| Author | Message | ||
     Davegess |
Anyone who thinks that it is just poor management that has killed the AMA series needs to look closer. Road racing of any sort in the US has tremendous obstacles. Bike road racing simply takes those obstacles and doubles them. Really deep pockets and a willingness to lose a lot of money for several years MAY turn it around but it will not be easy. | ||
| Trojan |
I'm sure that Jonathan Palmer and his MSV group are aware of the problems in the US race scene, compounded by the huge distances between rounds etc and seeming lack of interest by the public. However....he has done a great job of BSB, and has done that partly because his group owns most of the tracks they race on. If he has a similar business plan for the US then I can see him buying the series and at least some of the circuits so that he has a lot more control over the direction the series takes. It would also mean that negotiating TV deals is much easier when talking to just one party instead of a group of people. Bringing the rules into line with BSB would also help, as interchange fo riders/teams would be much easier to manage/encourage. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Hank, where is Cory? Is he comin or not? | ||
| Riohondohank |
Matt, I sent PM but am not sure my PM's are going though. Send you email to w5hj1@yahoo.com if not and I will reply. | ||
| Classax |
With all due respect to how things may look from across the pond, the single biggest issue facing AMA pro is lack of credible and active promoters. The ability(or in this case lack) of the promoters to get people through the gates is what is killing the series. Look at the Petty vs Kapatrick "feud" in NASCAR, they are both popular, but largely irrelevant figures in the current racing, yet they are every where in our media. Can you say Publicity Stunt. DMG has continued to go with promoters who are more interested in other things and it shows at the gate. To turn it around smart promoting and Rossi style rider charisma is needed. We need Josh Hayes and Cameron B on every cooking show and in book reading to kids from Florida to Cali and Texas to the Dakotas, so we get them, and the sport, in the public eye. If the AMA riders got involved and did a spot against drunk driving for DOT or a cross promo for a morning show it would do wonders. The winner of the Daytona, and Indy 500 is booked on the morning shows the next day and the Tonight show that night. The winner of the Daytona 200 will be booked for public intoxication or perhaps speeding or disturbing the peace if he's lucky. To be successful in the US markets you need a phenomenal product with decent marketing or just a decent product with phenomenal marketing. DMG has utterly failed on the marketing piece and its impacting the quality of the product now. | ||
| Trojan |
Maybe Jonathan Palmer/MSV have a plan for increasing promotional activity. Motorcycle racing will never be a 'mainstearm' sport even over here and is very much a poor relation compared to football (soccer) and F1 etc. However in a country the size of the US it should be possible to run a reasonably successful motorcycle race series and still make money from it, so long as you have a decent TV deal in place. You definitely cannot do it if you are relying on fans buying tickets, becaue that wouldn't cover the fuel costs let alone everything else involved. Quality TV/Live streaming/pay per view is the answer these days it seems.....It is no good having TV coverage if the programme is rubbish and the presenters don't know what they are talking about. | ||
| Classax |
Motorcycle racing will never be a 'mainstearm' sport even over here and is very much a poor relation compared to football (soccer) and F1 etc. However in a country the size of the US it should be possible to run a reasonably successful motorcycle race series and still make money from it, so long as you have a decent TV deal in place. You definitely cannot do it if you are relying on fans buying tickets, becaue that wouldn't cover the fuel costs let alone everything else involved. 1. We Americans will race anything(bullfrogs to lawnmowers) and love it! 2 The fan base for whatever race medium be it swap buggies or falcons is HIGHLY dedicated. Its the badwagoneers that promoters must reach. Participants( former, future, or current always attend) its the casually interested new comer promoters must capture. 3. Road racing is just as popular as arena sports, the obstacle is arena sports bring the racing to you, where as road racing requires the additional commitment of travel and camping ect... it can't be attended or covered casually. 