| Author | Message | ||
     Classax |
I love you Mat but its always hard to tell if you are truly too obtuse to catch my point or you understand it and you doggedly want to make another. I think you've heard anyone familiar with the EBR/Hero effort say that winning is not in the cards for this year and this season is about learning and development. Buy an HP4 or Panigale R and dump another $4-6K on the motors for pistons,rods,rod bushings, oil pumps, radiators, cams, and other misc parts from their respective Corsa catalogs and you will be at their EVO engine spec. Another $4k on chassis tuning bits and brakes. 4k on wheels and now you're on an EVO spec Panigale. Everyone changes suspension and adds electronics and bigger fuel tanks and exhaust so those are a wash across the grid. It's not surprising at all the high amount of race only parts on the EVO bikes, they're pretty much the norm. It is surprisingly interested that EBR has stated they "want to see how far we can get with our stock bikes" and the amount of showroom equipment actually on the EBR race bikes. You say EBR ought to develop race parts PDQ. Where exactly would you like them to develop said parts? In the lab on a dyno or on the track in competition? Whether you think they have defiled WSb by turning such a 'prestigious championship' into a development effort is immaterial because the guys writing the checks have chosen the latter. It would seem some of you are at times incapable of appreciating the beauty of a sun rise because in your myopic estimation its not the best quality of light for your own narrow purposes but hey to each their own. | ||
| Firstbuell |
hey Matt & Rocket & Classax: I'm NOT entering your ongoing chatter - rather, I'm inquiring about something I've read here - twice - that's news to me what's the EBR source text for this novel idea?: ".....EBR has stated they "want to see how far we can get with our stock bikes" and the amount of showroom equipment actually on the EBR race bikes......" | ||
| Classax |
The JUNE issue of Motorcyclists magazine,has the printed version of Erik's comments on the race effort and the stock content came from conversations with various people close to the team. The exact quote in the article is" racing remains important to Erik Buell, but is hardly his only or even his primary focus-despite the company name. "Erik Buell Racing -EBR- was the only way I could use my name, since i couldn't use Buell anymore. Racing is our heritage, and an incrediably important part of my life, but we're obviously not just a racing company... Do we want to win? Of course, but that's not possible. Feilding a winning team is crazy expensive. that's not why we're there. We're doing it because we have a lot to learn. I don't want to turn my motorcycle into a half-million dollar prototyoe. I want to see how close I can get with a motorcycle tha's really close to what we sell.""~Erik Buell-Motorcycist Magazine June 2014. That comment prompted me to ask some knowledgeable people about what the race only/corsa catalog, custom to showroom content was. I was surprised by the amount of things I always naturally assume get changed to race spec on race bike that are already built to race spec as part of the stock EBR and remain in the race bikes. Its a long list when you really stop to think about it. May I ask why? (Message edited by Classax on April 24, 2014) (Message edited by Classax on April 24, 2014) | ||
| Firstbuell |
unrelated to above - here's a UK article on BSB costs: http://www.superbike.co.uk/race-news/gbmoto-bsb-te am-feature-the-real-cost-of-racing/ | ||
| Firstbuell |
well, I read damn near everything there is on many sites daily & hadn't caught the drift of EBR SBKs being ultra-stock.... thx for response | ||
| Classax |
"well, I read damn near everything there is on many sites daily & hadn't caught the drift of EBR SBKs being ultra-stock.... " So had I, not to say that the EBR WSb doesn't have its fair share of ultra trick race specific kit, but the list of things that aren't was way longer than I normally would have expected. I think EBR would phrase it more like, "stock EBR's are world class SBK's." | ||
| Bads1 |
Pretty much all of the Liter bikes these day are pretty Equal dollar for Dollar pound for pound. It takes Pro's to pick them apart and even then thats one pro's opinion and another could test the bikes and come to a different conclusion. | ||
| Jaimec |
As expected, the WSBK race (and Superpole) showed up today on my DVR. It always seems to show up at the last minute. Superpole is at 10:00 Saturday night. Race 1 is at 6:00 AM Sunday morning, with Race 2 about an hour later. All times Eastern Daylight Time. | ||
| Trojan |
