards (if it can be done of course). Cosworth seem the obvious choice but there are plenty of other specialists with decades of WSb/MotoGP experience around that they could turn to. The EBR engine is actually a relatively old design now compared to the Panigale (the only real comparable in WSB at the moment). I think it may be hard for them to get it anywhere near the horsepower needed to start runing near the front in WSB, but maybe it can be done. On the subject of the brakes, some of us have been arguing this for years but we may as well join the flat earth society as convince people here that the ZTL brake is not the ideal brake setup for racing a superbike  At least fitting the same Brembos as everyone else would give EBR one less variable to worry about so they can concentrate on getting the motor and electronics to produce more speed. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Steve- I understand what you're saying regarding the ZTL. I view your explanation as slightly over-simiplfied, but I get your point. If no bike had ever raced with this braking system prior to EBR's efforts in WSBK it would be perfectly understandable that it might prove inadequate for this sort of racing. However, Buell and EBR have successfully competed in AMA competition since what, 2009 (?) using this braking system. It's undergone a lot of work since they started. While I'm sure there have been problems with its use in AMA, the ZTL appears to have performed more than adequately under those conditions, at least for the past 3 years. Ahh, but people say WSBK is faster and harder racing than AMA. True, but the EBR entrants are going SLOWER than they go in AMA and achieving lower top speeds. Therefore, it seems the braking system should be under LESS stress in WSBK. If it's under less stress, ZTL should hold up at least as well as it does in AMA. Maybe the braking system is the problem, but it's by no means OBVIOUS that the braking system would be the problem. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Checked the info for FP#4 this morning; no listing for Geoff. Team Hero/EBR post to FB says Geoff's bike suffered a small technical glitch which prevented him from going back out. for FP4. However, he did manage to qualify. Geoff starts 26 and Aaron starts 27 at the rear of the field.  | ||
| Vagelis46 |
The question is : How much better would EBR have done in the AMA if they used a double disc braking system ? | ||
| Hughlysses |
The EBR engine is actually a relatively old design now compared to the Panigale (the only real comparable in WSB at the moment). I think it may be hard for them to get it anywhere near the horsepower needed to start running near the front in WSB, but maybe it can be done. This goes back to the question "What are EBR's intentions for this season?" The team could spend a lot of money developing special race parts for the 1190 which might make it competitive. However, next year all those special parts would not be allowed since all the bikes will run under EVO rules. Any investments in race specific parts would basically be money down the drain. Erik is known to be a proponent of long-term strategies. Wouldn't it make more sense for the EBR engineers back in East Troy to be developing a new engine that corrects the known limitations on the ET-V2? That engine could appear on the 2015 model bikes, and be legal for use under the EVO rules next year. | ||
| Reepicheep |
We get it, we just hope it can be overcome. A lighter braking system is a better braking system, because a braking system is unsprung mass, the second worst kind of weight a bike can carry (the worst being rotational mass). A lighter system will have challenges because there is less mass to absorb and dissipate heat. That is a new challenge that must be overcome. Just saying "it is hotter because it is worse" is an oversimplification. Carbon fiber brakes in F1 run at temperatures that will melt steel, and stop great, if they are hot. I'm not saying carbon fiber brakes are the ZTL solution, I'm just saying that you can't dismiss ZTL because ZTL is lighter and will therefore get hotter. You just have to overcome the next engineering challenge that your last solution opened up a path for you to reach. I would loose interest in the EBR racing program if they produced an inline four motor with a brembo dual disk front brake setup and suddenly ran 4th in every WSBK race for the season (cough*BMW*cough). Others would be thrilled I'm sure, because their only measure of success is finish position. Nothing wrong with either position, to each their own. What matters is what the people doing the work and bringing the money to the race program want, and if they are happy with it. | ||
| Blake |
