| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
If I was an engineer designing electronics for control systems, I would much rather have logs from real races with real riders on the real bike than a plot made by a man walking around with a wheel. | ||
| Trojan |
How close to a production bike do most teams run? Not very. The EBR bike is though. Can it compete on a world stage? Yep. Win? Not yet, but this IS their first year of trying. I think you miss the point a bit. Most of the bikes are actually pretty close to the production bikes in many areas such as the frame and major engine components, but then they are able to make a lot of other changes within the rules. EBR can do exactly the same thing so they can't call foul if they aren't playing to the rule book like everyone else. If they wanted to run in a 'stock' class then they should have entered Superstock instead. I'm not sure what EBR started out at, but I'd bet it's a HELL of a lot less and they're still able to qualify and run in these races. I'd bet a Superstock bike could easily qualify witihin 107% of the leader, but the idea is to win not just get in under the wire (just). At the moment the EBR WSb racers are slower than the 600 Supersport bikes at most tracks, so there is obviously a problem somewhere. I also found out that there are no practice sessions outside of the race weekend. The guys that have been racing those circuits have at least 1-3 years of experience on the tracks that the EBR team have never even seen other than on a video game. Teams can practice/test as much as they like, just not at WSb circuits. There are though organised test sessions at WSB circuits that all teams can attend. There are other riders ahead of the EBR guys who also haven't ridden at these tracks before (Alex Lowes, Christian Iddon for example), and also new manufacturers in the same situation who haven't raced on these circuits (MV & Bimota). The team knew that the riders they chose had no experience at WSb tracks when they hired them. Personally I think that was a mistake but they wanted American riders. The biggest difference between the other new teams and the EBR team are that both the Bimota and MV teams are experienced tams in either WSb or WSS (Alstare and Yachnich both have long histories in the series), albeit with different bikes. The EBR team have apparently got very experienced crew members and I'm sure (I would HOPE) at least some have WSB experience (The manager certainly does), so they should be at the same level as MV/Bimota at least. Maybe they need to hire more technical staff with more WSB experience. If I was an engineer designing electronics for control systems, I would much rather have logs from real races with real riders on the real bike than a plot made by a man walking around with a wheel. So would I, but you have to have a base setting to start with and testing is restricted at WSb race circuits. I'm sure they adapt the settings to suit the riders once they get a chance. Lastly, money shouldn't be an issue for EBR in WSB. If they have a sponsor with such deep pockets as Hero then they should be able to afford to race at the same level as the other factories. However I doubt that Hero are actually putting up a lot of money though (in WSB terms at least), as the team setup looks more 'privateer' than 'factory' somehow, and things like the apparently lack of parts and inability to fix an electrical problem all weekend doesn't look like a 'big' team setup. I may be wrong but it would be interesting to know exactly what the budget is and exactly how much factory involvement there is in the team. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...thanks for the explanation on the GPS traction control setup... There is much more to the electronics system than just traction control and not all traction control systems use GPS. Until someone can state an actual number that Hero contributes to the EBR race program how much money they have is irrelevant. G | ||
| Tpoppa |
I would like to see the GPS go away completely from racing. That's just not real racing to me. It's never going to trickle down to production bikes, and takes too much of the human element out of the race. Not a fan. (Message edited by tpoppa on June 03, 2014) | ||
| Fast1075 |
I watched "The Unrideables" again on Velocity the other day. Far cry from the modern bikes. Those 500's were nasty, mean, and evil. The electronics make it a LOT less likely to get a "moon shot" high side from too much throttle. | ||
| Office_buelly |
I don't think we'll see much change at the next race either. I will give both riders credit for being able to learn the track quickly and don't think the riders are the biggest issue for EBR right now. Experienced riders familiar with the tracks would be good for tenths of a second but would not make up the missing ~30km/h. I can only imagine the missing speed is the number 1 priority of the team at this point. Once they sort that out I think we'll see real progress from the riders and then the team can start focusing on the fine tuning. I wish them luck but feel like this year might prove unconquerable and that we'll see some big revisions for next year. Personally I've put off buying this years model until more information is released, guess I'll have to ride the 1125r a little longer then I wished. | ||
| Davegess |
There is no limit to what you can spend BUT you have to be willing to sell the same bike you race for no more than $450,000. BMW pulled out because they were unwilling to sell a bike for less than $600,000. | ||
| Mog |
