| Author | Message | ||
     Crusty |
Let's see; it's a new bike, a new team, a new track and a new series. I don't expect them to magically jump into contention for a podium. I've personally experienced what the Elves can and will do (at least as far as customers are concerned). If they apply their skills to racing I have no doubt their performance will continually improve as the season progresses. I'll be happy to stand behind them and cheer them on; even when they're not up front. They will be up front eventually. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Good article on their practice efforts: http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/200384/1/progress-m ade-as-erik-buell-racing-debuts.html | ||
| Reepicheep |
When I do engineering, which I do pretty often, I almost always regret trying to test two things at once. It always seems to compromise both tests and both results. Unless I am in a "I have not idea how or if any of this will work and I want to see how it will break", I design a particular test to precisely and completely measure a single specific thing, and I repeat it until I am confident I have resolved that problem. It's always a net gain in terms of time. I've seen the multi-variate testing plans, and I get that they could work in theory, but I've always found it better and easier to just run more simpler and focused tests. That's just my experience in 30 years of professional and hobbyist engineering. I didn't race WSBK, but I did design data acquisition systems for jet engines. If it were me, I'd be using my track time to chase down stuff other than peak HP. I can do that on a dyno somewhere in Wisconsin where I have a full lab, full access to parts and machinery, and some restless elves with parked motorcycle syndrome because the outside wind chill is -50. On the track, I want handling, braking, and tire data... the kind of stuff I can't really get in my lab. (Message edited by reepicheep on February 19, 2014) (Message edited by reepicheep on February 19, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
If it were me, I'd be using my track time to chase down stuff other than peak HP. I can do that on a dyno somewhere in Wisconsin where I have a full lab, full access to parts and machinery, and some restless elves with parked motorcycle syndrome because the outside wind chill is -50. On the track, I want handling, braking, and tire data... the kind of stuff I can't really get in my lab. In a perfect world that would be fine. However the team have left it so late without any testing that they are now in the situation where they are having to test & develop everything the week before the season starts. If I was running the team I would have ditched the first flyaway round completely, and concentrated on being properly ready for the second round in April (As Bimota appear to be doing-if they get homologated). At least that way they would have the engine sorted (hopefully) so that when they get to the track they just have to dial it in rather than develop the whole package. | ||
| Classax |
If I was running the team I would have ditched the first flyaway round completely, and concentrated on being properly ready for the second round in April With all due respect, WHY? I thought everyone on the EBR Hero side has made it clear they aren't expecting to win. I say get out there and run laps, get your data. So what you lost the first round, of the first year. I assure you if they finish dead last, with a ton of data and then improve for next race, it would be worth it. Those that are going to buy EBR bikes won't really not buy one because they finished last in superbike. HERO is looking to have its name seen and mentioned around the world, period. The only real fail would be to blow up and oil the track resulting in the red flag of the race. Other wise continue your developmental year or couple... | ||
| Court |
>>>>>If I was running the team I would have ditched the first flyaway round completely Oh how quickly we seem to have forgotten the lambasting the ERB folks took for . . . "they won't even be able to make an appearance at Phiilip Island and will have to make their first appearance at the 2nd race of the seasons". These guys are smart. I know Erik, Geoff and the Crew Chief. This is not their first rodeo. They have unique challenges, coming in so quickly, but Erik Buell was racing professionally before Richie Havens strummed the opening chord at Woodstock and he's got a keen memory augmented with years of data on motorcycling, racing and what people can and can not do under certain schedules. Different folks will hold, based on predisposition, a myriad of opinions . . . I'm rootin' for Elves all the way. That enthusiasm is not born out of some cliche' "fan boy" mindset but years of being in the middle of this dating back to the days when a $,3000 business loan was HUGE and a $1,200 payment made the difference in making payroll one week. I enjoyed the linked article above.
