| Author | Message | ||
     Gaesati |
We're the gear driven cams on Aprilia within the rules? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You have to remember that Ducati had the rules pretty much written for them for many years too, back when 4 cylinder bikes were limited to 750cc. You mean when no one was really interested in the series Matt. lol. One set of rules to suit everyone is all that is needed. If you cannot meet the rules don't race, just like every other competiton in the world. Ok. So what is wrong with a rule that says producers build by numbers agreed? Something like Honda, Yam, Suz, Kawa, BMW, etc x 1000 Ducati x 500 MV x 350 EBR x 150 Bimota x 50 Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
We're the gear driven cams on Aprilia within the rules? If the number of street bikes built for homologation ran them it would be such a simple answer, though I fear this is where the rule book got screwed about with. I harbour two different thoughts on this and they are poles apart! Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
Like I said how about 750 for everyone. Anything less simply doesn't put enough skin in the game. | ||
| Trojan |
Ok. So what is wrong with a rule that says producers build by numbers agreed? Something like Honda, Yam, Suz, Kawa, BMW, etc x 1000 Ducati x 500 MV x 350 EBR x 150 Bimota x 50 Because Honda etc wouldn't accept it probably. And in a way I agree with them. If you say that Bimota only have to build 50 bikes then they can build the most exotic and expensive bike on the planet (it wouldn't really matter if nobody bought them at those numbers either) just for WSB domination. The whole point of WSB is to race modified PRODUCTION bikes, not small run specials and exotica. If a company wants to race in WSb then they have to follow the rules and build enough bikes. If they can't do that then they should look elsewhere to race, as Bimota already do in Moto2 and in various Italian Supertwin series. Did Aprilia and BMW have the requisite number of bikes built when they entered the competition? And more. We're the gear driven cams on Aprilia within the rules? They were in the letter of the rules but certainly not the spirit of them. It was as a result of this that the rule makers started to think about costs and to reduce the amount of expensive parts that teams could use, ultimately resulting in the EVO rules. | ||
| Crusty |
If you say that Bimota only have to build 50 bikes then they can build the most exotic and expensive bike on the planet (it wouldn't really matter if nobody bought them at those numbers either) just for WSB domination. If Bimota did that, they'd be out of business before the season was half way through.Small manufacturers don't have the capital to invest that much money into racing. The amount of money that would bankrupt a small manufacturer like Bimota or EBR is easily spent by a giant like Honda | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
If you say that Bimota only have to build 50 bikes then they can build the most exotic and expensive bike on the planet (it wouldn't really matter if nobody bought them at those numbers either) just for WSB domination. I think it would matter Matt as Bimota could not likely afford to build more than a few bikes without selling. And what if they do build the most expensive and most exotic bike on the planet? Bimota would still be using an engine from another manufacturer, and likely one already racing in the series, so no matter how exotic and costly, they wouldn't have an advantage engine or power wise. What they would have though is a very expensive very exotic streetbike which races in WSBK which would probably sell 50 homologated bikes if Bimota could build that many. The whole point of WSB is to race modified PRODUCTION bikes, not small run specials and exotica. Bimota might build small run specials and exotica. This is how this tiny company build PRODUCTION bikes. So why shouldn't they be entitled to race? I suspect what I've seen going at behind closed doors at Louth, Honda build production bikes into expensive exotic bikes to race in WSBK.  Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
What's wrong with having a single standard for every one. If you aren't building or selling a certain amount you just aren't ready for WSBK. Britton made an amazing bike, but good as it was/is, its not ready to compete in WSBK. Its up to the MFG to comply with the rules not the other way around. | ||
| Trojan |
This is how this tiny company build PRODUCTION bikes. So why shouldn't they be entitled to race? I suspect what I've seen going at behind closed doors at Louth, Honda build production bikes into expensive exotic bikes to race in WSBK. I think you are missing my point. WSB is designed for teams to race bikes that are based on normal everyday production motorcycles. The rules are drawn up so that only manufacturers of 'proper' mass produced production motorcycles can enter, and these are the rules that prospective entries must abide by. If they cannot build enough to qualify then they do not qualify aas 'series production' motorcycles and should look elsewhere to race (there are plenty of race series where minimum production quantities are not a pre-requisite). If Honda want to take a production motorcycle and modify it within the rules that they are