Steve >>> It is pretty easy to see that the ZTL will get twice as hot as the competition You'd be hard pressed to make a more inaccurate statement. Try comparing disk and caliper masses and surface areas. You'll then likely recognize the fallacy of your comment. Also look up how radiative heat transfer works. Hint: There's a whopping exponential relationship there. On brakes in general: Shiny brake parts make no sense if they are expected to be efficiently radiating heat. One of the biggest challenges for the EBR front brake is that the caliper opens towards the rear. Conventional front calipers open to the front. Which do you figure receives more efficient convective cooling air flow on a fast moving motorcycle? Thus the EBR ducts. Now just get rid of the caliper's shiny outer finish, maybe add some fins, develop a vented disk? Just some brainstorming. EBR, if the brake is an issue--not at all sure that it really is--are likely way ahead of any of us on the possible improvements required. The whole EBR WSB story is just beginning. | ||
| Trojan |
A lighter braking system is a better braking system, Only if it managed to stop the bike in the same or less distance than conventional brake setups. If it fades after 1/3 race distance it doesn't matter how light it is if it doesn't stop the bike. Being able to stop the bike over full race distance as good or better than the opposition MUST be the first priority of any race bike brakes. If you can then make then lighter then fine, but unsprung weight is NOT more imprtant than being able to stop when you want to! | ||
| Stevel |
Hughlysses, My comments are NOT over simplified. Do your own arithmetic. It is not rocket design. Power in must = power out. Since the brake does no work, the result is 100% heat. This is very basic thermodynamics and because it cannot get rid of the heat through cooling faster than it is being asked to absorb it, they fail. As far as the Panigale being better because it's newer is pure BS. The only thing you can say it that the motor has less faults than the Helicon and that's obvious. Let me repeat myself for clarity. There are no NEW designs for the ICE. It's all been done before, there are only reiterations of old designs with new materials. Any design is a combination of trade-offs that are compromised for a given application. In defense of the Helicon, the Desmo has been reiterated for 40 yrs. The Helicon hasn't been reiterated ever. If the Helicon receives only a little reiteration, it will easily outperform the 90 degree Desmo, if for no other reason than mass centralization. The Desmo is simply too long to position its mass far enough forward and maintain correct rear geometry within the given wheelbase length. Eric got a lot right straight-away, The design simply needs regeneration a few times before it's up-to-speed. The point of my first posting is that no one person knows everything about everything and that includes Eric. Making these reiterations easy by the huge aftermarket and external developers out there is a damn good way to go "cuz it's FREE. | ||
| Hughlysses |
My comments are NOT over simplified. Do your own arithmetic. It is not rocket design. Power in must = power out. Since the brake does no work, the result is 100% heat. This is very basic thermodynamics and because it cannot get rid of the heat through cooling faster than it is being asked to absorb it, they fail. I concur that all other factors being equal, there is the same amount of heat to be dumped with a single disk versus a double disk. I don't concur that the ZTL necessarily gets twice as hot. I said your analysis is somewhat over simplified because you omitted two significant factors: (1) The EBRs have ducted air cooling for the caliper which dual disk setups do not. Therefore, they have some additional ability to shed heat compared to a single conventional disk. (2) The area of the single perimeter rotor is greater than the area of one of the dual disks with their smaller diameter. Therefore, the EBR setup undoubtedly gets hotter than a dual disk setup, but it should not get "twice as hot as the competition". (Message edited by Hughlysses on June 07, 2014) | ||
| Jscott |
Why so much discussion regarding the brakes? It doesn't seem like the brakes are causing the HP deficit, the electrical gremlins and various other things that have caused DNF, DNS, and having to sit out of Practice sessions. Considering all the other factors the brakes seem well sorted. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Several people here say hey've heard the brakes are proving woefully inadequate for WSBK competition. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Another thought on the (so far) hypothetical brake problems. Erik said in an interview a couple of years ago that they got the idea for the cooling ducts after discussing their brake design with a NASCAR crew member. Another thing NASCAR came up with some years ago for short track braking systems might be adaptable to the ZTL. People poo-poo NASCAR for being low-tech, but racing 700 HP 3600 pound cars on short tracks and road courses has required them to develop some very good braking systems. Supposedly their hardest track for braking is Martinsville, VA. This 1/2 mile track basically consists of two ~1/4 mile straightways joined by the tightest 180 degree turns they could fit. WFO down the straightaway, brake as hard as you can at the end, go around the turn, and repeat 1000 times. As you can imagine, brakes get red hot and a major factor in winning a race is having brakes that still work at the end. Often