| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
And I was just paraphrasing others who came to the same conclusion at the end of Lorenzo's FIRST championship season. | ||
| Bads1 |
Like Trojan has said. Rossi is riding the bike that Lorenzo has now developed. Rossi is in some ways having to adapt to it. And Rossi's riding style is not that of the same to his team mate. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Oh the Rossi bashing? Why is there a need for once Rossi fans to shout from the roof tops they've realised he's not the fastest anymore. What is it you want those who don't agree to understand about YOU? It's easy to make statements about Lorenzo being quicker when he's reaping the rewards of any advantages available. History however is not so sympathetic. Take for example Lorenzo's 2010 first championship winning season. A season where Rossi broke his leg. Had Pedrosa not broken his collarbone in practice and missed two races, that would likely have been Pedrosa's championship. Lorenzo has never won a title from Rossi in a straight fight so I don't see how such statements about him being faster than Rossi can hold water when we look at each rider individually and merit them so by their own circumstances. If we did likewise for other seasons Lorenzo would be more likely to win in an ambulance than beat Rossi on a bike. This year is no exception and has not been a straight fight. Rossi has returned to a bike that is so far removed, by Lorenzo, from the one Rossi left behind, yet look how close Rossi is to Lorenzo's times at every race. What is clear from Rossi's performance this year is he has lost non of his ability. I doubt if the tables were turned Lorenzo would be as close to Rossi if it were he that was coming off a two season long lacklustre Ducati and returning to Yamaha and a Rossi focused one at that. However, we will never know. What we do know is there's no proof that Lorenzo was ever quicker previously or even now, but you can imagine either way, though history and not just a glance at the statistics will tell the whole story and the facts. The facts do not support at any time Lorenzo being the consistently faster rider than Rossi. I believe Rossi could win a championship or more given the right bike and team. I doubt for example the same could be said of at least a dozen or so others. It's probably easier to say there's only four racers riding in the world today who could win the title right now if luck played no part. Rossi is one of them and nothing factually nor statistically says he's the less likely of the four. At least not when talking Rossi the racer regardless of his bike or team. Just the facts gentlemen. Just the facts. Rocket in England | ||
| Jaimec |
I don't remember Vale missing any races last year. It's not "Rossi bashing" when you praise Lorenzo. You want Rossi-bashing? Go back and read XB1125R's posts. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You say it's not 'Rossi bashing' after making an out of context statement? "I don't remember Vale missing any races last year". Since when has a Ducati, or red piece of crap as you called it Jamie, been considered a straight fight against a Yamaha? Rocket in England | ||
| Gaesati |
"Since when has a ducati, etc, etc, etc," Possibly 2007? | ||
| Trojan |
The facts do not support at any time Lorenzo being the consistently faster rider than Rossi. You know that I am in the 110% Rossi fan camp, and have been so since he won his first race at Donington on a 125 all those years ago, so please don't take this as Rossi bashing. Lorenzo has been faster than Rossi all this year on identical machinery. The setup is different adn Rossi admits that he cannot use Lorenzos settings or ride like Lorenzo does without crashing (as does Crutchlow and Smith, who both have access to Lorenzos data). If you look at todays race you will see a microcosm of the 2013 season at Yamaha, and that Lorenzo is just faster than Rossi this season, period. He used every ounce of race craft that he had to try and slow the pack down in the first half of the race, and still Rossi was never more than 4th place apart from one lap where a mistake was made at the front. Rossi says himself that he will look at the winter tests and the first 5 or 6 races next year to see if he can be fast enough again, or will retire, so he knows