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| Trojan |
With all due respect, WHY? Simple really. We keep abreast of developments so we know that the EBR is a work in progress and won't be likely to be competitive at the first round. However...the vast majority of casual WSB spectators won't have the first clue who Erik Buell is or where EBR are in terms of development. What they will see is another factory team on the grid that looks just as slick as the rest and they will expect performance to match. While the team will undoubtedly gain experience and learn a lot from racing they may just leave with egg on their faces and a poor reputation starting to build after just one race where they were unprepared. Personally I think they could gain much more by missing the first round and arriving at the second round fully prepared than by racing at PI when they are not ready. I too am rooting wholeheartedly for the EBR team to do well, but am only too aware of previous faux pas and failure to win at Daytona etc that will be remembered only too clearly by the press if they mess up in WSBK (depite being a new company the press still assocoiate Erik Buell/EBR with Buell, and all the baggage that comes with it). | ||
| 46champ |
Court I hope you are right but I have to agree with Matt on this one. I for one feel they should have ran EVO this year. From what I have read that sounds like all they are racing for the first few races anyway. | ||
| Hughlysses |
"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about."- Oscar Wilde  | ||
| Tpoppa |
WSBK test times - combined: 1. Sykes (Kawasaki) 1'30.239 average 177.329 kph 2. Laverty (Suzuki) 1'30.513 3. Lowes (Suzuki) 1'30.528 4. Melandri (Aprilia) 1'30.579 5. Giugliano (Ducati) 1'30.644 6. Baz (Kawasaki) 1'30.757 7. Guintoli (Aprilia) 1'30.766 8. Haslam (Honda) 1'30.798 9. Rea (Honda) 1'30.813 10. Davies (Ducati) 1'31.087 11. Canepa (Ducati) 1'31.373 12. Elias (Aprilia) 1'31.441 13. Salom (Kawasaki) 1'32.008 14. Foret (Kawasaki) 1'32.780 15. Corti (MV Agusta) 1'32.858 16. Morais (Kawasaki) 1'32.895 17. Guarnoni (Kawasaki) 1'32.897 18. Barrier (BMW) 1'32.997 19. Andreozzi (Kawasaki) 1'33.205 20. Scassa (Kawasaki) 1'33.960 21. Fabrizio (Kawasaki) 1'34.314 22. Toth (BMW) 1'34.750 23. May (EBR) 1'34.807 24. Yates (EBR) 1'36.662 25. Sebestyen (BMW) 1'42.242. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/922/17957/Motorcycle -Article/2014-WorldSBK-Phillip-Island-Test-Ends.as px | ||
| Svh |
Definitely way down on HP. Even more so than in the last couple years in AMA. Down 25-30mph in the speed traps and 6 seconds off the leader. I wish they would have run a young kid from WSS that knows the tracks along with Geoff or Aaron just to have someone familiar with the tracks. Although I am discouraged they are so far off the pace, I am hopeful they can pick up some time somehow. (Message edited by svh on February 19, 2014) | ||
| M2typhoon |
Man.. all this doom and gloom is getting me down. Even as optimistic as I am, I have to remind myself that they must have known the HP numbers of the manufacturers to some extent before taking this on, it's not a huge secret really. I wouldn't say they're sandbagging but being safe is the wording I'm looking for. Yeah Geoff and Aaron are considered veterans but not in WSBK. They are both rookies all over again on an untested bike, with absolutely no data other than what they could use of the RS info. Is it possible that the fuel curves aren't in atomic bomb mode, maybe. Being 25-30mph down sounds absurd to me. I can see 15-20 tops. Why would you build a bike to race in WSBK if you knew going into it that you were going to be slaughtered by everything on the track because you knew that you were down a ton of power. It just doesn't add up. | ||
| Hughlysses |
If (and I emphasize IF) EBR is "way down" on horsepower, they must be astronomically ahead of the other teams on cornering speed and/or torque. I'd think a 25 MPH deficit would have their lap times ~15 seconds behind the other teams, yet they're only 4-5 seconds behind. We don't "know" squat yet, except that EBR's bikes were slower than the other brands in testing this week. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Just tuning in to hear what's happening down under. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
The 1200cc 2cyl Ducs were 10-15km/h slower than the 1000cc 4cyls the last years ...... and they were pretty competitive... There were tests in the USA for the EBR RS and the Ducati Panigale , and they reported that the Duc was noticably faster.... There will be a clearer picture in a few days ..... Let us enjoy the races ! ! ! Supporting EBR ..all the way !!!!  | ||
| Reepicheep |
1 BMW down, one in our sights, one more to go after that. Is BMW new this year as well? Look at it this way, EBR already beat every KTM on the field.  | ||
| Classax |
I have NEVER encountered a casual WSBK fan. The CycleNews article on the Panigale puts forth some great insight on the challenges a new platform has to overcome, especially being a V twin. That said I would think the commentators will be more than willing to educate the fans on who the new kids on the block are. I think they will both improve quite a bit (2 seconds) by the time the flag drops, and run at the tail end of the superbikes and with the talented EVO's. Mat, I too would have thought they would have run EVO but they are willing to endure a trial by fire in the top class so since they're willing, we'll have to watch them take their lumps. GO EBR! (Message edited by classax on February 19, 2014) | ||