With a decent investment in past things Buell, to include a real XBRR, I agree with Office Buelly. The EBR 1190RX seems to be fraught with too many niggling issues in the race world. That being the proving ground for the street version, I will reserve my date and model of purchase until the bike makes more significant starts and finishes. I am deeply saddened to see Erik Buell Racing having a less than stellar year at the races. I am however, extremely proud of his endeavor so far, to scale the heights of WSB. He will get it done and most probably perfectly..... I will await that model that does represent the pinnacle and ride the 2008 1125R in the interim. | ||
| Jscott |
Sepang FP1 1. Marco MELANDRI, Italy (Aprilia RSV4 Factory), 2:05.167 2. Toni ELIAS, Spain (Aprilia RSV4 Factory), 2:05.222 3. Sylvain GUINTOLI, France (Aprilia RSV4 Factory), 2:05.291 4. Tom SYKES, UK (Kawasaki ZX-10R), 2:05.703 5. Davide GIUGLIANO, Italy (Ducati 1199 Panigale R), 2:05.926 6. Chaz DAVIES, UK (Ducati 1199 Panigale R), 2:05.964 7. Jonathan REA, UK (Honda CBR1000RR), 2:06.141, crash 8. Loris BAZ, France (Kawasaki ZX-10R), 2:06.177 9. Leon HASLAM, UK (Honda CBR1000RR), 2:06.846 10. Alex LOWES, UK (Suzuki GSX-R1000), 2:06.856 11. Eugene LAVERTY, Ireland (Suzuki GSX-R1000), 2:06.867, crash 12. Alessandro ANDREOZZI, Italy (Kawasaki ZX-10R), EVO, 2:07.830 13. Ayrton BADOVINI, Italy (Bimota BB3), EVO, 2:07.837 14. Ckaudio CORTI, Italy (MV Agusta F4 RR), 2:07.864 15. Leon CAMIER, UK (BMW S1000RR), EVO, 2:08.018 16. David SALOM, Spain (Kawasaki ZX-10R), EVO, 2:08.024 17. Fabien FORET, France (Kawasaki ZX-10R), EVO, 2:08.165 18. Christian IDDON, UK (Bimota BB3), EVO, 2:08.610 19. Niccolo CANEPA, Italy (Ducati 1199 Panigale R), EVO, 2:08.759 20. Imre TOTH, Hungary (BMW S1000RR), 2:09.373 21. Romain LANUSSE, France (Kawasaki ZX-10R), EVO, 2:09.411 22. Sheridan MORAIS, South Africa (Kawasaki ZX-10R), EVO, 2:09.508 23. Jeremy GUARNONI, France (Kawasaki ZX-10R), EVO, 2:09.600 24. Bryan STARING, Australia (Kawasaki ZX-10R), EVO, 2:10.414 25. Geoff MAY, USA (EBR 1190RX), 2:10.938 26. Aaron YATES, USA (EBR 1190RX), 2:11.191 27. Peter SEBESTYEN, Hungary (BMW S1000RR), EVO, 2:12.321 | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
oh yeah, its totally working out for them being at a track no one has practiced at before... | ||
| Trojan |
Looking at the speeds it appears that EBR have found some speed since last race, however I suspect this is due ton gearing rather than power gains or miracle cures as everyone else has founds the same amount. The gap is still pretty fixed at 30kph. Problems in FP2 again by the look of it though...... Some of the guys have raced at Sepang before in MotoGP or support classes, but there are still a lot of riders/teams ahead of them who are as new to this track as the EBR team are sadly. | ||
| Classax |
" Most of the bikes are actually pretty close to the production bikes in many areas such as the frame and major engine components, but then they are able to make a lot of other changes within the rules." I have already posted parts list for Kawi, Suzuki, Aprilia, and Honda. Even the EVO bikes are nowhere close to what one would buy off the show room floor. They are chock full of homologated race kit, that can be swapped for low cost production fair. This is true to a great extent in the superstock class as well, so let's stop implying it. The facts are, until EBR has developed similar race specific kit they are out there racing with pretty much showroom kit engines, which is outstanding considering what the other MFG's do to get their machines into race trim. I would be willing to concede that perhaps the 1190RX design may not have as much outright HP potential as other machines on the grid even with significant modifications and exotic race kit, but we all know in its current form its not an apples to apples comparison. THAT said we are still way too slow in WSB trim compared to street and AMA trim. If they wanted to run in a 'stock' class then they should have entered Superstock instead.....I'd bet a Superstock bike could easily qualify witihin 107% of the leader, but the idea is to win not just get in under the wire We've been over this before. The idea was to "develop a superbike for sale capable of competing at the highest levels" by "developing the machine on the race track" and to "gain international press", in "a year which (they) obviously would like to win, but in reality will be a learning year". "NOT build a million dollar one or two off prototype," NOT necessarily to win a race. The goal is to build a great superbike not a great race bike. At the moment the EBR WSb racers are slower than the 600 Supersport bikes at most tracks, so there is obviously a problem somewhere. As they are against plenty of the EVO bikes as well. A full on, no holds barred 600 with the ability to rev to the moon, can be just as powerful a track weapon as a superstock/evo 1000, on some tracks maybe even more so. Hallelujah! we agree on something! There is obviously still something wrong with the WSB EBR's because their street and AMA bikes are turning in higher trap speeds with less room to get there at tracks across the US. "The team knew that the riders they chose had no experience at WSb tracks when they hired them. Personally I think that was a mistake but they wanted American riders." I think they wanted riders who knew the bikes and could continue their development. That is not a mistake. Are there guys out there with more pace who could get more out of the EBR's as is. I think so, but they would have had to come to grips with the bikes first. Its tough enough that the crew isn't all that familiar with them, at least having riders who know the bikes a bit helps somewhat. But yes they likely could place higher with more elite riders. Lastly, money shouldn't be an issue for EBR in WSB. If they have a sponsor with such deep pockets as Hero then they should be able to afford to race at the same level as the other factories. However I doubt that Hero are actually putting up a lot of money though (in WSB terms at least), as the team setup looks more 'privateer' than 'factory' somehow, and things like the apparently lack of parts and inability to fix an electrical problem all weekend doesn't look like a 'big' team setup. I may be wrong but it would be interesting to know exactly what the budget is and exactly how much factory involvement there is in the team." Boy I have to admit its getting harder and harder to argue against that. Still rooting for them though! Go EBR! | ||
