| Author | Message | ||
     Ebmachine |
It would be great to watch EBR compete in World Superbike like they did in this video clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qetWxMAHVqU | ||
| V74 |
Gschuette thanks, thats the sort of info that comes from motogp but you don't seem to hear much from WSBK for some reason, some riders say their good in one part of the corner but not another, from time comparisons so far it seems to me the 1190 is good in the corners but its top speed that it needs the most at the moment with that that will place more emphasis on braking and the corners, MM in motogp often wins with a slightly lower top speed than those behind him but its not by much, with the 1190 being some 17mph down that's got to hurt. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
It's no secret firing the bike off the corner is where time is gained. Ducati have had this 'advantage' for years as the power pulse from the V twins allowed the tyres to perform better off the corner over same tyres on the fours. It's why Yamaha went with a 'big bang' engine R1, they trying to create the same power pulse as a V twin. EBR would know this so it's doubtful they're losing time by being disadvantaged coming off the corners. Which is not the same as saying, if EBR have a problem coming off the corner then they've got something not right! Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
The advantage that twins used to have in terms of torque and powering out of corners has been effectively negated by modern electronics. The Kawasaki ZX10 for instance goes onto two cylinders in corners so that they can keep driving. As soon as the bike starts to get upright the other two cylinders cut in and they have full acceleration. The rider can pretty much nail the throttle mid turn and not get caught out by full power highsides. Obviously it is a lot more complicated than that and based on individual track layouts and very complicated electronics strategies etc, but the old premise that one engine configuration is better than another is now consigned to history  Suzuki changed their entire electronics operation between Imola and Donington apparently, so that they no longer rely on wheel sensors but everything is based on engine sensors and torque sensors. Electronics is where races are won and lost now and EBR need to get up to speed very quickly on this aspect of WSb racing if they want to compete. Even though the rules are changing for next year the ECU will NOT be a spec item like in BSB or MotoGP (from 2016). WSB Teams will still be able to choose form a list of suppliers just like they do with brakes and suspension now. This means that even under proposed cost cutting measures electronics will still by at the forefront of race development If I were running the EBR race team right now I'd be searching through a UK phone book for Cosworths number  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I didn't know that about the Kawasaki Matt. Very interesting, and the Suzuki electronics strategy too. I need to look further. Thanks. If I were running the EBR race team right now I'd be searching through a UK phone book for Cosworths number Surely EBR have the Internet?  Rocket in England | ||
| Crusty |
Surely EBR have the Internet? EBR does have Internet access; and don't call him Shirley! | ||
| Court |
>>>>Surely EBR have the Internet? particularly in view of the fact that they were one of the first manufactures of wheeled vehicles in the world to have a www website. Little bit of history . . . . | ||
| V74 |
if going round a corner at speed was as simple as that ducati would have cured their understeer problem years ago.maybe they should get EBR to solve it. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I can't believe I called anyone Shirley. Especially not Eric Ricket in England | ||
| M2typhoon |
Crash.net via Alex Lowes. “I have missed a lot of track time and sessions – not because of anything the team have done – but because of the electronics. If your GPS doesn't work, then you can't even ride it - you'll be three seconds slower because different corners are set at different parameters." An interesting comment to say the least. | ||
| Trojan |
Pretty much everyone uses GP derived GPS based electronics these days in WSB. Some are 'tagged' to track markers used for lap timing while the more sophisticated 'know' where they are at all times on track using GPS technology. This is what separates winners and losers at this level unfortunately and even when they 'dumb down' the rules in future we won't see the end of the electronics era. The electronics have also caused a few crahes when the system gets 'confused'. For instance if a rider cuts across the track or misses a section of tracdk out of a lap, the system starts to think it is in a corner when on the straight and vice versa. This happened to Nicky Hayden and Cal Crutchlow at Ducati in Moto GP. One crashed and one just limped home. Suzuki are still developing their electronics strategies so as I mentioned above they have drastically changed the way their system works and now use entirely engine based sensors rather than wheel speed spensors for things like engine braking and anti wheelie etc. Kawasaki are probably the leaders in WSB electroncis at the moment, with Aprilia and Ducati in close competition. Honda have changed thei rsystem almost every year recently and now use a Cosworth system rather than the HRC one they tried last year. | ||
| Mog |
WSB 2015 will use the new Google Rider Twist Assist. The Twist Assist is the driver and the rider is just along for..... the ride, of course.   | ||
| Gregtonn |
...but because of the electronics... I was wondering if anyone one would ever catch on to what the problem is. Carry on. G | ||
| Hughlysses |
I was wondering if anyone one would ever catch on to what the problem is. So Greg, you're saying you think that's EBR's chief problem? Some more data points for our on-going AMA Superbike/WSBK speed comparison. In today's practice session at Road America, Cameron Beaubier (fastest) turned a trap speed of 172.977 on a Yamaha, Cory West (8th fastest) on an EBR managed 169.045, while Larry Pegram (9th) on an EBR as well as Chris Fillmore (10th) on a KTM turned 164.956. I'm still baffled at the EBR WSBK bikes being so much slower than their counterparts in the AMA. <3 MPH difference in AMA, ~15 MPH difference in WSBK. Not the same bikes, but you'd think the relative speeds should be comparable. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
But what are the speeds for AMA v WSBK EBR's. That's the comparison. Rocket in England | ||