perfectly entitled to do so (as is every other team). Suppose WSB decide to 'accomodate' Bimota so change the rules so that they only have to build 50 bikes a year. What happens then when Norton/FTR/KR/ANOther say they want to race their own bike (Nortons Aprilia RSV powered TT bike for example) in WSB if they only build 5 or 10? Do you then change the rules again so that you are in effect racing a prototype series with superbike engines....CRT in other words? It sets a dangerous precedent and the rules should not be changed. Now that Dorna own both WSb and MotoGP they really do need to make sure there is a wide demarcation line between the two series. Allowing effective prototype machines into WSB is a slippery slope. Its up to the MFG to comply with the rules not the other way around. Exactly  Bimota could not likely afford to build more than a few bikes without selling You say that, but it has been done before both by Bimota and Foggy Petronas (and Harley Davidson in AMA Superbike). Both failed to meet the regulations but were allowed to race, and both left the organisers looking a bit silly. | ||
| Jscott |
Cool news regarding the ability to stream WSBK races, practices, behind the scenes etc... http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wsbk/world-superbi ke-finally-online-video-streaming/#more-54565 | ||
| Classax |
You say that, but it has been done before both by Bimota and Foggy Petronas (and Harley Davidson in AMA Superbike). Both failed to meet the regulations but were allowed to race, and both left the organisers looking a bit silly. One can not leave out the 2002 season with Bernelli who only built 68 of the required 150 Tornado Novocento LE's they campainged for part of that year. Its happened before and if allowed it will happen again. If Dorna or (DMG AMA) were smart they would partner with one of the international moto shows and hold an invitational Mototechnology 2.5hr endurance race. Where by MFG's would be invited to actually test their concept bikes. This would allow one of, best of the best, bleeding edge technology efforts to be showcased with awards given in PRICE defined categories. Imagine Brambo and EBR on the same track at the same time racing in the premium $17K-$25k class. Or Honda and Ducati head to head in the Ultra $50K-$150k class. It would allow tiny firms showcase their efforts and large one to test new production parts while gaging reception from the public buying and racing communities. Its just a thought obviously the details would have to be worked out. My point is the MFG's do need a place to test and develop new engine and chassis components, but WSBK should be based on mass produced production machinery. In my little mind, "mass produced" means at least 750 machines per annum. | ||
| Trojan |
My point is the MFG's do need a place to test and develop new engine and chassis components, They already have it, it's called MotoGP or prototype racing. if they just want to test a chassis (as this is after all what Bimota build) there is Moto2. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Britton made an amazing bike, but good as it was/is, its not ready to compete in WSBK. Bit of a stretch really as Britton built exactly in my opinion what Matt is arguing against and I'd agree with him if Britton were around today and attempting to race in WSBK, simply because Britton is a racing bike with no intention ever as being a production streetbike. I think you are missing my point. WSB is designed for teams to race bikes that are based on normal everyday production motorcycles. The rules are drawn up so that only manufacturers of 'proper' mass produced production motorcycles can enter, and these are the rules that prospective entries must abide by. If they cannot build enough to qualify then they do not qualify aas 'series production' motorcycles and should look elsewhere to race (there are plenty of race series where minimum production quantities are not a pre-requisite). Actually Matt, I think you're missing mine . Once upon a time at the dawn of what is WSBK racing, Ducati were manufacturing exactly what you describe, except they were not by cost to the average motorcycle rider what you or I or anyone else would describe as a "normal everyday production motorcycle". In fact what Ducati manufactured was the first mass produced road legal racing bike. Hence its cost! What Ducati also manufactured was the bike that made the series what it is today, and this is a very important point. If it were not for Ducati, had the series survived, we would likely have exactly what series you describe. Instead we have what you describe, but with companies like Ducati having to manipulate the rule book to stay competitive against the mass producing manufacturers the size of the Japanese and BMW et al. If Honda want to take a production motorcycle and modify it within the rules that they are perfectly entitled to do so (as is every other team). Yes they are but that was not my point. Bikes that Honda race are not what you can buy off the showroom floor. They are every bit as exotic in pampered and prepared and modified race terms as a Ducati. It just happens that they are coming at the series from the opposite end of the spectrum as say Ducati are, but the polished race bike result is a similar end result. Suppose WSB decide to 'accomodate' Bimota so