| Jscott |
Interesting question…would it be more advantageous to have a crew familiar with the bike rather than a rider? I would think a competent rider could adapt to a well setup bike quickly. | ||
| Mackja |
Development takes time, they are working on several issues at this time, first one is keeping the front end down, the thing just wheelies like crazy, the team has not received the new swing arms yet, the other issue is the brakes, right now they are lasting around a 3rd of the race and then they are gone, and this is an improvement from the stock system which would last around 3 laps and no brakes. They are running the RS cams not the RX, so why the top end power issue I can't say. I will give it time to work out some kinks, while many say dump the brake system, I can tell you that won't happen, but I am willing to bet they will figure it out! I am just glad they are there, this year I am not expecting much, now next year I will want to see some marked improvement. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Good info Mackja! | ||
| Tpoppa |
Are they having the same problems with wheelies and brakes in AMA races? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Thanks for the info Mackja. It's crazy they haven't gotten the new swingarms yet; the team posted several races back that they'd have the new swingarms for the next race. The brake issue is baffling. (The following questions are intended for the group- not directed specifically at you.) How have the brakes worked well in AMA but coming up woefully short for WSBK? Considering that they're running and qualifying slower in WSBK than they are in AMA Superbike, why would the brakes be under any additional stress? If the brakes work fine for 1/3 the race and then give out, you'd think EBR's qualifying times would be much better than their overall race performance, but that doesn't seem to be true. My current thought on the subject is the factory guys must be too busy developing the next models in EBR's range to help the race team. Maybe the factory engineers will get caught up shortly and get involved. I can't imagine those guys couldn't get these kinks worked out quickly. | ||
| Office_buelly |
If wheelies are a problem, I wonder if that is being affected by the added on fuel tank high over the rear of the bike. If they could enlarge the frame rails enough to hold that extra fuel needed and eliminate the extra tank it might not cure the problem but it would certainly help. Not to mention the bike was designed w/o that tank, it can't be helping the aeros of the bike at all nor the handling. | ||
| Mackja |
Their where problems with the brakes in the AMA, they worked with several pad manufacturers until they developed a pad that would not build up so much heat. I think because the track designs over seas are longer and faster more pressure is being placed on the brake system. In November last year I was at a track day with Geoff when he told me Brembo was helping in the design of the brake system and that the rx might come with Brembo's from the factory. It is possible that the brakes are causing a confidence issue with the riders, kinda scary not knowing if you are going to slow down going deep into a corner. The fuel tank has added an additional 20lbs to the bike and could have something to do with handling. I do know the wheelie control is having problems. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ That might explain things- slightly longer straightaways combined with ~20 lbs more weight could push the brakes past some critical threshold so that they're giving out under these conditions. I can imagine that, given time, EBR might alter the frame design to provide the required fuel capacity so they can get rid of the auxiliary fuel tank. A good question is if that would be legal on this year's bike or if it would nullify the homolgation. A change like that might have to wait for the 2015 model. Of course if the factory guys have developed the AX model, they may already have a higher fuel capacity frame ready to go. | ||
| Riohondohank |
I can't imagine that the extra aluminum tank weighs much. If you increase the fuel capacity in the frame you still have the weight of the extra fuel at 6 lbs per gallon. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ I unintentionally combined 2 separate points which is confusing now that I re-read it. Point 1- Brakes may be a problem because of slightly higher peak speeds and slightly more weight. Point 2- Putting the additional fuel capacity in the frame wouldn't lower the weight appreciably (if at all) but it would centralize the mass better and put the extra weight toward the front of the bike where they'd rather have it, which should improve the handling and lessen the tendency to wheelie. (Message edited by Hughlysses on June 06, 2014) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is not hard to understand that the ZTL is a MAJOR problem for the EBR in WSBK...... I feel sorry for the riders....... not having confidence on the brakes, is the worst thing that can happen ... It is crazy ... why not try a double disc at least on one of the bikes to have as reference ?? Then the gap to the front will get reduced, and at the same time they can develop the ZTL... I LOVE the ZTL... honestly ... for the street is OK...but for racing ??? It is crazy .......... | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
