| Author | Message | ||
     Classax |
all the other bikes were on the brakes later, the ebr approx 60 meters before that point. that's why topspeed is so low. One has to wonder if that is lack of rider confidence and on the brakes early because of not being as comfortable with the track, or just plain lack of rider confidence in the brakes full stop? | ||
| Court |
>>>One has to wonder if that is lack of rider confidence and on the brakes early because of not being as comfortable with the track, or just plain lack of rider confidence in the brakes full stop? I also am interested in the fact that it's in direct conflict with reports, over the past couple years of AMA racing, that indicated the opposite. Could be rider? Tracks? Evidence of difference between AMA and WSBK | ||
| Vagelis46 |
ZTL .... to be or not to be ?? I think it is time for a double ZTL with 2 discs...... the discs can be made thinner and less wide, so that the weight is not increased that much, and 2 smaller 4piston calipers could be used instead of the 8piston...... This way EBR keeps its beloved&trademark ZTL , and the riders get their braking confidence back........ Win-Win scenario ! | ||
| Hughlysses |
The front caliper was new for Assen. If there were any lingering issues with braking hopefully that'll make the difference. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
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| Rocket_in_uk |
That's a stunning looking Guzzi! Rocket in England | ||
| Sparky |
They've already improved the air duct (itself an idea from race cars, it's been said) by making it bigger. I wonder if they'll try a vented rotor with radial holes like race cars have next. Just got back from the Tudor Continental Tire Monterey Grand Prix and was in awe at the braking setups the Prototypes and GTLM cars use - ducted and vented carbon fiber rotors are the norm. | ||
| Trojan |
That Guzzi (Ghezzi & Brian) predates ZTL by a good few years. The brakes were made by Braking in Italy and were tried on Aprilia GP 125 and 250 bikes as well if I remember correctly. What they found was that despite the weight advantage they offered no fundamental advantage over 'traditional' twin disc setups. I don't know if they still make them, but they used to offer the front wheel/brake kit for the Buell tube frame models  I remember Reg Kitrell testing them in an issue of BattleTwin many years ago....(He cam eot the same conclusion regrds functionality by the way). Sometimes there are engineering ideas that in theory should work much better than current designs (hub centre steering, carbon monocoque frame, carbon swingarms etc) yet never catch on simply because they are just not quit egood enough to replace the current kit, or offer no advantage in practice. I'm afraid I have always felt a bit like that about the ZTL brake, and although I am aware of the theoretical advantages I still think that 99.9% of the WSB paddock can't all be wrong in using Brembo's well developed and astounding good (and remarkebly light) twin disc/radial caliper brakes. I've documented our race problems with ZTL 1 in the past so won't go into that again. Suffice to say things improved markedly on the braking front once we fitted a set of Yamaha R1 forks/brakes/wheel | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I would like EBR to try all the possible setups with the ZTL , before giving it up to switch to traditional brakes...... I am sure the WSBK involment will speed up the development to the maximum....... | ||
| Blake |
>>> What they found was that despite the weight advantage they offered no fundamental advantage over 'traditional' twin disc setups. On account of failing to take advantage of the complete elimination of torque transmitted through the hub and spokes of the wheel and the huge weight reduction that makes possible. Those are nothing but show bike brakes. The Buell/EBR version are race proven performance enhancing full floating. Some people expect innovative idea to debut fully evolved at their potential technological peak of performance. Some are just stubborn. When an EBR eventually makes its way to a WSBK podium, the naysayers will again turn silent. | ||
| Blake |
And Matt, your (rather ancient) experience is one data point. In the interest of fairness, full disclosure, honesty and accuracy, please compare/contrast to the experience of the championship winning 1190RR of Harald Kitsch and the Pegasus Race Team, also the podiums and VERY respectable performance of Geoff May and Danny Eslick and the Amsoili/Hero/EBR AMA SBK team, and also the championship winning performance of the Geico/EBR AMA Sport Bike team. You know, instead of pretending that the Braking version is equivalent to what EBR is running. Lets try to be serious. The problems in WSBK are not due to the brake. New tires, new ECM,an engine down on power, a complete lack of well-developed racing traction control (ask BMW about this challenge in WSBK)l, and excepting the riders, a team entirely unfamiliar with the unconventional EBR machine. But hey, let's ignore all that jump at the chance to grind your old rusty axe and blame the brakes. You're better than that. | ||