| Hootowl |
Interview said he wanted to go full superbike so that he would have the flexibility to make changes from OEM parts. A new swingarm and gearbox, for example. | ||
| M1combat |
"Vtpeg , I do not think is sandbagging..... More like M1combat said, they are trying to figure the ratios " You still missed my point. "figuring" ratios is easy. My point with that was that I suggested maybe they specifically AREN'T changing the gear ratios. Running with a somewhat docile gear set compared to others has a few advantages. It forces the rider to eek everything they can out of corner speed, it doesn't show your hand on the straights, you keep have a much better chance of keeping the engine in one piece (if you're worried about that)... Among others... My point is... Lap times aren't the goal of racing. Having the potential for lap times is the point of practice. Still... This is shakedown. Not quite practice. "If I was running the team I would have ditched the first flyaway round completely" Thank God you aren't running the team. You'd really skip hours of track time in an effort to get ready for track time? Sounds logical. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh and... All reports aside from Matt's and vag46's indicate that it's ~25Kph down. Not Mph. That's a LOT easier to swallow with a lack of proper gearing and a lack of a few HP in mind along with a likely lack of exit speed out of the final turn cause it's a SCARY EFFING TURN that has produced many very high speed high sides. I know... Exit speed doesn't affect top speed a lot on a long/very fast straight but it does affect it. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
M1combat, If a WSBK team is playing those "gear tricks" that you describe to force their riders into a certain riding style, then they are in deep sh#t ! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
According to superbikeplanet .... it is 25 miles/hr , unfortunately | ||
| Mackja |
Superbike Planet, a bastion of accuracy, they still call EBR Buell, and we all know how kind they have been in the past to Buell. I don't take anything Stupid bike planet says serious when it concerns EBR! | ||
| Jscott |
You'd swear Erik used to give Dean Adams wedgies and stuff him in lockers in a past life. That dude has the biggest vendetta against Erik. | ||
| Blake |
From Hugh's crash.net link above... >>>Crucially for EBR, the 1190RX is considerably down on top speed compared with its rivals, with May reaching the speed gun at 278km/h. This is compared with Sylvain Guintoli, who was the quickest rider in straight line at 314km/h. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Does anyone besides Court and I remember the first Buell race bike and what it took to make it competitive? G | ||
| M1combat |
"M1combat, If a WSBK team is playing those "gear tricks" that you describe to force their riders into a certain riding style, then they are in deep sh#t !" You're STILL missing my point. Now I'm beginning to wonder why. I'm not talking about any gear tricks. I'm not talking about a riding style. I'm talking about a race team deciding to work on chassis setup knowing that a gear change is easy and relatively quick and they'll get to it when they get to it. No tricks. Just checking off the list where gearing isn't at the top of the list. thanks for the clarification Blake. That's a lot better than "It's quite a few Kph... or Mph. Or maybe it's not a LOT but it's more than I think it should be. Maybe. I'm not sure..." I admit I read that article and skimmed over the speeds listed there and came away with "about 30Kmh difference" so really I'm just as guilt of seeing what I wanted to, just in the other direction  . | ||
| Rodrob |
For what it's worth, I beat Panigales on a regular basis on my 1190RS. The only one I have not been able to out motor, is the linited edition R version with all titanium engine internals. Now, I am no WSB racer and either are the guys I race, but I do think that it is an indication of the potential. I am curious as to why they added a fuel tank under the tail. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is good to hear that your EBR1190RS is faster than your friend's DucPanigale..........In WSBK trim , we will find out in 2 days..... They need 24liters for the WSBK races , that is the maximum allowed.... So the added fuel tank , tops up the existing frame/tank.... What is the fuel capacity of the frame on the 1190RS ?? (Message edited by vagelis46 on February 20, 2014) | ||
| Rodrob |
What is the fuel capacity of the frame on the 1190RS ?? Same as the RX - 4.5 US Gallons. In WSBK trim , we will find out in 2 days..... I don't think so. I think it's very early in the game and EBR has a long road ahead in WSB. I would be pleasantly shocked if they were beating Ducatti this weekend. But they will be developing. As I said, the potential is there, but there is a lot of development yet to do. That they are there at all is amazing. |