so they are doing bad because they can't get parts/parts developed? This is a factory team with deep pockets (dont care who says what, HERO has deep pockets and with their name on the side of the bike should be putting in enough cash to get a swingarm for the bike etc), its silly that they arent able to get parts for it that are NEEDED. | ||
| Reepicheep |
People should stop projecting. First people say that the EBR WSBK is a failure because its not mid or top pack already after just a few races in it's first season as a team and on a bike that is brand new. And say Hero should be upset as a result because their massive investment isn't paying off. Then they say Hero has infinite resources, and just isn't paying enough, and that's the problem. What if Hero had a low budget and low expectations... what if they just wanted to be racing, and offered enough to do that. And what if EBR also wanted to just go racing, and figured it would be more useful to gather data by racing then by watching racing and paying "experts"? And what if EBR wanted to use WSBK racing as the BHAG to make the bike, and the systems like the ZTL, the best they could possibly be? Creating a problem and throwing it in front of a set of really talented engineers... where it sits like a raw steak in front of a pack of hungry dogs? I get that some people think the only way you should enter WSBK is with a sole goal of winning. I hope others can understand that others may be entering the race with other agendas. What if Erik and Pawan sat down and said wouldn't it be freaking awesome if we could be racing WSBK? And then sat down and figured out how they could do it on a sane budget? Then figured out how to make it also an R&D excercise for the engineering and improvement of the street bike in order to justify the investment? What if the goal wasn't first to win, but instead was primarily to refine a street bike into a street bike that could be purchased by anyone for $17,000, ridden legally on the street to a WSBK race, spend 30 minutes getting another $1000 in pit work done, and then hit the track and qualify within 110% of a full on factory WSBK superbike? That'd be pretty awesome to me. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It is not hard to understand that the ZTL is a MAJOR problem for the EBR in WSBK...... Well, yes, it is hard to understand. IF the EBR WSBK bikes were going significantly faster than the EBR AMA bikes it wouldn't be hard to understand, but they seem to actually be going slower. IF the brakes are in fact a problem, there must be other differences between AMA and WSBK that aren't obvious. The WSBK bikes must be at least slightly heavier than the AMA bikes (~10 lbs of fuel plus the tank to hold it, maybe +20 lbs as suggested above), so that's a negative. Perhaps the peak speeds at the end of the longer WSBK straights are higher than the peak speeds at the end of typical AMA straightaways even though average EBR lap speeds are lower. The combination of these two factors could be enough to push a braking system that was satisfactory in the AMA series past its endurance point so that it's not holding up under WSBK conditions. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"First people say that the EBR WSBK is a failure because its not mid or top pack already after just a few races in it's first season as a team and on a bike that is brand new." Its more than that - failure to qualify, start, or finish races are, to me, bigger issues than running at the back of the pack. I get that there is a learning curve involved, but come on. | ||
| Tpoppa |
There is far too much grasping in this thread. Both grasping for answers and grasping for excuses. At the end of the day, professional level competition is about results and nothing else. Those currently involved aren't getting the job done. Who came in last place at the 2013 Daytona 500? What was their excuse? The correct answer is "who cares." | ||
| Reepicheep |
That simply isn't true. There are a lot of reasons to compete. Winning is an important one, but not the only one.
That is simply false as well. If the 2013 Daytona last place runner learned something fundamental about the bike, the rider, or the track, and the result was a better bike, personal satisfaction, or important information for next season, then one or many people will absolutely care. Even if most don't know why they care. Erik Buell never won a world title when he was racing. But it sure as hell matters to me that he was racing, no matter what place he came in, as it has dramatically shaped the bikes that drew me to the Buell / EBR brand in the first place. I know it sounds like I am making excuses. I personally don't really care what place EBR comes in. I'd be thrilled if they were doing great, but to me the biggest achievement was building a company that can race and qualify, and having the courage and spunk to try. I'm not making excuses for performance, I am stating, as a plain and simple fact, that there is at least one person who very much does care and is very happy to see them trying regardless of the current results. And I am not alone. Its a fact. Deal with it. I don't blame others who want to judge a professional competition simply by results absent any other factors. I can deal with that. If you say you think the effort is lame, I have no beef with that. Its when people say everyone has to think it's lame that I speak up. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"but to me the biggest achievement was building a company that can race and qualify" slow down... they dont always do the second one, which leads to the first |