that he is not at Lorenzos level right now. Replacing Burgess is just the last card that Rossi can change that could make a difference. if that doesn't work then he knows that the only factor left is himself. Since he broke hisleg and the Simoncelli crash I think that Rossi has lost 'something'. His two years at Ducati didn't help, and he is certanly still fast enough to be 4th in the world, but there is that special spark that is not there now. Hopefully he can get it back next year but it will be harder again, with more new kids arriving on quick bikes next season. Possibly 2007 2007 was a strange year to say the least. Ducati went for an aggressive power/fuel strategy while both Japanese companies went for a more conservative approach in the first year of the 800 class. Ducati got their maths correct and managed to get a one year lead over the others, which won them the championship. Since then they haven't had any advanatge and have got progressively worse, not better. Next year may be their last chance for another title before Marlboro pull their money out  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I'm not sure those Yamaha's are identical as in EXACTLY, but I did see today what I thought was Rossi just holding station in fourth letting them get on with it at the front. He knew today of all races this season this was the race he could not hope to spoil even if he could have got amongst the three front runners. So I don't think todays race was the microcosm you say Matt to make comparison with Lorenzo for all of the season. Marquez turned down the taps too after a while. My only criticism of Lorenzo today was that he didn't think to wave Marquez on for a race to the flag! Relinquishing the title as he did, you'd think he'd have encouraged a good scrap for the hell of it. Not that Marquez would have taken the bait so I suppose flicking the V's might have done the trick rather than an encouraging wave, lol. Good result I suppose, though it doesn't bode well for next season. As things are right now it's likely there's only two racers in it and I don't see Lorenzo taking the title back from Marquez. We might as well take next year off then and give Marquez the trophy for two years. Hopefully by then Dorna will have done much to level the playing field and close up the racing! Rocket in England | ||
| Vagelis46 |
People at Yamaha must be thinking now .... why do they pay Rossi ?? Does he deserve a factory ride ? He did not even bother to make a move on Marquez...... This was the Rossi's worst race ...ever ! | ||
| Davegess |
Rossi may be on the downside of his career; certainly not the rider he once was but is that not expected at his age? Even with that he is paid what he is paid because he is so popular. Yamaha generates more publicity and good feelings from fans than if the had any other rider even one that is faster than Rossi. He is the aging superstar; not able to win easily but still able to draw the spotlight to him. WE are talking about him, everyone is talking about him, even when he finishes off the podium he is able to bring a ton of attention to his team and his sponsors. When you are a truly at the level of Rossi, and I don't think anyone since Hailwood has attracted the attention Rossi gets from non-racing fans, your result no long matter. Look at Elvis or Michael Jackson, dead for how long and still top earners in the pop music business. For folks like Rossi It is not how fast they are now but how much attention they get and No one in motorcycle racing gets more then him. Yamaha has certainly gotten their money;s worth form him. | ||
| Jaimec |
Hell of a race, and Lorenzo's race craft was on full display today. He purposely kept the pace down in hopes that SOMEONE else on a Yamaha could step up and spoil Marquez's party. When it became apparent that he was on his own, he just dropped the hammer and no one else was even close. Just like the last time the title was decided in the final race, the world champion won fewer races than the runner-up. I know everyone says "What if" if Marquez didn't crash, or get the black flag... but what if Lorenzo hadn't busted his shoulder twice?? Ah well... can't wait to see what Nicky can do with 24 liters of fuel and 12 engines at his disposal next season. What do you suppose will happen if the guys on the customer Hondas start challenging the factory boys? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