the calipers would get so hot that not only would the brake fluid boil, but the piston seals would melt resulting in complete brake system failure. What they did was add a fluid return line to each caliper. When the driver presses the brake pedal, fluid is forced into the caliper in the conventional way. When he releases the pedal, the fluid returns to the master cylinder via a separate line. If the driver pumps the brakes regularly, the fluid can be circulated through the lines, giving it time to cool down and removing heat from the caliper. Apparently it made a dramatic difference in braking. Seems like this could be adapted to a bike easily enough, maybe even with a heat exchanger on the return brake line. This would be one other way to improve the heat dissipation capability of a ZTL setup. | ||
| Mackja |
Well I can assure you that their is a brake problem, two races ago the teams engine builder quit, so yeah it has been a huge up hill battle, no matter what it is going to take time, EBR has so much on its plate right now, for the immediate future expanding production, hiring staff, launching new products for itself and Hero, designing and building new accessories for the bikes, plus all the other non motorcycle projects the company has going on has them working like crazy, this is not a long well established company that has been building and racing on the world stage for years. So just sit back quit your bitching and give it time! Hugh, that recirculating system sounds like a winner! (Message edited by mackja on June 07, 2014) | ||
| Stevel |
Hugh, the recirculating system could certainly help, but I'm not at all certain there is available space for it. That 3600 lb. car has a lot more space than a race bike. Further, I can't see a rider pumping the brake lever anywhere near enough to circulate enough fluid. to make a difference. After all these racers are pretty busy just keeping the bike shiny side up. I suspect another distraction like that would not be well received by either Geoff or Aaron. You are correct that I do not know if the ZTL gets twice as hot as the dual disc components on the competition's bikes without measuring, but I do know they are getting too hot, large discs, air vents or otherwise. I cannot see any other solution to wick away the heat other than adding a second disc and caliper. It is the simplest viable solution. Every body knows that it will work. Just add another ZTL. I think the added unsprung mass won't make any difference. You guys are probably not old enough to remember the hard faced aluminum rotors introduced in the early seventies, but they really saved a great deal of unsprung weight and worked brilliantly.....for the street. The hard face coating was unbelievably wear resistant and provided a super finish for induced controlled friction. I used them very successfully on my café racer. They were used in MotoGp at the time. I think I still have a set laying around somewhere. They also had the ability to shed heat much faster than the steel and iron discs. These were the hot setup of the day. However, they fell out of favor because with some riders on some tracks, they got hot enough to deform plastically. This would not be an issue with the ZTL design, as the rotor is much larger. I would first try a single rotor, just like the current design. The current steel rotor is actually pretty heavy and the weight saving would be significant. If the brake system still overheated, I would then add another rotor on the other side. This could be done with very little, if any, weight penalty over what is currently in use. Further to this suggestion, we now have high silicon eutectic aluminum alloys like 4032 and other alloys in that family, which were not available in the '70s. These alloys have significantly higher temperature tolerance as well as a lower coefficient of expansion than what these earlier rotors were made from. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Steve, yea, I'm sure it'd be a distraction they don't need. I don't even know if NASCAR uses this setup any longer; they may have found an alternate solution. A second rotor would seem to be an obvious solution, and wouldn't negate the "ZTL" aspect of the system, so it still could be lighter than a conventional dual disk system and wheel. Riohondohank posted in the AMA thread last week that EBR tried a new front brake rotor on Cory West's bike during practice for Road America, but that it didn't work out. Maybe EBR is trying something like your suggestion already. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What if Erik and Pawan sat down and said wouldn't it be freaking awesome if we could be racing WSBK? And then sat down and figured out how they could do it on a sane budget? Then figured out how to make it also an R&D excercise for the engineering and improvement of the street bike in order to justify the investment? What if the goal wasn't first to win, but instead was primarily to refine a street bike into a street bike that could be purchased by anyone for $17,000, ridden legally on the street to a WSBK race, spend 30 minutes getting another $1000 in pit work done, and then hit the track and qualify within 110% of a full on factory WSBK superbike? That'd be pretty awesome to me. WSBK is supposed to have the best riders on the best machines racing to be the best of the best. Don't come to race until you're ready. It's not a training ground. Two machines doing so is two less of the best. Rocket in England | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