4. Back when SPEED TV actually was a motorsports channel and not the 24hr NASCAR station it became there was coverage on everything from go carts to Monster Trucks and all had good followings. CBSS has taken on some of that but you have to have both quality and quantity to attract specialized event TV coverage these days. If the Xgames can get a TV deal, the AMA has no excuses. Will racing ever be as popular as say the NFL, depends on how its marketed and whether we have a racer that somehow captures the national focus in an area AWAY from racing. Lance Armstrong without the cancer survivor thing just never would have been news no matter how much dope he took or # of times he won the Tour. Unfortunately I feel like EBR and Hero are failing a bit in this area as well. As a symbol of the phoenix of American manufacturing, innovation and business, Geoff and Aaron should be doing every show from Arsenio to What's My Car Worth. The first(ok second) EBR race bike should be donated to a charity and auctioned at Meacum. The first bike delivered to a customer should have taken place live via the internet or on youtube or whatever. the NFL displaced MLB via marketing, and NASCAR is threatening them both for the same reason, MARKETING! In short, mainstream in the US, is whatever the marketing people say it is. | ||
| Bads1 |
Tim I wouldn't say Nascar is threatening the NFL in any way. Nascar is even feeling the heat from depression..... sponsors etc. | ||
| Classax |
Bads1 take a look at the Neilson and attendance numbers for NASCAR and the NFL, they are drawing the same crowds and viewing for regular events. Exclude the Superbowl and playoffs. Indeed major sponsorship dollars are harder to get, but NASCAR is healthy. AMA is hurt in large part because of the same promoters who would rather focus on NASCAR and whether directly or indirectly they channel a lot of sponsorship dollars toward NASCAR instead of the AMA. | ||
| Court |
Take a look at the stands at the Daytona 200. You could evacuate the place with a school bus. | ||
| Firstbuell |
so true, so sad...... | ||
| Bads1 |
It doesn't just matter about attendance. Theres more people viewing NFL football then Nascar on Television. Like for instance the bar business. Way more come out to watch the games then Nascar. | ||
| Classax |
Bads1- not sure what part of the country you live in but were I live,you can find in bar watch parties for the major races being advertised on the radio. But then again one of the biggest annual events here in America's 4th largest city is a live stock show and rodeo.  | ||
| Bads1 |
In the bar business. Packers home games 78,000 every home game. Average 60,000 on away games. Each team NFL team has 16 regular season games. Nascar 33. 32 nfl teams playing every week and televised.Thats 512 regular season games. Ummm how much money does that generate when the most average 60,000 a game. Some teams sell out every game they play at home. Now I have a pretty good crowd for Nascar but not like NFL season. | ||
| Classax |
I'm not in anyway suggesting NASCAR has more fans than the NFL or that its more lucrative. I'm saying do to marketing it has made its way into the mainstream sports arena along side it. For the record if you count the various televised classes, ie trucks,GN, sprint ect, they have more like 120 events, plus televised practices and qualifying for 38 of them. They typically with exception of last year, sellout their major tracks from Friday to Sunday. 30k x 3= 90k people per those 33 major events. I detest NASCAR as a sport, but can't deny their success. All I'm getting at is you could make competitive cup stacking a major sport in the US with a charismatic enough athlete with a profound back story and the sheer force of marketing will and know how. CBSS is airing SNOW MOBILE RACING as I type this for crying out loud! DMG and AMA have no excuses. | ||
| Trojan |
The first thing you need is DECENT TV coverage of the event. if the coverage is good enough it will attract viewers. A good example is the recent coverage of the Isle of Man TT races. In the past the TV coverage of this event was awful (if at all) but the last couple of years it has been done by North One television and the viewing figures have rocketed with races shown on 3 of the UK free to view main ITV channels. The racing is the same as it has been for years, but the TV coverage is now exciting and attracting people who would never usually think of watching motorcycle racing. We all know how exciting the sport can be, but you need something more than just a few fixed cameras and some boring commentray to get people interested. I watched some coverage of last years AMA races with Scott Russell in the commentary box alongside some media muppet, and it was awful. terrible camera locations (and not enough of them) giving poor views, no slow-mo, boring talk from both commentators with little technical knowledge or interest by the sound of it. Bike racing needs to establish its own niche, not try to compete with mass market sports like NFL etc. get that right and they will come...... | ||
| Classax |
