| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Very cool story, Harry. It would damn sure be cool if EBR suddenly found 15 MPH because of some similar goof. | ||
| 46champ |
Good story. Professional: we have self appointed ones in aviation they go by the name guru. You can usually find some grievous error in their work after they have finished. | ||
| Stevel |
From what we have observed, the only changes made to the bike was on the bike itself, IE suspension and a little bit on the exhaust. So, why not the engine? Everybody knows they are down on power and it breaks, so why not engine changes? I'm going to make a wild ass guess ............ they don't have any parts! They most likely have a production problem with competition from the assembly line and they have had no time to develop GOOD parts. I suspect this is a lot more than a team problem. | ||
| Snowscum |
http://youtu.be/_hlenn-V4rI?t=29m3s May's bike complete melt down on the right side of the screen. (Message edited by snowscum on May 03, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
What MFGs generally do is homologate their race spec/tolerance parts. Actually I think you're wrong there. The manufacturer must homologate the entire machine to make it eleigible for either Superbike or EVo class. Once that is done there are various options open depending which class they choose. If they go to the EVo class then they CANNOT change much in the engine even if they have 'corsa' or race parts in their catalogue (unless they were fitted to the original homologated machine. Evo engine restrictions are very tightly controlled and almost every category of engine componenent says 'No modification allowed' under EVO rules. You can read them all here if you are so inclined : http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/2014_SB K_SS_SST_REGULATIONS_10.04.2014.pdf As far as chassis/suspension/brakes go the EVO class have the same free choice of components from the approved FIM list that they and the factory SBk entries can all use (They do not have to be supplied or homologated by the manufacturer in any way-the team has a free choice from the list). That list is here: http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/DORNA_- _FIM_Approved_List_Complete_(General_Release)_2014-02-28.pdf So, if you take the time to read through the regs then entering as an EVO class entry this year would have been much less painful for EBR and would have readied them for 2015 regs with a less stressful/less expensive learning year. As a full factory entry they are (I say again) wasting energy developing parts that will be illegal next year. Yes EV class entries get less engines, but those engines are far less tuned thean full SBK motors so should last the season. Even then they only have to start from pit lane if they exceed the allowance. I'll say no more on the subject  | ||
| Reepicheep |
So imagine if they had entered under Evo, and we were not only looking to find the extra speed in the straights, but had to do so without modifying the engine. | ||
| Hughlysses |
From what we have observed, the only changes made to the bike was on the bike itself, IE suspension and a little bit on the exhaust. So, why not the engine? Everybody knows they are down on power and it breaks, so why not engine changes? I'm going to make a wild ass guess ............ they don't have any parts! They most likely have a production problem with competition from the assembly line and they have had no time to develop GOOD parts. I suspect this is a lot more than a team problem. Well, we know they didn't get the green light to go WSBK racing until last December, and the team didn't actually get bikes in hand until 27 December: http://www.sportrider.com/sportbike-news/ebr-world -superbike-debut-to-slow-start EBR must have had a very good idea of what changes to the engine would be required to make this bike competitive in WSBK well before December. I'm guessing that once they got the green light, someone immediately went to work doing engine testing while the WSBK teams have been making do with basically stock engines while they've been waiting on the new bits to arrive. If that's true, we should see the EBR bikes make a quantum leap in performance in an upcoming race. I'm betting that most if not all of the changes they develop will be incorporated in the 2015 model production 1190RX so that they'll be legal under the EVO rules next year. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Exactly Hugh. | ||
| Trojan |
I'm betting that most if not all of the changes they develop will be incorporated in the 2015 model production 1190RX so that they'll be legal under the EVO rules next year. And if not? Meanwhile they/we endure the sad spectacle of them floundering around seemingly aimlessly at the back of the field? Surely you develop the right parts first then go racing? They could have been at or near the front of the Evo pack using a pretty stock/Superstock motor (which people here have already said is faster than their top speeds at PI) and some bolt on SBK spec chasis parts. EBR could still develop and test improved performance parts for next years bike which would of course they could then homologate for 2015 Superbike, so I still think they have nothing to gain by racing as a factory effort and should have gone EVo this year. However they didn't, so that is the hend of that. We'll just have to hope that whatever plans they have come to fruition sooner rather than later for the sake of the team and the fans (and I do include myself in the latter group) | ||
| Hughlysses |
I suppose it's possible the Hero directed EBR's strategy to a large extent. E.G.- we will give you money to start a Superbike team provided you start running ASAP. We have no interest in funding a year of pure R&D with no publicity benefit and then funding your race team in 2015. I would think that if in the next few races EBR suddenly starts performing MUCH better, "all will be forgiven" as far as the fans. If that's true, then it seems this is a better strategy than "wait 'til next year". | ||
| Crush63 |
Quick question.. EBR ran the 1190RS in AMA superbike for two full seasons 2012/2013. During that time were any race specific engine parts developed (cams, improved cylinder head, etc)? If not why? If so were they incorporated into the 1190RX or is the engine in the RX a major redesign not compatible with RS engine development? As a longtime Buell/EBR fan it's been frustrating watching the team fail so badly on the world stage. 2012 was such a fantastic year in the AMA for EBR with both Geoff and Danny running top 5 almost every race. In 2013 the loss of Danny and new spec tires seemed to just wipe out the teams momentum with Geoff running as much as 2.5 seconds per lap slower at multiple venues then he was in 2012 and fighting for 8th instead of a podium. This year they are so far back I don't see how they can be competitive with even the EVO bikes unless there is some major engine development soon | ||