| Trojan |
The Buell/EBR version are race proven performance enhancing full floating. The Braking discs were NOT show discs but were used and tested through a season in GP racing (and were fited to a Ghezzi & Brian in US Twins racing too I believe). The reason they didn't continue to use them had nothing to do with weight or torque, but because they simply did not work (i.e stop the bike) as well as the brakes they replaced. They also had a tendency to stand the bike and understeer up while braking hard into a turn (which we found the ZTL also did). You may not notice this on the road but it is apparent on track. The Brembo/Nissin setups are race proven in WSb AND MotoGP, are readily available and fully developed,and we have yet to see an advanatge over them with ZTL1,2 or 3. MotoGP teams spend millions of dollars developing brakes for 250bhp GP missiles. If they thought there was any advanateg over the brakes they currently use I'm sure we would see a version by Honda or Yamaha very quickly (despite any patents). My experience is ancient now which is why I said I won't go into it. However I am not alone in finding the ZTL less effective than traditional style twin discs in racing and there are plenty of others who resorted to a similar 'fix' over the years. if the latest ZTL brake isn't being affected by heat issues why fit an updated and even bigger intake around it in the first place? please compare/contrast to the experience of the championship winning 1190RR of Harald Kitsch and the Pegasus Race Team, also the podiums and VERY respectable performance of Geoff May and Danny Eslick and the Amsoili/Hero/EBR AMA SBK team, and also the championship winning performance of the Geico/EBR AMA Sport Bike team. I am not decrying any of their successes. However many of the sucesses you refer to were not directly attributable to the ZTL front brake at all, but to overall performance,rider skill and lots of other factors. The teams had to find solutions to some of the same overheating and brake fade issues that we encountered (although I remember the AMA team having brake issues as recently as last year?). Also, with the best will in the world, we are now talking about World Superbike racing, which is another level entirely. Somebody here actually witnessed the EBR WSB bikes braking 60 metres earlier than the other WSB bikes at Aragon recently. That isn't ignorance on my part but an eye witness surely? At the end of the day it is what it is. Like many enginering solutions in mororcycling it may just be a solution to a problem that nobody else encounters or thinks important enough to try and fix, or it may turn out to be an amazing discovery that everyone will be using in ten years time. I have not used ZTL2 or on track, although I will watch with interest to see when or if an EBR outbrakes Tom Sykes | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
the naysayers will again turn silent Not that I'm a naysayer, nor wanting to split hairs, but when has this happened? I've been waiting 16 years for Buell to succeed at premier level, and I'm still waiting. With the hype that surrounded EBR's entry into WSBK, I was initially drawn into thinking EBR would be competitive somewhere in the field, which would have been great. Reality is, EBR are lucky to qualify! This I'm afraid is reminiscent of Buell of old, and we are always preached to that this is great considering Erik's seemingly one man crusade against the motorcycling giants. It's the same old story. EBR will never be a major player in WSBK or any other world premiership until they start playing the game like the others competing do. That is to get behind the effort with the right amount of money, tools, people, and bikes. Grassroots racing at this level will never succeed except in the eyes of the die hard fans who buy the dreams and visions of a hobbyist company and accept that their mere presence in such a series is good enough for them and their fan worship. Before anyone tells me this is much more serious an effort than I paint here, go take a look at Norton and their CEO Stuart Gardner's efforts to race and win. Gardner is serious about winning and not just racing. His effort by way of comparison to that of EBR's is tiny yet infinitely more prestigious just by the way Norton have gone about their race program and their racing commitment. It's time for EBR to put up or shut up when it comes to racing at this level. 16 years is too long to wait for anyone. I am reminded of a great Who song. Won't Get Fooled Again. And I won't. Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
Somebody here actually witnessed the EBR WSB bikes braking 60 metres earlier than the other WSB bikes at Aragon recently. Again we can only speculate as to WHY. For instance, personally I hate charging corners and it takes me a while to get comfortable with my entry speed because I like to carry more corner speed so I can keep my revs up and get a good drive. Others are more point and shoot. This tends to cause me to be on the brakes sooner until I'm more confident. We don't know if its the brakes, the riders, or combination of the two until the tell us. What I do know is they don't favor those who are timid about using them, not much bite at first so if your squeeze the lever you have to do it like you mean it. | ||