Matt I respect you a ton, but I disagree whole heartedly about the coverage last year. People who participate in the sport already care, they don't need anything more than the sport itself to be satisfied. We really want to be racing ourselves but since we can't we hope to vicariously through excellent tv coverage. But its the bandwagon, newcomers, unaware and interested but not committed fans that TV in niche sports is trying to reach. That means back stories and melodrama and unfortunately commentary that equates to the ramblings of captain obvious. Compared to what we had on SPEED, last year was great. It can get much better! Last year they committed 5 minutes of every race to covering the middle and back of the field as a part of policy. Compare that to the only at the front coverage in other sports. TV is not the issue, like I said they televise lawnmower racing, tractor pulling and even off road racing here is the States. In this niche market you need quantity as much as quality and no matter how you try to avoid it, on race day(Sunday)you're competing against GOD, NFL,NASCAR,MLB and every other form of racing in that order for eyes,ears and seats. God's got a decent lead on the NFL but they're gaining. So no you have to go big or you will be sent home. Run enough events and the TV will come. | ||
| Classax |
FYI... It looks like we will have a respectable field of 20 or so superbikes on the grid for Daytona in 2014. We'll make the best of the 10 races of this "season". | ||
| Trojan |
People who participate in the sport already care, they don't need anything more than the sport itself to be satisfied. But these people don't need to be encouraged. It is the majority of public who don't know about motorcycle racing that need good TV coverage. if you could see the vast difference between TT and BSB coverage compared to the pretty poor AMA coverage you'd see what I mean. High Definition, super slo-mo etc etc is required now, not just a few poorly sited cameras and an ex-racer pontificating on how things used to be on air. F1 a few years ago was dying, but was saved by mega TV deals, excellent coverage and huge audiences worldwide, with TV aimed and preaching to the uninitiated, not by established knowledgeable fans buying tickets to watch live. However....to have decent TV you also need more than a handful of rounds and just a few privateer teams. You need to encourage the factories back and to spend money on advertising on the TV coverage too. When DMG decided to throw their weight around and get rid of the factories they shot the series in the (already bleeding heavily) foot. | ||
| Classax |
You guys must get different coverage than us across the pond because all of my racing is in HD. CBSS is HD, BeIN HD, and Velocity is in HD as of course so is FoX Sports. So among those four we get: CBSS = AMA Velocity =BSB, TT, AMA(motocross) and Superbike Family(lol) BeIN= WSBK FOXS= MotoGP I'd say the production value of BSB as we get it here and AMA pro were similar. Both have too much commercial intervention. (I love you BeIN!) Slow mo replay, HD, overly excitable Brit giving the play by play, Ex racer commentary and of course a few on board cameras shots. CBSS even did rider and team spot lights, tech and riding 101's. The production had more cameras and was far and away better than anything SPEED ever had during their hayday. What DMG has done is continue to make it harder for the committed fans to gain access to their sport, let alone attract anyone new. When that happens the sport dies. No races west of the Mississippi alienates close to half of the fan base who would actually travel to a race. Only one race south of the Mason Dixion line (ok Barber is just south of it) alienates another quarter who would travel to the events. A two day event is cheaper on the teams but reduces fan access and makes it less worth the trip, as you still have to get their Friday night to be ready for Sat. You can't get niche TV coverage with out either a really Big/significant or frequent racing events, and you can't get either of those if you chase away the racers, sponsors and venues to the point that the committed fans who want to support you can't even if they try. My wife says I should always reserve the right to be wrong,  so I will. | ||
| Davegess |
Good TV coverage costs a ton of money and with no one willing to buy ads all the cost falls on the series promotor. It is going to take very deep pockets to rebuild this series. | ||
| Classax |