change the rules so that they only have to build 50 bikes a year. What happens then when Norton/FTR/KR/ANOther say they want to race their own bike (Nortons Aprilia RSV powered TT bike for example) in WSB if they only build 5 or 10? Do you then change the rules again so that you are in effect racing a prototype series with superbike engines....CRT in other words? I say bring 'em on. If these companies are prepared to race then they have to build the streetbikes. It's that simple. Thus they are NOT prototypes. They are production racing bikes which are homologated by the production of streetbikes. All that needs be in place is the numbers of producution streetbikes for the size of companies. This requires that Dorna work out a formula based on many aspects of a company wanting to race so as the series accommodates them. Hence it is not a series for mass production manufacturers only, but a series where the mass produced billion dollar companies can be taken on (and beaten) by small or even tiny volume producers with much much less clout at their disposal to do so, or more importantly, manipulate the rules for their benefits. And lastly, so as the buying public can own a streetbike version of that manufacturer. Be they massive and mass produced bikes or tiny and exotic and very very special and unique and only produced for production in very small numbers bikes. As for CRT. They should feck that idea off and get Moto GP back to what it should be. Prototypes that were never intended to be mass produced or road legal, but every bit as special to showcase the talents and abilities of the manufacturers taking part in the absolute top class of motorcycle racing. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Bikes that Honda race are not what you can buy off the showroom floor. They don't have to be to be within the rules. They have to be 'based' on a bike that is the same as you or I can buy from the showroom. With the new rules they are much more related to the showroom bikes than they have ever been though. Would I want to see a return to the days when factories built homologation specials just for WSB like the RC45, ZX7RR, GSXR750RR etc? All costing stupid money and being almost completely impossible to buy? I'd prefer to see more bikes, more manufacturers and closer racing with more showroom based/superstock engined bikes in WSb than see the grids decimated by expensive specials from just a couple of manufacturers. I'm sure this argument could run and run but in the end the rule makers will do what they think is financially beneficial for them, and the cynic in me thinks that this will involve considerable rule bending unfortunately. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
With the new rules they are much more related to the showroom bikes than they have ever been though. Would I want to see a return to the days when factories built homologation specials just for WSB like the RC45, ZX7RR, GSXR750RR etc? All costing stupid money and being almost completely impossible to buy? I'd prefer to see more bikes, more manufacturers and closer racing with more showroom based/superstock engined bikes in WSb than see the grids decimated by expensive specials from just a couple of manufacturers. I don't disagree with you Matt. Imagine you had what you describe, and the Bimotas etc of the world were allowed to run. They might build exotic expensive race bikes, and production bikes in enough volume (whatever the amount could be?) to substantiate their entry, but nothing else would change which would be detrimental to WSBK as a race series. Bimota have always built exotic expensive production bikes. Why would such exotica have an advantage over say a race prep Fireblade if we had a race prep Bimota? Given the rules were changed for all to run with stock engines with no tuning at all, no matter which engine Bimota chose (as they don't make their won) they would have no advantage power wise. Which leaves the chassis. Wouldn't you want to see a tiny company racing against the big players if their expensive exotica could give them a run for their money or even beat them? I would. Production racing is production racing. As such it should not be restricted to the likes of the mass producers only. In fact it should be even more so the small players should be allowed in as this is the top echelon of production motorcycle racing and a such a cottage industry should be welcomed with open arms to have an opportunity to beat the common garden variety. I've always loved the quirky and the underdog. They have their place and their right, and it isn't languishing in some race series where the rules cater for them conveniently and disqualifies them from where they really want to race. Like I said. It's a numbers game. All the rules need do is make sure production streetbikes are what's racing and the production numbers balance the size of the company to the amounts built on such a scale any and all manufacturers can enter and race. This is how it's supposed to be now isn't it? Rocket in England | ||
| 46champ |