Hi to everyone. I am knew to this forum,but I am not new to Buell (I own a 2009 xb12r Firebolt) and have very enthusiastically been following E.B.R. since it's inception.and what I see written here everyday are mostly positive bits as we are all diehard Buell,EBR fans and most of all dedicated motorcyclist's and race fans.but after following the world superbike races to this point ,I must say it is beyond disappointing.I certainly understand the handicap that the team has had getting started.a new machine riders new to the tracks etc. but hearing the types of failures they are having and the mostly last place finishes seems as though the team has no clue what is going on.What happened to good old R&D testing the hell out of a bike before you race it ? and having an abundance of parts trackside .EBR's first season in AMA superbike was so far there most successful yet .but since then it is all downhill,And one other thing is why does the 1190RX have only a 6200 mile valve adjustment interval? even Ducati is up to 18.000 miles and the EBR website shows a poster saying (north of 185 mph) and Cycle World mag clocked it at approx.161 mph. I am sorry for the long negative rant but I am not seeing any reason to celebrate. | ||
| Classax |
I don't think anyone is celebrating. I can personally attest the RX will go north of 177mph as measured by GPS and it was still pulling hard with room to go when we ran out of road...urr ah track.(I prefer curvy roads to straight ones) As far as valve adjustments go, that's the price of the type of power its making. I'm due for mine this week and I'll let you know how it goes. I have a feeling it will go back to the same interval as the 1125r once they have been seen to be OK. The EBR WBK effort is unfortunately looking more and more like a knife in a gun fight for a number of reasons. Despite what some will say, I feel if you're fast enough to make the grid, get out there and do your best, even if you get lapped in the process. I am deeply concerned about the "electrical" problems Geoff continues facing. Nothing worse than a bad ground on an aircraft or bike, makes trouble shooting more of a crap shoot until you find it. I don't know if that's the problem but it has all the symptoms. As far as the brakes, the ZTL actually does its job too well, transforming motion into heat via friction. Dissipating that heat is what appears to be the issue. The race bikes eat rotors and pads, which are changed almost every session from what I have been made to understand. So when they say they don't last full race distance are they talking about pads, rotors, or is the fluid getting hot enough to create fade. I notice that calipers have a fair amount of flex, does that worsen or remain constant with heat? I had no idea the team lost their engine guy. Where is that information coming from? Is that before or after they smoked a couple on track? Or did they loose him as result of it? Its a long series, in what has thus far been a disappointingly bitter sweet en-devour. Bitter because it isn't turning out as well as anyone would have hope or would like, but SWEET cause they're still in the game trying to make it work! It will be interesting to see what comes to market for 2015. Will other MFGs be forced to raise prices and ship what they will race to show rooms, or will they race what they opt to sell, or will it be business as usual where they homologate the race bike and then down spec the production versions via the gaping loop hole in the current rules. I love the RSV4 but engine wise, what you get when you buy one wouldn't make or last an EVO race in WSB. EBR is out there making it happen and I suspect the heavy guns( knife replacements) are still on the way. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...I would then add another rotor on the other side. This could be done with very little, if any, weight penalty over what is currently in use. Uh...weightless caliper? G | ||
| Mackja |
I really don't think I should say where my info is coming from, might cause that person some grief, lets just say it is 1st hand. No rumors here, facts, just the facts. (Message edited by mackja on June 07, 2014) | ||
| Hughlysses |
From Team Hero/EBR's FB page:
I'm sorry, this is getting ridiculous. Good luck to Aaron. | ||
| Gregtonn |
regretfully Geoff will not take part due to a small electronic issue that we are unable to fix. So what is a large electronic issue? G | ||
| Classax |
Wow... in six rounds Geoff has only run in 2 1/2 races? Got to be disheartening for the whole team. | ||
| Jscott |
Yeah again - I think the issues are waaaaaay bigger than a debate over the effectiveness of the ZTL. | ||
| Tpoppa |
There are methods of R&D that are both cheaper and more effective than entering WSBK. |