I contend based on the facts that: -CBSS already covers low margin events/sports( boxcar, snowmobile, lawnmower, and desert truck racing, world's strongest, ect.. -CBSS already had a commitment to cover 2014 and 2015 -Venues find the AMA events haven't drawn enough revenue: tickets, concessions, parking, to cover costs to operate let alone pay the artificially high franchise fee. - DMG/AMA has repeatedly been slack/arrogant/shortsighted in its negotiations with other tracks owners -Sponsors, Teams, Riders and TV are put off about the steadily declining lack of events resulting ever increasing cost per remaining event. That TV coverage is not the issue, lack of events is. MORE events equal more face time for the Sponsors, Riders and Teams. More events allows for greater cross promotion dollar effectiveness. More events equal more commercial time, which allow each spot to effectively be cheaper, which in turn opens it up to more sponsors. More events allows AMA to reduce the cost of franchise licenses to cover its own admin cost, which makes it cheaper for the tracks. More events equals greater fan exposure and participation. DMG has to find a way to: Get tracks back on the schedule, lower franchise cost, reduce team cost, and find a promoter who wants to actually build the sport. I concede all easier said than done. | ||
| Trojan |
That TV coverage is not the issue, lack of events is. Not necessarily. Quantity does not guarantee quality that's for sure. Look at the IOM TT for an example. Only a few races and only once a year. What has made it a success in recent years is TV generated sponsorhsip money, not 'bums on seats' from paying spectators. Likewise Macau GP and a few other high profile singel races (Daytone could again be one of them if they could organise it properly!). Sponsorship relies on TV exposure, not ticket buying spectators. If you can organise a decent TV package even for 5 rounds then you have money to spend on further rounds and better equipped teams etc. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation but anything would be better then what they have now. | ||
| Classax |
IOM TT is exactly the opposite situation to AMA. What makes that race successful is a chance for the criminally insane to get to run the asylum once a year LOL. Its the oldest race in motorcycling, what makes it successful was established long before the invention of TV and the race will happen every year even if there is NO TV coverage ever again. It's a big enough significant single event that what it needed to reach the masses was quality TV to expand it not sustain it. The AMA is a national series that needs multiple rounds at multiple tracks across the country to be successful. The idea that it could just be a TV sport was the first in a long list of self inflicted wounds. That means bums in seats or the tracks won't have the events at their venue. No tracks no races, no races, nothing to cover on TV, no TV no commercials, no commercials no INDIRECT Sponsors. Any sport has a tough time if only its DIRECT sponsors buy commercials. So for the AMA bums in seats, on the grass, in the parking lot, and at the concessions is crucial. (Message edited by classax on March 03, 2014) (Message edited by Classax on March 03, 2014) | ||
| Riohondohank |
"no TV no commercials, no commercials no INDIRECT Sponsors" Bingo and that is where the real money is to support both the races and the teams. | ||
| Trojan |
That means bums in seats or the tracks won't have the events at their venue. I think both F1 and MotoGP have shown that you can hold a major race at a circuit with almost no spectators present (Just look at China, Qatar, Dubai etc etc) provided you have a big enough TV audience. The TT was withering away a few years ago after it lost world championship status and had to go through a painful period of re-invention to be where it is today. Part of that re-invention was to attract major stars to the ISland by getting big sponsorhsip money involved. And that meant big TV coverage. | ||
| Jaimec |
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/american-tr iple-crown-road-racing-series/ | ||
| Trojan |
Good news if it happens. However still no mention of any money or TV coverage of the triple crown series, which is what will ultimately bring the dollars and the fans in. Big respect to Ulrich though for putting his money where his mouth is  | ||
| Stirz007 |
"Take a look at the stands at the Daytona 200. You could evacuate the place with a school bus." I agree with Court here. I propose this subgenius idea: You have a ton of bikers at Daytona during bike week. Have one or two sessions at the end of the day for a "run what you brung" event (That way you have plenty of time to clean up the carnage before next day's event). Let the 'real' bikers on the track with baggers, big dogs, choppers (no sport bikes) and have them sign mega-waivers... Mohawk helmets, leather vests, whatever.. the pure entertainment value would be awesome AND it would get the captive crowd into the stands. I'd pay money to see that.  | ||
| Firstbuell |
damn Its official - no televised Daytona 200 this year. Can you say,"Downfall of Western Civilization?" http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2014/Mar/140304noda ytona200tv.htm |