".....EBR has stated they "want to see how far we can get with our stock bikes" and the amount of showroom equipment actually on the EBR race bikes......" if that is a real quote from a real company spokesperson then I must say it is the wierdest thing I have ever heard from a race team, and completely nuts in my opinion. I suspect though that it is just an excuse for poor on track performance. If you want to race a stock bike then race in Superstock, so that everyone watching knows that is what it is. if you decide to race in WSb with a stock bike then the company might get a warm feeling and slap each other on the back for their performances, while everyone watching just sees a well supported factory team getting its arse kicked every week. Somebody please tell me how that is going to help EBR at all trying to make its way against the other big guns in the sportsbike world? Anyone can finish (nearly) last in a WSB race with a stock bike, it is nothing to write home about. Even I could do that if I could afford the entries. If they were winning with a stock bike (which is not going to happen) then that would be worth shouting about. Until then they need to develop some trick race parts pretty quickly! | ||
| Trojan |
Assen FP1: 1 65 J. REA GBR PATA Honda World Superbike Honda CBR1000RR 1'36.549 16 169,356 287,8 2 76 L. BAZ FRA Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'36.622 0.073 0.073 18 169,229 287,0 3 34 D. GIUGLIANO ITA Ducati Superbike Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'36.804 0.255 0.182 14 168,910 285,5 4 1 T. SYKES GBR Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'36.952 0.403 0.148 17 168,653 289,4 5 58 E. LAVERTY IRL Voltcom Crescent Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R1000 1'37.031 0.482 0.079 15 168,515 285,5 6 22 A. LOWES GBR Voltcom Crescent Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R1000 1'37.074 0.525 0.043 17 168,441 284,8 7 33 M. MELANDRI ITA Aprilia Racing Team Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'37.209 0.660 0.135 17 168,207 290,1 8 50 S. GUINTOLI FRA Aprilia Racing Team Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'37.221 0.672 0.012 15 168,186 291,7 9 59 N. CANEPA ITA Althea Racing Ducati 1199 Panigale R EVO 1'37.584 1.035 0.363 16 167,560 276,0 10 91 L. HASLAM GBR PATA Honda World Superbike Honda CBR1000RR 1'37.630 1.081 0.046 16 167,481 285,5 11 7 C. DAVIES GBR Ducati Superbike Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'37.646 1.097 0.016 16 167,454 284,0 12 2 C. IDDON GBR Team Bimota Alstare Bimota BB3 EVO 1'38.211 1.662 0.565 16 166,491 276,0 13 86 A. BADOVINI ITA Team Bimota Alstare Bimota BB3 EVO 1'38.355 1.806 0.144 17 166,247 276,0 14 44 D. SALOM ESP Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'38.361 1.812 0.006 16 166,237 276,0 15 19 L. CAMIER GBR BMW Motorrad Italia SBK BMW S1000 RR EVO 1'38.469 1.920 0.108 19 166,054 275,3 16 24 T. ELIAS ESP Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'38.533 1.984 0.064 19 165,946 288,6 17 9 F. FORET FRA MAHI Racing Team India Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'38.544 1.995 0.011 19 165,928 273,9 18 84 M. FABRIZIO ITA IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'38.925 2.376 0.381 16 165,289 272,5 19 11 J. GUARNONI FRA MRS Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'39.021 2.472 0.096 16 165,129 199,0 20 71 C. CORTI ITA MV Agusta RC-Yakhnich M. MV Agusta F4 RR 1'39.057 2.508 0.036 16 165,069 274,6 21 23 L. SCASSA ITA Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'39.128 2.579 0.071 15 164,950 271,1 22 77 K. BOS NED Winteb LiquidRubber Racing T. Honda CBR1000RR EVO 1'39.367 2.818 0.239 17 164,554 265,8 23 32 S. MORAIS RSA IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'39.717 3.168 0.350 16 163,976 268,4 24 10 I. TOTH HUN BMW Team Toth BMW S1000 RR 1'40.924 4.375 1.207 13 162,015 282,5 25 21 A. ANDREOZZI ITA Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'41.675 5.126 0.751 17 160,818 271,8 26 20 A. YATES USA Team Hero EBR EBR 1190 RX 1'43.385 6.836 1.710 17 158,158 257,5 27 56 P. SEBESTYEN HUN BMW Team Toth BMW S1000 RR EVO 1'43.609 7.060 0.224 17 157,816 269,8 28 99 G. MAY USA Team Hero EBR EBR 1190 RX 1'43.723 7.174 0.114 14 157,643 261,9 | ||
| Classax |