| Trojan |
Motorcycle racing is a conservative business, so people tend to buy and run what the winner uses. Hence Brembo have a virtual monopoly on brakes in MotoGP and WSB. Even allowing for the diffeernces between the Braking perimeter system and the Buell/EBR ZTL brakes, this idea has been around for the best part of 15 years now 12 for ZTL alone). In that time nobody else has thought about introducing a similar system or developing anything other than 'traditional brake discs setups (with the exception of Beringer and their 'double disc' each side setup). If the perimater disc system is still not as effective as 'normal' brakes in terms of braking effciency, (and the major race teams are not using it so we must assume it isn't there yet) then maybe it is time to abandon it in favour of something more traditional. EBR may even find that more prospective buyers are attracted to 'normal' Brembos than to the ZTL (which I know put some people off buying Buell in the XB days). I know that Erik Buell has firmly tied his standard to the ZTL design so may think that changing is giving up. Yet EBR have a raft of problems to solve in WSb racing, and simply using the same brakes as everyone else would immediately remove one of the variables and make development of the rest of the package easier. | ||
| Classax |
I know that Erik Buell has firmly tied his standard to the ZTL design so may think that changing is giving up. Yet EBR have a raft of problems to solve in WSb racing, and simply using the same brakes as everyone else would immediately remove one of the variables and make development of the rest of the package easier. It pains me to say it but that was a well worded thoughtful suggestion. I agree what you say makes sense, but I'm still curious to see what the ZTL can do. | ||
| Simond |
Wouldn't dropping the ZTL brakes be a homologation issue? Maybe in Evo but not in Superbike? | ||
| Trojan |
Brakes aren't a homologation item, so they are free to use any of the brakes on the approved FIM list in Superbike and EVO. It is only engine components that have to remain standard in EVO (and restricted options for twins in superbike) | ||
| Classax |
The ZTL is plenty strong, its more about their feel and longevity. If they are braking sooner instead of harder because they can't or don't trust the ZTL that's an issue. 60 meters is a LONG way. I'd be curious as to how an observer could tell. The EBR bikes don't nose dive on the brakes nearly as much as most others and there's no light. | ||
| Wymaen |
I'm not a world-class rider, so I might be way off base here, but I'm having a hard time believing that May and Yates are braking 200' earlier than everyone else. Does that sound like a huge number to anyone else? I mean, they're already going slower than other bikes, and neither of them is a land monster, so the extra stopping distance doesn't compute, especially when you recall the braking Eslick used to rock in the AMA races. | ||
| Blake |
>>> I am not decrying any of their successes. However many of the sucesses you refer to were not directly attributable to the ZTL front brake at all, but to overall performance,rider skill and lots of other factors. You say that you're "not decrying any of their successes", then immediately go on to decry their successes. LOL Certainly don't credit the brake as the main reason for prior racing success, however if it were a significant deficiency, those successes would not, could not have been realized. And likewise blaming the deficient pace of the bike to date all on the brake is just as silly. I agree that the brake probably still needs further development to reach peak performance under the toughest situations whether it be WSBK or AMA SBK. The leader's pace is no different between the two. WSBK just enjoys a much deeper field. See Ben Bostrom, Colin Edwards, and Ben Spies in WSBK and Neil Hodgson in AMA SBK. >>> At the end of the day it is what it is. Like many enginering solutions in motorcycling it may just be a solution to a problem that nobody else encounters or thinks important enough to try and fix... Uh, care to venture the time and effort invested by the major moto racing players in trying to shave mere ounces from their machine's unsprung mass? To pretend that isn't something that is important is just plain bizarre. The only major challenge is to keep the brakes from overheating. Not an insurmountable challenge by any stretch of the imagination. But a major effort to get done and produced. You note the larger intake size of the Blake's cooling air intake, but failed to realize that the new wire mesh guard (protects against large debris) represents a MAJOR hindrance to airflow. I'd not be surprised if the cooling airflow has actually been diminished. Not saying it has been, just trying to she'd light on what may be real. Did you know that radiative heat shedding increases with temperature to the fourth power? Shiny metal is a very poor radiator of heat. Sand blast and paint with high efficiency radiative black paint and it becomes an extremely efficient radiative surface. I wonder what the external finishes of the caliper and the pad backing plate and the inside of the pistons looks like? Convective heat transfer rises linearly with respect to temperature. | ||