It's just become apparent to me you're a Lorenzo fan boy. Is this an Hispanic thing Jamie? Now it all makes sense  Lorenzo didn't back the field up for Rossi to get in front of Marquez. Why would he? Lorenzo knows more than anyone on the planet Rossi had no chance of beating Marquez in this title deciding race. What Lorenzo was hoping for was to create chaos, and for a while he did. Not so much race craft. More like blind determination up to the point he nearly knocked Pedrosa off. In fact Pedrosa would have won the race had Lorenzo not knocked him off track. Not much point in having an investigation after the race but some penalty will confirm the wrong racer won today. Rocket in England (Message edited by rocket_in_uk on November 11, 2013) | ||
| 46champ |
What do you suppose will happen if the guys on the customer Hondas start challenging the factory boys I think that by no more than 2 races later a 1/2 a second greater difference will show up in the qualifing and lap race times. | ||
| Simond |
Watching Lorenzo's moves yesterday made me laugh after all the head shaking and complaining about Marquez mid-season. It's great to have a new Champion and one that clearly loves what he does and isn't afraid to show it. Something that's been missing since Rossi last won. ....and Sean, I'm not Rossi bashing; there's no rider I would rather see win than Rossi but there's no getting away from the results of this year and 2010. I'm sure that if these changes for 2014 don't allow him to challenge Marquez and Lorenzo he'll be driving rally cars before the end of the year. | ||
| Trojan |
Lorenzo didn't back the field up for Rossi to get in front of Marquez. Why would he? Yamaha have openly admitted that the tactic was to try and slow the race down and crowd the front so that 'anything could happen'. That included trying to get Rossi/Bautista/Crutchlow and anyone else that could do so get infront and spoil Marquez' race. Lorenzo slowed the pace to over a second slower than he had been going in practice during the first 10 laps (and still broke the lap record!) but all it did was bring him into contact with Pedrosa. Eventually he just decided to pull the pin and hope that something happened to Marquez behind him, adn he then made a 4 second gap in under 10 laps. Would Pedrosa have won if he could have got past Lorenzo cleanly? Who knows. He had plenty of chances to get past and make a gap but Lorenzo passed him every tinme within 2 corners, so it is a moot point really. Rossi and Bautista couldn't stay with the front 3 even when they slowed the pace by a second unfortunately. Once the pace got quicker towards the end they dropped right off again. Rossi admitted after the race that 4th is 'his potential now'. As David Emmett at Motomatters puts it... Valentino Rossi and Cal Crutchlow both felt that Marquez had deserved the title, though both also mentioned that the Yamaha was nowhere near the factory Hondas as a package. The difference between Rossi and Lorenzo was that Rossi was not able to ride the bike as he wants to. After yet another fourth place, Rossi said 'this is my potential now'. Until Yamaha can come up with a bike that is much more stable on the brakes, Rossi is set to languish in 4th, with little else he can do. | ||
| Trojan |
What do you suppose will happen if the guys on the customer Hondas start challenging the factory boys Honda won't mind if they start challenging the factory Yamahas, but ther eis no way they will be allowed to challenge the factory Hondas on a regular basis thats for sure. Honda say that the bike is around .3 seconds a lap slower than the factory bike (with Stoner riding). I would bet that translates to at least .5 per lap when it gets in the hands of teams. Extra fuel may help at some tracks but I would expect them to be behind both the factory and 'customer' factory bikes (but ahead of the privateer ART/Suter/FTR etc and all the Ducatis). | ||
| Jaimec |