if that is a real quote from a real company spokesperson then I must say it is the wierdest thing I have ever heard from a race team, and completely nuts in my opinion. I suspect though that it is just an excuse for poor on track performance. You can read the article for yourself I sited the source of both the verbal and printed material from ERIK BUELL himself. Fortunately our opinions and opines on a lot of things are meaningless. If you want to race a stock bike then race in Superstock, so that everyone watching knows that is what it is. if you decide to race in WSb with a stock bike then the company might get a warm feeling and slap each other on the back for their performances, while everyone watching just sees a well supported factory team getting its arse kicked every week. It's not a stock bike none of them are, but there is a lot of sales floor content, more so than nearly any other bike on the grid.For the record, if the part is offered as a factory option(Corsa Catalog)part and homologated as such, it can be installed and still be considered "stock" for the purposes of EVO and Superstock regulations. I think their stated goal is to produce a World Class Superbike for sale, to prove it they have taken it to WSb. I don't think their interested in accolades right now, they're interested in testing what they produce at the highest levels and learning how to compete at that level. Seeking race wins may well be priority 1 in phase 2 but its like priority 8 or 9 in here phase 1. Somebody please tell me how that is going to help EBR at all trying to make its way against the other big guns in the sportsbike world? If you trot out a machine chock full of the standard showroom kit and can run within 104% of the best of the best, it says to the world that you make bikes that are near race ready as opposed to say a Panigale S or RSV4 Factory that will need a trip to the loan officer and everything in the Corsa Catalog to reach the same level of prep. To be clear the EBR WSb is not stock or superstock, but it has a lot of showroom kit normally swapped out for race spec parts by other mfg's, which demonstrates the capability of that showroom kit. Anyone can finish (nearly) last in a WSB race with a stock bike, it is nothing to write home about. Even I could do that if I could afford the entries. We all respect one another here, Particularly you Mat, you're a race series champion, please don't wreck your years of credibility and useful contributions with statements we all know are patently not true. You know as well as I that even the EVO machines are brimming with OEM race catalog parts that don't make it into the showrooms ever. I'd love to see anyone race(try to at least) the stock pegs on a Panigale, or even the showroom kit wheels on any of those bikes. How about showroom radiators. The list goes on. There are truly talented fast racers with the cash who aren't quick enough to do 105% of the WSb grid on Tom Sykes bike let alone one without all the cool Attack racing pistons, rings, radiators ect... You might have been that fast once, may be you still are. I know I'm not and likely will never be. I'm not just Anyone though, I'm a Someone, so I guess technically your statement has some tinge of validity but only in that regard. If they were winning with a stock bike (which is not going to happen) then that would be worth shouting about. Until then they need to develop some trick race parts pretty quickly! Its not a stock bike, a bike with a high proportion of showroom kit making the grid in Wsb from a company that didn't exist 4 years ago, had less than 100 employees 12 months ago, no production line 6 months ago securing the funding to put TWO bikes and a team on the grid every round on a machine that flies in the face on conventional technological approaches with riders who must learn the tracks in an effort to demonstrate that the stuff you can buy is good enough to race is in my not so humble opinion plenty to shout about. I agree if they want to win they are going to have to develop some pretty trick race parts that hopefully become showroom kit also. That development could happen in a lab or on the track. Its more fun for everyone when it happens on the track. Classax signing off... time to go ride an RX at the track. | ||
| Trojan |
I think their stated goal is to produce a World Class Superbike for sale, to prove it they have taken it to WSb. And failed to get anywhere near the other Superbikes, which makes their bike look less competitive than everyone else. How or why is that a good idea in anyones view? We all respect one another here, Particularly you Mat, you're a race series champion, please don't wreck your years of credibility and useful contributions with statements we all know are patently not true. I stand by what i said. You CANNOT go to WSb, excuse poor performance by saying that you are trying to race a bike with as many stock components as possible, and then expect to be treated seriously by fans or racers in the series. WSB is NOT for showroom bikes, we all know that and I'm pretty sure the guys running the EBR team are very much aware of that fact. Running a bike with stock components that is miles off the pace is just wasting everyone's time and money, and making EBr look silly to be honest. We may all know what their long term aims are etc, but anyone switching on the TV sees (or