| Trojan |
I agree that the brake probably still needs further development to reach peak performance under the toughest situations whether it be WSBK or AMA SBK. The ZTL has already had 12 years of production development (+ whatever time it took to develop prior to production). If there are no problems with overheating why fit an air scoop, and then a larger air scoop later? You don't do that just because it looks nice and have nothing else to do. The only major challenge is to keep the brakes from overheating. Not an insurmountable challenge by any stretch of the imagination. But a major effort to get done and produced. Exactly. 12 years on and still the same basic problem? Sometimes it might be better to admit that it isn't as good as the opposition and join them rather than ploughing a furrow for the sake of it surely? The leader's pace is no different between the two. The leaders pace is far faster in WSb than AMA,BSB or other domestic championships. Single lap times may be similar but over the course of a race the difference is marked (otherwise the EBr bikes would be in or around the top 5 like they were in AMA, not almost being a lap behind every race-when they finish). See Ben Bostrom, Colin Edwards, and Ben Spies in WSBK and Neil Hodgson in AMA SBK. They were exceptions and were a good few years ago. AMA racing has slipped a long way since then unfortunately. Uh, care to venture the time and effort invested by the major moto racing players in trying to shave mere ounces from their machine's unsprung mass? To pretend that isn't something that is important is just plain bizarre. of course the major bike and brake manufacturers spend huge amounts of money and time in developing ways to reduce unsprung mass. However they still want the best brakes possible, and the current state of the art Brembos are the best available option. period. The weight increase is obviously acceptable to give better and more consistent braking performance. WSB & MotoGP have minimum weight limits and manufacturers are having to add weight rather than reduce it anyway (hence Honda running steel rather than titanium exhausts for instance). If Honda/Yamaha or Brembo/Nissin thought that the ZTL solution was the correct one I am pretty sure they would have a version of it on all of their bikes by now. After 12 years of ZTL production why is it still only EBR that thinks it is a better solution? (Patent isn't an answer because they all have ways of getting around that little hurdle). In WSB EBR have enough on their plate to be competitive without having to then take time out to make a brake work that nobody else uses and offers no increase in stopping ability than the opposition. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
The question is, what does the telemetry show? I'd wager it shows they are slower into the corners. They've likely tested conventional brakes and confirmed this. But as we've been told, WSBK for EBR is a marketing exercise, which probably explains EBR's stance in staying with a slower braking system. It's all about promoting the streetbike. Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
Part of the chatter on this board is because we don't listen when team or EBR speak on subjects. Erik has stated that ZTL is not necessarily a better solution for braking, its the best solution for preserving the overall design goals of minimizing un sprung weight. That said I believe based on what the team has stated that its electronics, specifically engine management that is the biggest hurdle. We've seen with an aggressive rider and similar power the ZTL EBR can hold its own or even embarrass a dual disc set up. I don't think we've seen the best effort from the EBR's yet. They actually seem to be loosing ground, not against the field but against their initial setups engine wise. I hope they figure it out sooner rather than later. | ||
| Trojan |
Erik has stated that ZTL is not necessarily a better solution for braking, its the best solution for preserving the overall design goals of minimizing un sprung weight. That may be absolutely true. However.....What is the prime objective of a front brake? To stop the bike when required without undue drama. If it saves a little unsprung weight then all good, but that is not the main objective. If you were to weigh a set of modern monobloc WSB spec brembo calipers I think you would be in for a shock when it comes to actual weight saving of the ZTL, and lightweight discs these days are also lighter than they were 12 years ago when ZTL was devised. Add the fact that the ZTL then puts extra mass towards the wheel rim (which has much more affect on handling than weight at the hub) and the advantages in unsprung weight are lessened again. personally, if I wanted to stop at the end of Aragons 200mph straight for 22 laps I'd like to know that I have best brakes available on the planet, regardless of if they weigh a few grammes more. Lastly, I'd like to know if EBR have to add ballast to the race bikes in order to reach the minimum WSb race weight? If they do, then a lighter brake setup is of littel advantage when you have to add a coule of pounds of lead to your bike (even if that is sprung rather than unsprung weight). | ||