Sean, the name may be Hispanic, but that's only because the country of my ancestors was a Spanish colony for 300 years... I just admire a rider who shows the precision and near perfection of control of a motorcycle like Lorenzo. Everyone else out there seems to be fighting a bucking bull whereas Jorge just seems to regally glide along on rails. I also think that habit of dangling the leg looks ridiculous. In the beginning, only Rossi did it. I guess when someone wins races by dangling their leg, everyone else wants to try it too (everyone but Lorenzo, that is). I'm surprised the other riders didn't try to emulate standing up while exiting pit lane and adjusting their "package" before sitting back down again... | ||
| Jaimec |
I remember reading an article (which, of course, I can no longer find) that said Yamaha basically painted themselves into a corner by developing their bike around Jorge. When they were developing around Vale's input, the result was a bike quite a few people could ride well (including Lorenzo). You could see that by the number of "Manufacturer's and Constructor's" titles Yamaha won during the "Rossi years." Unfortunately, Lorenzo's riding style appears to be unique. By building the bike around Lorenzo's style, they've come up with a bike that only Lorenzo can ride. Actually, not very different from the years Stoner rode for Ducati. I'm hoping Yamaha can rebound faster than Ducati next season. | ||
| Trojan |
When they were developing around Vale's input, the result was a bike quite a few people could ride well (including Lorenzo). You could see that by the number of "Manufacturer's and Constructor's" titles Yamaha won during the "Rossi years." I've read similar comments about Yamahas development direction. Even if you look back to when Rossi was at Honda the bike was able to be ridden by other riders with Rossis setup, so when he left th bike was still competitive enough to win a championship. Yamaha have thrown all their eggs into one basket with Lorenzo so they have to hope & pray that he doesn't decide to defect to Honda in 2015 (which is a real prospect). Just watched the first test on BT Sport (commentators are rubbish compared to Eurosport). Neither of the FTR Yamahas made it onto the track as they are still being built for Espagaaro/Edwards which was a shame. Also no factory Hondas on track today. Times were pretty quick with Lorenzo doing a 1.31.4 I think. Rossi waas just a couple of hundredths slower with Bradl third fastest. Crutchlow looked to be taking it easy on the Ducati, and has said that he may not do the whole test because they don't yet have the new bike. Redding still looks very sore and is obviously just getting to grips with the customer Honda. Incidentally the fastest of the new 'customer' Hondas was Aoyama and he was 2.6 seconds slower than Lorenzo, so Hondas assertion that the bike is only .3 slower than the factory bikes is looking a bit lame even accounting for the rider choice. Maybe by late tomorrow we'll see just how quick they are really when people try to set a decent time to please sponsors/teams/manufacturers at the end of the test (although with only Aoyama and Redding on the customer bikes I doubt they will get much closer to Jorge). Nice to see the test bikes running round in plain black carbon livery again though | ||
| Pwnzor |
To me, it appeared that Marquez played it smart. Why blow the whole thing by risking a get-off? In fact, he waved Pedrosa through. Funny thing, I didn't see Dani shaking his head at Jorge after it was over. | ||
| Simond |
Matt, I doubt that those commentators are the ones they'll use next year. Aren't they the guys that do an English Language commentary for Dorna that gets touted around the world. I suspect that Neil Hodgson will be involved and I doubt we've heard the last of Julian Ryder. I hope they keep some input from Neil Spalding too. I don't think that you can read much in to today apart from the fact that Pol Espargaro's helmet/leather colour scheme looks fantastic. | ||
| Jaimec |
Likely they're all recovering from MASSIVE hangovers... | ||
| Bads1 |
Since he broke hisleg and the Simoncelli crash I think that Rossi has lost 'something'. His two years at Ducati didn't help, and he is certanly still fast enough to be 4th in the world, but there is that special spark that is not there now. Hopefully he can get it back next year but it will be harder again, with more new kids arriving on quick bikes next season Couldn't agree more... and I think it may be Marco's death and him being involved with the bike contact actually still brings the demons inside him. | ||
| Bads1 |