rather doesn't see because they get zero coverage) two factory bikes trailing around hopelessly at the back. Do you think that the aveage viewer is interested in how many stock parts are on the bike? Its not a stock bike, a bike with a high proportion of showroom kit making the grid in Wsb from a company that didn't exist 4 years ago, had less than 100 employees 12 months ago, no production line 6 months ago securing the funding to put TWO bikes and a team on the grid every round on a machine that flies in the face on conventional technological approaches with riders who must learn the tracks in an effort to demonstrate that the stuff you can buy is good enough to race is in my not so humble opinion plenty to shout about. I agree they have done very well just to get on the grid. How many commentators have even mentioned anything in the above statement though? None. To be honest nobody outside the Buell fanbase really cares either. They want to see a competitive race bike and saying it is a small factory, stock parts, new bike etc etc is just excuses to them. Bimota probably has less employees and less funding the EBR right now. MV is a new bike this year (actually it is almost a new bike at every round so far- such is the amount of development going into it) and some of the EVO teams can only dream of the support level EBR has from Hero. No excuses at WSB level unfortunately. You either do well or you don't  At the moment neither EBr is within the 107% cutoff time for qualification. If it rains tomorrow as forecast they could be going home without making the grid, which would be sad. | ||
| Trojan |
Assen FP2 times: 1 34 D. GIUGLIANO ITA Ducati Superbike Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'36.804 1'35.396 1'35.396 27 2 65 J. REA GBR PATA Honda World Superbike Honda CBR1000RR 1'36.549 1'35.880 1'35.880 0.484 35 3 1 T. SYKES GBR Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'36.952 1'36.146 1'36.146 0.750 33 4 22 A. LOWES GBR Voltcom Crescent Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R1000 1'37.074 1'36.219 1'36.219 0.823 33 5 7 C. DAVIES GBR Ducati Superbike Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'37.646 1'36.417 1'36.417 1.021 30 6 76 L. BAZ FRA Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'36.622 1'36.449 1'36.449 1.053 31 7 58 E. LAVERTY IRL Voltcom Crescent Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R1000 1'37.031 1'36.467 1'36.467 1.071 32 8 50 S. GUINTOLI FRA Aprilia Racing Team Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'37.221 1'36.670 1'36.670 1.274 32 9 33 M.MELANDRI ITA Aprilia Racing Team Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'37.209 1'36.697 1'36.697 1.301 33 10 91 L. HASLAM GBR PATA Honda World Superbike Honda CBR1000RR 1'37.630 1'36.709 1'36.709 1.313 32 11 59 N. CANEPA ITA Althea Racing Ducati 1199 Panigale R EVO 1'37.584 1'37.042 1'37.042 1.646 31 12 19 L. CAMIER GBR BMW Motorrad Italia SBK BMW S1000 RR EVO 1'38.469 1'37.139 1'37.139 1.743 38 13 24 T. ELIAS ESP Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'38.533 1'37.240 1'37.240 1.844 36 14 86 A. BADOVINI ITA Team Bimota Alstare Bimota BB3 EVO 1'38.355 1'37.436 1'37.436 2.040 32 15 32 S. MORAIS RSA IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'39.717 1'37.638 1'37.638 2.242 33 16 2 C. IDDON GBR Team Bimota Alstare Bimota BB3 EVO 1'38.211 1'37.876 1'37.876 2.480 31 17 9 F. FORET FRA MAHI Racing Team India Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'38.544 1'38.113 1'38.113 2.717 36 18 71 C. CORTI ITA MV Agusta RC-Yakhnich M. MV Agusta F4 RR 1'39.057 1'38.122 1'38.122 2.726 32 19 44 D. SALOM ESP Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'38.361 1'38.128 1'38.128 2.732 35 20 11 J. GUARNONI FRA MRS Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'39.021 1'38.264 1'38.264 2.868 35 21 23 L. SCASSA ITA Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'39.128 1'38.296 1'38.296 2.900 32 22 84 M.FABRIZIO ITA IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'38.925 1'38.550 1'38.550 3.154 32 23 77 K. BOS NED Winteb LiquidRubber Racing T. Honda CBR1000RR EVO 1'39.367 1'39.411 1'39.367 3.971 33 24 21 A. ANDREOZZI ITA Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'41.675 1'39.594 1'39.594 4.198 34 25 10 I. TOTH HUN BMW Team Toth BMW S1000 RR 1'40.924 1'40.189 1'40.189 4.793 27 26 20 A. YATES USA Team Hero EBR EBR 1190 RX 1'43.385 1'41.209 1'41.209 5.813 32 27 99 G.MAY USA Team Hero EBR EBR 1190 RX 1'43.723 1'42.180 1'42.180 6.784 32 28 56 P. SEBESTYEN HUN BMW Team Toth BMW S1000 RR EVO 1'43.609 1'42.863 1'42.863 7.467 29 25/04/ Yates is now within the 107% qualifying time but May is still just outside. If it rains tomorrow he could be out  | ||
| Hughlysses |
Posted to Team Hero/EBR's Facebook page 3 hours ago:
Matt- are the times you posted from the afternoon session, or from the morning session? | ||
| Trojan |
latest times I have posted are from the afternoon session, so that is it for today. if it rains tomorrow as forecast, they expect the top twenty to stay as it is for Superpole, which means Geoff May will have the difficult task of trying and improve his time in poor conditions by a couple of tenths at least in order to qualify at all (unless the organisers give them special permission to race even though outside the 107% time cutoff, which has happened before I believe). Yates improved by 2.1 seconds for the afternoon session and May by 1.6, although they are both coming from a long way back to start with. As a comparison, the top guys chopped around a second of their times compared to this morning as a result of better conditions, so not knowing the track is costing the EBR riders at least a second a lap. Both riders having to learn every track from scratch is a problem of the teams own making unfortunately, and can't be sorted by setup | ||
| Jaimec |
Hugh, He reported the times for both FP1 & FP2 in two separate postings. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Oops; I didn't look far enough up the thread. Thanks to both of you. | ||
| Trojan |
Jeez, I've just seen the Supersport 600 times! fastest 600 was in the 1'38" region and to put it in context Aaron Yates time would put him be 22nd on the 600 grid (2 secnds behind the guy in 21st!). The benefit of a fast and flowing track methinks  | ||
| Vagelis46 |
This is the 3rd round , and the fastest EBR is : 5.8s slower than the fastest SBKs 4s slower than the fastest EVO SBKs 2sec slower that the fastest SUPERSTOCK 1000 This is no good, in any way you look at it ..... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Post-practice update from Team Hero/EBR: http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b1964295d7f155 fa8c439a200&id=5642042624 May comments imply he's still having issues recovering from his injury; Aaron sounds frustrated with their lack of improvement. Interesting photo:  Any idea what's up with the big-a** conventionally mounted muffler? Extra noise restrictions at Assen or an attempt to find more power within normal noise restrictions? | ||
| Jscott |
It'd be interesting to see what an experienced WSBK racer could do around these tracks. Maybe they could source one to ride around on a post race test one day. How much of it is "lack of track knowledge" or are they in fact dragging anchors around the track. Either way they need to start getting this sorted out. (Message edited by Jscott on April 25, 2014) | ||
| Firstbuell |
Carlos Crasher [eye keed] on a Buell? I had no idea mebbe you meant Jeremy McWilliams? anyhoo, it's, "yes", to both of your suppositions..... | ||
| Jscott |
Actually it was Alex Barros. Wishful thinking I guess with my rusty memory banks. Either way a WSBK regular would be the quickest indicator as to how it is stacking up to the rest of the competition. | ||
| Firstbuell |
man, talk about a mini-threadjack..... Jscott, I'm NOT arguing - rather, very curious Barros? details/pix/etc.? | ||
| Jscott |
Don't really know the details, but it was actually listed on on of the early iterations of the EBR site. Here is a story that basically says the same thing… http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2010/03/buell-1190r r-unveiled.html and here… http://www.autoevolution.com/news/erik-buell-racing-unveils-2010-1190rr-17440.html (Message edited by Jscott on April 25, 2014) | ||
| Jscott |
Here is the cached EBR website from 2010… http://web.archive.org/web/20100301105311/http://w ww.erikbuellracing.com/motorcycles/1190RR/ | ||
| Firstbuell |
wow since I read those releases when they first came out, one might assume that I'm forgetful.... now, what were we discussing originally? | ||
| Jscott |
How they need to fly the team down to Haiti and bite the heads of chickens in order to get this sorted? | ||
| Hughlysses |
No comments/thoughts on the new muffler arrangement? | ||
| Office_buelly |
Any insight on why the top speed is so far off the pace? Unless my math is off the stock bike with the race bike aeros would be trapping higher then the race bike is. Have any of the 1190rx guys tried a top speed run yet to compare? Is it possible the bike would run better with the stock ecu? Does the series allow for the stock ecu in any class? Also one of the big selling feature of Erik's bikes have always been the engineering. I can't help but notice the race bikes carry an extra fuel tank (I'm guessing the frame doesn't hold enough) I'm sure this doesn't help the centralization of mass, any word if we'll see them modify the frames in future versions given the race bike the option of ditching the addon tank? |