| 2kx1 |
I do remember late last season Geoff stating that EBR did not have the time to develop race parts as everyone was busy getting ready for production. Hopefully there will be some improvement in the next race, although I do expect some faltering as the power goes up and begins to overwhelm tires. It is not going to be easy. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Surely you develop the right parts first then go racing?" You don't know what the "right parts" are unless you are racing. You have said that EBR should have run in the EVO class. That would have been foolish in that development of the "right parts" is severely restricted. While I hoped to see better results at this point, I was not foolish enough to believe any new bike and rider combination would be a winner right out of the box. While you are critical of EBR's tactics and results your idea of running in EVO would have limited development and future success. Even if EBR doesn't get a WSB top ten this season, racing will give better results in the future. There will be more loses but, "You can't win if you don't play." G | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Taking a look at the rules, what can EBR change to increase power (reliably). Crank assembly, conrods, pistons/rings, camshaft, gas flow. I don't see where the power needed is going to come from without a complete redesign - or new engine. This is the reality of what EBR face for the season. Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
>>> I don't see where the power needed is going to come from without a complete redesign - or new engine. You don't see? Well then... Maybe Vladimir Putin can help. | ||
| 2kx1 |
Since Eslick is out of BSB does anyone think EBR could use a third rider? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You don't see? Well then... Maybe Vladimir Putin can help. How ironic Vlad and I having juxtaposed positions in our professions and non professional interests. I never knew. I wonder if he's as good a mechanic as I am a politician Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
I hope EBR can pick up Eslick, as it appears to be important to them to have an American on the bike. He's always been good for a good 2 seconds over May on the same set up. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Eslick won't go back unless EBR/Hero can pony up a good amount of cash. He bailed on EBR for Jordan because of money. What makes you think he won't do it again? Not only that, Eslick will still be riding in Daytona Sportbike for Triumph. I would also like to know how Hayden managed to pull out an 8th in WSBK at Laguna on an AMA bike. I look at that and the situation that EBR is in right now with the RX and I scratch my head. | ||
| Trojan |
While you are critical of EBR's tactics and results your idea of running in EVO would have limited development and future success. The future of World Superbike IS EVO, which is entirely my point. If they develop parts to compete with the factorybikes this season they won't be able to use them next year as the rules will force everyone to run under the EVO rules. I think that some teams (not necessarily EBR) got caught out by the EVO rules and maybe thought that it was some kind of 'second division' series rather like CRT in MotoGP, rather than a true transitional class that will lead to a new rule structure next year. Whether because of pride, sponsor/manufacturer pressure, arrogance or just plain desire to be first over the line there are team there now that didn't look at the EVO class to try and get a head start for next year. MV, Suzuki, Aprilia and EBR all could have run EVO bikes this year but chose not too. Conversely Ducati, Kawasaki and Bimota have run EVO bikes in order to gather data for next year, and you can be sure they will amongst the leaders under the new rules. The same thing happened when BSb introduced the Evo class before adopting the rules across the board. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The future of World Superbike IS EVO, which is entirely my point. If they develop parts to compete with the factory bikes this season they won't be able to use them next year as the rules will force everyone to run under the EVO rules. Matt- If they develop parts this year that are incorporated into the production 2015 1190RX (or another new model) they'll be able to use them next year, correct? | ||
| Trojan |
Maybe.. But only if the re-homologate the bike again I think(I'm not sure how long the basic homologation lasts or if they have to do it again if they change parts). The problem there is that they basically write off this year, with all the associated poor press, lack of TV coverage and trying to keep a major sponsor happy. Racing at WSB level is a very expensive and public way of testing new parts. They could of course develop the parts separately from WSb and still fit them to next years bike. | ||
| M2typhoon |
So Trojan, The possibility of having raving nasty American made V-twin Superbike is on the horizon? The RX is not bad but if they're testing future factory parts to be implemented in the future road bikes, I guess it will be a win-win for everyone but, they need they're faces rubbed in a bit of poo to do so. | ||
| Trojan |
I guess it will be a win-win for everyone but, they need they're faces rubbed in a bit of poo to do so. I think that there are much less potentially publicly humiliating ways to do it though. Hopefully their pain this year will benefit them next year  IF (and it is always a big IF) the bean counters and sponsors still think they want to sponsor the team next year of course. Sponsors and financial backers can be very quick to change their minds if they don't think they are getting the exposure they paid for. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Geoff May mentioned on Facebook prior to the last WSBK race that they had a new front brake scoop on their RX's. I just stumbled on this photo on the FB page for BestemUSA: 
Very interesting. You can also clearly see the WSBK-spec fork that's been added as well. | ||
| Neutrum |
     ztl3? | ||
| M2typhoon |
Hmmmm.. If I was guessing, that looks just like a reluctor ring for ABS on the front wheel. | ||
| Reepicheep |
What beautiful parts! | ||
| Hughlysses |
ztl3? Geoff mentioned they had a new front caliper in his FB post last week. | ||
| Neutrum |
the rear sprocket is very small compared to other bikes. they must change the brake-system. i was in aragon as a spectator sitting at the end of the long straight right where the speed-trap was. all the other bikes were on the brakes later, the ebr approx 60 meters before that point. that's why topspeed is so low. |