| Hughlysses |
Great interview with Geoff May just posted: http://www.crash.net/wsbk/interview/204134/1/geoff -may-erik-buell-racing-qa.html | ||
| Reepicheep |
Traditional braking systems are only theoretically as good as ZTL if you don't need your front tire to be in contact with the road when you brake. (Message edited by reepicheep on May 08, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
Traditional braking systems are only theoretically as good as ZTL if you don't need your front tire to be in contact with the road when you brake. ??????????? Geoff may seems to think that Europe has only just hit a recession? He should have been here 4 years ago! | ||
| Classax |
What is the prime objective of a front brake? To stop the bike when required without undue drama. The objective of the brakes on a race machine is to repeatedly and consistently SLOW, not stop, the bike in order to set entry speed, and in the case of trail braking tighten ones line, by transforming rotational energy into heat by means of friction induced by hydraulic clapping pressure applied via a metal piston and friction pad applied on the spinning brake rotor. The ZTL gets hot, hotter than what some pads and fluid materials of today are able to cope with on a regular basis. One could argue it is better at this than other setups, I would argue its too good at it, resulting in premature fade. If you were to weigh a set of modern monobloc WSB spec brembo calipers I think you would be in for a shock when it comes to actual weight saving of the ZTL, and lightweight discs these days are also lighter than they were 12 years ago when ZTL was devised. Its been demonstrated on this board even in this thread that the ZTL2 wheel and rotor combination and hardware is slightly lighter than a set of Dynamag front 17" wheels without the rotors. The 8pot caliper and hardware also proved to be slightly lighter than a pair of Brembo monoblocks from a Panigale R which was basically a wash. If the wheels are lighter and the calibers are lighter unless you can make a set of rotors out of a material lighter than air, the ZTL is still the lightest option available. Let' not argue the facts, they aren't going to change. We can argue the applications, which as stated earlier, ZTL generates more or dissipates less heat depending on how you choose to look at it, than conventional twin disc setups and by extension more than what current fluids and pad materials are used to dealing with. This in turn had lead to fade which now appears less of an issue but is harder on the rotors and pads. Are they still having issues with fade at the WSb level. That's a very good question? the ZTL then puts extra mass towards the wheel rim (which has much more affect on handling than weight at the hub) and the advantages in unsprung weight are lessened again. True but the advantages are not really lost. What happens is you get a more efficient set up with the same feel as what we are used to. Ride a 400 or 250, their wheels are in the same weight category as a ZTL wheel and you will see how twitchy those bikes feel. Obviously tire profile and width come in to play but you get the general idea. The arguments that all that is not worth effort to run ZTL in the design or that the ZTL may not be consistent enough to race at the WSb level may or may not hold water, depending on who you ask. | ||
| Reepicheep |
A brake only decelerates a vehicle when the entire system is in contact with a ground. If a braking system, considered as a whole, has less unsprung mass, it can more effectively remain in contact with the surface that is the only path to slow the vehicle down (short of fitting a turbine and thrust reversers). You are hung up on cooling. We get it. That is important is an issue that has to be sorted. But in a real world braking system, it is also critical that the front tire remain in contact with the ground. The ZTL system has more obstacles to overcome with regards to cooling. It has less obstacles to overcome with regards to unsprung mass. Which is better? We don't know yet. The traditional setup has been tuned by lots f parties over 4 decades. ZTL is relatively new and only being pursued by one manufacturer at the moment. The old perimiter rotors you either ignorantly or misleadingly trot out whenever we have this discussion are irelevant. The key to the ZTL system is the path the braking forces travel, and the resulting mass reduction opportunities. Any "bolt on" perimeter rotor that does not include a new wheel has nothing to do with ZTL. |