Everyone needs to remember when talking about Superbike racing above all it is STOCK CAR RACING. It is just too bad NASCAR has been regulated into spec racing, and it started with allowing homologation specials. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Everyone needs to remember when talking about Superbike racing above all it is STOCK CAR RACING. It is just too bad NASCAR has been regulated into spec racing, and it started with allowing homologation specials. The same would not happen in WSBK as it pretty much is the reliance upon racing mainstream production motorcycles from the big four Japanese manufacturers, and one Italian of note, that keeps the series grounded to essentially that. A production motorcycle racing series. Allowing 'specials'. Or More precisely, low volume production motorcycles to run will have little to no affect on the series. I mean let's face it. They're never going to win it. Likely never even win a race. And if they were capable the rules would see to it that they were not. Rocket in England | ||
| Davegess |
US stock car racing got to where it is because US production sedans, for that matter any mass produced production car, where not suitable for the high speeds the new banked ovals generated. The roll cages were used to stiffen them up quite a bit but to go 500 miles at 150 mph on the high banks (incredible G forces just tear up s unibody car) you really needed a real racing chassis. So that is what we got, racing chassis with fake bodywork. The only other choice was lose the banking and slow the cars down. | ||
| Jyhfeei |
From Geoff's Facebook account, looks like there was no EBR testing in Spain this weekend. I hope they can get it together for Australia. | ||
| Trojan |
Or More precisely, low volume production motorcycles to run will have little to no affect on the series. I mean let's face it. They're never going to win it. Likely never even win a race. But what if they do win (they did after all win a race with the SB8 I think in Australia). We need to have rules that are fair for all manufacturers, and by allowing snall volume manufacturers to benefit form lower homologation numbers could open the door for big manufacturersr to do the same (as happened in the past to the detriment of the series overall). I'd like to see Bimota, Norton and others in WSBK but not at any price. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I'd like to see Bimota, Norton and others in WSBK but not at any price. Surely then it must come down to making a set of rules work is all? Business models and the politics of the series owners and organisers aside of course. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
looks like there was no EBR testing in Spain this weekend Any more info? times, which track etc? | ||
| Riohondohank |
Trojan, what part of no do you not understand. :-) | ||
| Classax |
With the tight schedule they will likely redirect the missing parts Down Under and get the first test in like a few other teams the early part of the race week. Phillip Island IMHO is not a good place to get initial set ups because now its so smooth and the surface eats rubber. Would have been better to get initial set up on a bumpier lower grip track (just my opinion). But hey its just 4 weeks away. Some of us may be testing an RX at our local tracks right about the same time May and Yates are testing Down Under. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Geoff May posted on Facebook yesterday something to the effect of that they were unable to test in Spain due to circumstances beyond their control. | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan, what part of no do you not understand. :-) Sorry, that is just my dyslexia/senility cutting in again! I didn't see the word NO in there so thougth that they had been testing somewhere Unfortunate for the team, as Philip Island is not the ideal place to realise that you needed something extra or didn't bring the correct gearing or spares  | ||
| 46champ |
So how does this work. Does the 1190RX race in world superbike with the suspension that it comes with or with modified internals? Or do you get to change out the forks? rear shock? and or the swing arm? or all of the above? If they get to change it out does that mean we are racing a RX/RS hybrid? | ||
| Trojan |
or all of the above? Spot on. A full WSB bike (as opposed to EVO) has pretty much a free choice on suspension, brakes, swingarm and various chassis components within certain price caps and homologation rules which are actually pretty wide in these areas. Most teams will run full on Ohlins suspension setups front and rear and some have swingarms made specifically for WSB. The engine is now much more rule restriced now and has to use a lot of stock components, although there is still quite a lot of scope for tuning. So....... the short answer is that it doesn't even have to be an RS/RX hybrid, but can use suspension parts that are not used on either street bike. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Spot on. A full WSB bike (as opposed to EVO) has pretty much a free choice on suspension, brakes, swingarm and various chassis components within certain price caps and homologation rules which are actually pretty wide in these areas. Most teams will run full on Ohlins suspension setups front and rear and some have swingarms made specifically for WSB. The engine is now much more rule restriced now and has to use a lot of stock components, although there is still quite a lot of scope for tuning. So....... the short answer is that it doesn't even have to be an RS/RX hybrid, but can use suspension parts that are not used on either street bike. Which is why I am a supporter of low volume production bike manufacturers running in WSBK, as they are at no more of an advantage building an exotic motorcycle when they will inevitably be using one of the manufacturers already competing engines. It's highly unlikely an advantage could be gained by an exotic built few of a kind rolling chassis over the chassis suspension set-ups available to the mass produced manufacturers when their race bikes are a very long way removed from the showroom floor bike by the use of top notch racing components. For this reason it makes a mockery of the production numbers required and the rules preventing some from entering when the mass produced bikes are knocking on the door of handbuilt exotics themselves once they've been race prepped. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
The confirmed runners and riders for this years WSb have now been officially published, and the EBR team are amongst only 15 full 'factory option' bikes on the grid. The rest of the 27 strong grid are EVO bikes (including the yet to be homologated Bimotas). In theory that should mean that the EBR runners 'should' be in the top 15 and in the points at the very least, as all of the factory option bikes should have a significant advantage over the EVO spec bikes in terms of power at least? It will be interesting to see just how things pan out in the first few rounds and how far off the front the EVO bikes actually are (I suspect that some of them will be surprisingly quick - especially the Kawasakis). 33 Marco Melandri ITA Aprilia RSV4 1000 Factory SBK Aprilia Racing Team 50 Sylvain Guintoli FRA Aprilia RSV4 1000 Factory SBK Aprilia Racing Team 52 Sylvain Barrier FRA BMW S1000 RR SBK EVO BMW Motorrad Italia Superbike Team 1 Tom Sykes GBR Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK Kawasaki Racing Team 44 David Salom ESP Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK EVO Kawasaki Racing Team 76 Loris Baz FRA Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK Kawasaki Racing Team 22 Alexander Thomas Lowes GBR Suzuki GSX-R1000 SBK Voltcom Crescent Suzuki 58 Eugene Laverty IRL Suzuki GSX-R1000 SBK Voltcom Crescent Suzuki 65 Jonathan Rea GBR Honda CBR1000RR SBK PATA Honda World Superbike Team 91 Leon Haslam GBR Honda CBR1000RR SBK PATA Honda World Superbike Team 2 Christian Iddon GBR Bimota BB3 * SBK EVO Team ALSTARE 86 Ayrton Badovini ITA Bimota BB3 * SBK EVO Team ALSTARE 24 Toni Elias ESP Aprilia RSV4 1000 Factory SBK Red Devils Roma 59 Niccolò Canepa ITA Ducati Panigale 1199 R SBK EVO Althea Racing 21 Alessandro Andreozzi ITA Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK EVO Team Pedercini 23 Luca Scassa ITA Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK EVO Team Pedercini 32 Sheridan Morais RSA Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK EVO IRON BRAIN Kawasaki SBK Team 84 Michel Fabrizio ITA Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK EVO IRON BRAIN Kawasaki SBK Team 10 Imre Toth HUN BMW S1000 RR SBK BMW Team Toth 56 Peter Sebestyen HUN BMW S1000 RR SBK EVO BMW Team Toth 7 Chaz Davies GBR Ducati Panigale 1199R SBK Ducati Superbike Team 34 Davide Giugliano ITA Ducati Panigale 1199R SBK Ducati Superbike Team 9 Fabien Foret FRA Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK EVO MAHI Racing Team India 11 Jeremy Guarnoni FRA Kawasaki ZX-10R SBK EVO MRS Kawasaki 71 Claudio Corti ITA MV Agusta F4 RR SBK RC-Yakhnich Motorsport 20 Aaron Yates USA EBR 1190 RX SBK Team Hero EBR 99 Geoff May USA EBR 1190 RX SBK Team Hero EBR * STH: Subject to homologation Nice to see that Chaz Davies has got number 7 on his bike again WSS provisional entries are also published, and I must say the field looks a lot weaker this year. I can't see anyone really troubling Sofuoglu for the title although PJ Jacobsen will prvide some US interest at leaast and could do well once he gets to know the tracks and his new bike. Provisional World Supersport entries: 54 Kenan Sofuoglu TUR Kawasaki ZX-6R MAHI Racing Team India 16 Jules Cluzel FRA MV Agusta F3 675Yakhnich Motorsport 65 Vladimir Leonov RUS MV Agusta F3 675 Yakhnich Motorsport 26 Lorenzo Zanetti ITA Honda CBR600RR PATA Honda World Supersport Team 60 Michael van der Mark NED Honda CBR600RR PATA Honda World Supersport Team 21 Florian Marino FRA Kawasaki ZX-6R Kawasaki Intermoto Ponyexpress 99 Patrick Jacobsen USA Kawasaki ZX-6R Kawasaki Intermoto Ponyexpres 88 Kev Coghlan GBR Yamaha YZF R6 DMC Panavto-Yamaha 161 Alexey Ivanov RUS Yamaha YZF R6 DMC Panavto-Yamaha 11 Christian Gamarino ITA Kawasaki ZX-6R Team GO Eleven 44 Roberto Rolfo ITA Kawasaki ZX-6R Team GO Eleven 24 Marco Bussolotti ITA Honda CBR600RR Team Lorini 84 Riccardo Russo ITA Honda CBR600RR Team Lorini 4 Jack Kennedy IRL Honda CBR600RR CIA Insurance Honda 7 Nacho Calero ESP Honda CBR600RR CIA Insurance Honda 5 Roberto Tamburini ITA Kawasaki ZX-6R San Carlo Puccetti Racing 61 Fabio Menghi * tbc ITA Yamaha YZF R6 VFT Racing 14 Ratthapark Wilairot THA Honda CBR600RR Core PTR Honda TBA ** Honda CBR600RR Core PTR Honda 89 Fraser Rogers GBR Honda CBR600RR Com Plus South Tyneside College SMS 9 Tony Coveña NED Kawasaki ZX-6R Kawasaki Ponyexpres Intermoto TBA ** Honda CBR600RR Lorini Racing Team 19 Kevin Wahr GER Yamaha YZF R6 Team Wahr by Kraus Racing *tbc: To be confirmed **TBA: To be announced |