Whats your thoughts on Silvano Galbusera being Rossi's crew chief. Hes done great things with great riders but he not been in MotoGP. Interested to hear others thoughts?? | ||
| Amafan |
Nicky Hayden will test the Honda Production racer in about 6 hours,then we will see if it is a decent bike or not. | ||
| Trojan |
Marquez has obviously shaken off his hangover this morning and has set a 1.30.6 time on the new for 2014 Honda factory bike (2 tenths faster than Lorenzos best today) with Pedrosa in third as usual. Hayden has been out on the production Honda but is a long way off the times of the leaders, as is Scott Redding on the other customer Honda, although he is still very injured and in considerable pain. I don't think he has done or will do many laps today. Nicky is currently 15th in the standings but I don't have his exact time. Aleix Espagaro on the new Yamaha/FTR hybrid is 13th and 2.16 seconds off the front. Edwards doesn't seem to have set a time yet on his FTR/Yamaha, although there have been pictures of him in the garage dressed ready to ride. Interesting to see the NGM/Forward garage full of Yamaha factory technicians though. All the Ducatis are in line astern from 8th to 14th, with only Pol Espagaro spoiling their formation flying in 9th place on the Tech 3 Yamaha. Bradley Smith is again pretty impressive in 7th but I don't know which spec bike he set that on. He was apparently going to be given a ride on the factory Yamaha some time this week but that is probably going to be tomorrow. I would think though that he has had an upgrade over his race bike for this season (basically a 2012 bike)and is riding Cals 'old' 2013 bike now. Early days, and we don't know who is testing what exactly yet. However I don't see any surprises or anyone challenging the top three from this season during this test at least. (Message edited by trojan on November 12, 2013) | ||
| Trojan |
Quick update....Hayden up to 11th before lunch on the customer Honda, but still a long way from Mr Honda's stated .3 of a second from the factory bike. more like 2 seconds at the moment. Usual caveat applies.. this is testing and who knows who is trying what and when, so times can overall be taken with a pinch of salt. Gaps though are interesting even at this point, as they will give a good comparison to see if the bikes improve for the next test. | ||
| Trojan |
Valencia MotoGP test Tuesday - conditions dry 1 MARQUEZ, Marc Repsol Honda Team 1:30.536 75 / 77 2 LORENZO, Jorge Yamaha Factory Racing 1:30.768 0.232 0.232 58 / 60 3 PEDROSA, Dani Repsol Honda Team 1:30.948 0.412 0.180 67 / 72 4 BRADL, Stefan LCR Honda MotoGP 1:30.990 0.454 0.042 57 / 60 5 BAUTISTA, Alvaro GO&FUN Honda Gresini 1:31.208 0.672 0.218 41 / 72 6 SMITH, Bradley Monster Yamaha Tech 3 1:31.397 0.861 0.189 77 / 78 7 ROSSI, Valentino Yamaha Factory Racing 1:31.414 0.878 0.017 56 / 57 8 DOVIZIOSO, Andrea Ducati Team 1:31.661 1.125 0.247 55 / 62 9 ESPARGARO, Pol Monster Yamaha Tech 3 1:31.836 1.300 0.175 66 / 72 10 IANNONE, Andrea Pramac Racing 1:31.844 1.308 0.008 61 / 68 11 CRUTCHLOW, Cal Ducati Team 1:32.114 1.578 0.270 53 / 53 12 PIRRO, Michele Ducati Test Team 1:32.473 1.937 0.359 47 / 65 13 HAYDEN, Nicky Power Electronics Aspar 1:32.576 2.040 0.103 76 / 76 14 HERNANDEZ, Yonny Pramac Racing 1:32.800 2.264 0.224 26 / 27 15 ESPARGARO, Aleix NGM Mobile Forward Racing 1:32.847 2.311 0.047 17 / 18 16 EDWARDS, Colin NGM Mobile Forward Racing 1:33.149 2.613 0.302 21 / 34 17 LAVERTY, Michael Paul Bird Motorsport 1:33.672 3.136 0.523 32 / 43 18 DE PUNIET, Randy Paul Bird Motorsport 1:33.833 3.297 0.161 22 / 37 19 REDDING, Scott GO&FUN Honda Gresini 1:34.541 4.005 0.708 22 / 23 20 DI MEGLIO, Mike Avintia Blusens 1:34.618 4.082 0.077 29 / 42 | ||
| Jaimec |
On the bright side, Nicky's fastest lap on the customer Honda was apparently faster than his fastest lap on the Ducati during the race... | ||
| Trojan |
Day 3 (no factory Yamahas present) 1MARQUEZ M.Repsol Honda Team1:30.287 2SMITH B.Monster Yamaha Tech 3+0.311 3BRADL S.LCR Honda MotoGP+0.581 4PEDROSA D.Repsol Honda Team+0.705 5BAUTISTA A.GO&FUN Honda Gresini+1.188 6ESPARGARO P.Monster Yamaha Tech 3+1.246 7IANNONE A.Pramac Racing+1.307 8ESPARGARO A.NGM Mobile Forward Racing+1.357 9DOVIZIOSO A.Ducati Team+1.429 10CRUTCHLOW C.Ducati Team+1.588 11PIRRO M.Ducati Test Team+1.596 12HAYDEN N.Power Electronics Aspar+1.836 13AOYAMA H.Power Electronics Aspar+2.243 |