| Mog |
Come on guys..... it says right there on the outside of the box!   | ||
| Hughlysses |
So, race coming up this weekend at Sepang, which is a new track (or at least practically a new track) for WSBK. Does this finally put Team Hero/EBR on somewhat of a level playing feel as far as bike setup and riders knowing the course? | ||
| Gregtonn |
So, race coming up this weekend at Sepang, which is a new track (or at least practically a new track) for WSBK. Does this finally put Team Hero/EBR on somewhat of a level playing feel as far as bike setup and riders knowing the course? Only if they get their electronics issues worked out. G | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
likely not. I doubt that a new track will suddenly make them 20-30mph faster to catch up with the rest of the racers on the track. I also doubt it being a new track will help them to a) make the race, and b) finish said race. | ||
| Hughlysses |
From what's been posted here, the key part of the electronics is GPS based traction control. The only way to get the parameters for setting up the device is by running the course. EBR, not having competed at any of the other tracks, is obviously at a major disadvantage compared to teams who have. Maybe all the teams will be 15-20 MPH down as a result? Hybrid: | ||
| Crusty |
The funny part is that Oddball was right! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
less "negative" and more "real" whatever the issue might be, I highly doubt they'll miraculously do incredibly better this week and be mid-pack or better. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I'm not expecting, but of course I'm hoping they'll do miraculously better this weekend. We've all been speculating all season about why the two EBR bikes have been SO slow relative to the competition. The fact that none (?) of the riders or teams competing this weekend have experience on this track at least evens out that factor to a large degree. Maybe this will give us a much better idea of how far the EBR 1190RX is from being competitive. | ||
| Trojan |
From what's been posted here, the key part of the electronics is GPS based traction control. The only way to get the parameters for setting up the device is by running the course. EBR, not having competed at any of the other tracks, is obviously at a major disadvantage compared to teams who have. Or, You employ a data wizard who knows how to programme the electronics even without visiting the track. The track information is readily available and all it needs is for someone to walk the track with a device (like a wheel on a stick, such as they use for measuring roads) that is connected to the ECU and 'reads' the track layout. I'm sure all of the teams and Marelli have either visited the track and done this already, or paid someone to do it for them. Once they actrually get to the track is should be just a case of fine tuning the electronics for engine braking and anti wheelie etc to suit the riders. Marelli (other electronics are available) also have all the Motogp data from Sepang to work from, and most WSB electronics are based on MotoGP technology anyway. I'm pretty sure that Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki won't be turning up with blank faces and empty ECU's on the first day of practice. (Message edited by trojan on June 03, 2014) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
The fact that none (?) of the riders or teams competing this weekend have experience on this track at least evens out that factor to a large degree. Maybe this will give us a much better idea of how far the EBR 1190RX is from being competitive. Sadly I doubt track knowledge is making much difference, the opposite will prove true. The gap will be about the same as it has been in previous rounds. Rocket in England | ||
| D_adams |
So just out of curiosity, what's the dollar limit on the bike you can enter in this series? $100k? $150k? Any of you internet hero's from over there know for a fact what it is? | ||
| Trojan |
At the moment there is no total limit that you can spend on the team/bike setup. However there are a number of components that are 'cost loimited' by the FIM and these are lsited in the technical rules. At the moment these are limited to suspension and brakes I think, although the rumours suggest that next year there will be ECU/Electronics added to the approved suppliers lists. Other 'cost cutting' rules they have brought in include the single bike rule, although the team is free to carry enough spares to build a complete bike anyway so that hasn't actually saved anything. So long as the manufacturer can meet the homologation rules you cans pretty much spend what you like  I think the only way to stop that would be to introduce a kind of claiming rule like the AMA used to have (although the factories always found ways around that too!) | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
what does dollar limit have to do with this? HERO is the largest bike manufacturer in the world, Im sure they can keep up (financially) with the rest if they would like. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Matt- thanks for the explanation on the GPS traction control setup. If electronics is really their problem, I'd say either they're having difficulty to adapting them to the EBR platform or they don't have the right guys working on it, or both. It sounds like the one factor EBR may have going for them this weekend is that lack of rider experience on the track should be less of a factor. At least that should give us a better idea of how the Geoff and Aaron's lack of experience on the WSBK tracks has played into their struggles this season. | ||
| D_adams |
My point was exactly that, how much are the "big" teams spending to go as fast as they do? Base entry is up around $450,000 to start. Yeah, seems a little ridiculous, doesn't it? I'm not sure what EBR started out at, but I'd bet it's a HELL of a lot less and they're still able to qualify and run in these races. I was a little shocked to find that out last week when I was at the EBR factory. How close to a production bike do most teams run? Not very. The EBR bike is though. Can it compete on a world stage? Yep. Win? Not yet, but this IS their first year of trying. Is it more bike than I'll ever need? Yep. Bought it anyway. I guess I like the American underdog story. I also found out that there are no practice sessions outside of the race weekend. The guys that have been racing those circuits have at least 1-3 years of experience on the tracks that the EBR team have never even seen other than on a video game. |
