| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketsprink |
"Free market doesn't work in racing, where you need rules to make sure you are running on a level playing field. Without rules you would have anarchy, and before long no racing at all." Doesn't work as well as Blake thinks it does in the USA economy either. Because without regulations, ya get what we have right now. | ||
| Slaughter |
The free market DOES work in racing. If the MotoGP "product" is to out-sell other products that compete for sponsor and fan attention, they must do what it takes to keep the sponsors and fans they have and possibly even draw new ones in. If this means "socializing" the rules to "level the playing field" - to compete with nASScar, pro ball sports, card playing or HEAVEN FORBID - getting off the couch, going outside in the sunlight for an afternoon walk - then that is what MotoGP has to do. | ||
| Davegess |
Yeah, Blake you are a little over the top with the whole socialism thing. The rules have pretty much always been about leveling the playing field. To one extent or another every sport has them. The NFL is wildly successful in a large part because they share revenue. The lack of rules is what killed the old Can-Am series. When Porsche showed up and no one else either had the resources or didn't want to spend them BANG the whole thing died. Moto GP is in trouble.. | ||
| 46champ |
Dave you forgot that the year after Porsche ruled Can-Am with the 917, UPO Shadow showed up with a twin turbo Chevy, Porsche's counter was to pull out of the series. Honda will do the same thing. I am not advocating a formula Libre racing class, what is needed are rules that are not written by the manufactures. | ||
| Gaesati |
The problem with motogp is that there is too much money involved and NOT enough money involved. Either find a LOT more money for competitors Or make it cost a whole lot less too participate: either will work. I don't think the size of motogp compared to the F1 world is enough to pull the dollars necessary for a full blown series. Therefore, the answer is to find means for constructors and competitors to have a cheap and viable means of participation. Street engines with superchargers would be one way to go. | ||
| Davegess |
The problem with motogp is that there is too much money involved and NOT enough money involved. That hits the nail on the head. A combination of the weak economy and the wrong mix of places raced that Trojan mentioned have really hurt them. F1 has been very proactive in going to China, India, now Russia and using this to attract and keep the big money sponsors. Does Dorna have enough cash to go down this road now? It will take a few years of pouring money before these venues yield results. | ||
| Trojan |
MotoGP has another problem, and that is sharing world championship status with WSB. In car racing it is pretty easy to spot the differece between F1 and saloon car or stock car racing, but to a casual observer MotoGP and WSB look identical. That means sharing and fighting over diminishing sponsor revenue and progressively smaller factory involvement. If you want a very good example of what MotoGP will become if they don't positively encourage the CRT teams, just look at Sundays race at Philip Island. With both factory Yamahas out of play it turned into the dullest race of the dullest season so far. Not even a bit of rain and few crashes could liven up what was a dire spectator event (unless you are Australian and needed consolation after the rugby defeat to New Zealand of course!). Honda wiped the floor with the only competitive factory machines in the field, and look like doing so for the foreseeable future unfortunately  In complete contrast the Moto2 race was once again a thriller, as was the F1 race from Korea and both WSB races. In the pecking order of pure spectator interest MotoGP is flagging badly behind a lot of other motorsports these days It appears though that Dorna have finally cottoned on to the situation and are on a collision course with the manufacturers (Honda at the forefront). Rather than subsidise teams to lease 'second division' factory bikes they are now turing to the CRT bikes and looking to financially support teams willing to run to these new rules next year. This means that teams such as Aspar, Gresini and Pramac will get more financial (and rulemaking) support from DORNA to run CRT bikes than they did to lease factory machines, and the days of the factory lease bikes could be seriously numbered. After that it is only a matter of time before full factory bikes face restriction or tighter control, which will probably see some or all of them leave the series (again led by Honda probably)  Interesting times may yet lay ahead.... | ||
| Jaimec |
Once I heard Jorge was out, I didn't even bother recording the race. Another Honda cake walk. Looks like they finally managed to buy that championship by running FOUR factory bikes, and having three of the four fastest riders on their factory team. After ruining the series by forcing the 800cc bikes down our throats, it FINALLY paid off for them. Wonder how Rossi REALLY feels about switching to Ducati now? I think if he were on the M1, the series MIGHT have been a little tougher for Casey and Honda. Who knows? We never will, unfortunately. | ||
| 46champ |
Jaimec having Rossi on a Yamaha probably wouldn't have made much of a difference. I think Lorenzo is just a s fast as Rossi and I think the M1 is maxed out. | ||
| Jaimec |
Rossi has already proven that he doesn't have to be AS fast as Casey... just "close enough" (I'm thinking Laguna Seca). | ||
| Gaesati |
Vale has given both Casey and Jorge "master" classes in the past but both have served their apprenticeship now. I think Rossi wouldn't have fallen down so much if he were on the M1 and would have made the racing more entertaining but would not have influenced the final result. I would like to see what Bautista could do on a competitive bike. I'd also like to see Simoncelli on the red bike! Re: the dullness of the race. I was on the edge of my seat towards the end when the rain was coming in with everybody on slicks. Watching Rossi try to push through the pack, seeing Bautista and Hayden ride at their best is always enjoyable. The ongoing clash between Simoncelli and Dovizioso is also good. Hopefully the tech3 bike will be good enough for Dovi to stay close to Simoncelli next year. | ||
| Trojan |
Re: the dullness of the race. I was on the edge of my seat Hmmm. I must admit there were a couple of brief moments in the race that awoke me from my boredom induced slumber, but they were few and far between. When the highest point of interest in a race is watching 4 people fighting for 12th place it is a pretty dire situation unfortunately. Racing should see fights all the way down the field, not just the occasional overtake that we now think is exciting only in relation to the rest of the laps. I'd like to think it will improve next year, but I'm pretty sure it won't get any better until the entire field are riding CRT bikes and the factories have gone. Until that time we are looking at one factory dominating the racing unfortunately. Whether that is Honda or Yamaha doesn't really matter, because the racing suffers because of it. | ||
| Gaesati |
I would have to agree wih your asessment, Matt. | ||
| Jaimec |
I am far more optimistic that the return of the liter bikes will make for more interesting racing. We'll see. | ||
| Trojan |
I am far more optimistic that the return of the liter bikes will make for more interesting racing. We'll see The problem will still remain one of the 'Haves vs Have nots', and there are not enough 'haves' to make the racing interesting any longer (less next year than now). So even if the 1000cc bikes are better to watch, we will still only have 4-6 riders lucky enough to have a factory bike and run near the front. The rest will make up the numbers so that Dorna can continue to claim we are watching the 'best in the world' when in fact we are really watching 'the richest in the world' fight for the title. It looks like Dorna are determined however to wrest control from the factories and to encourage and support privateer CRT teams, which they see as the only realistic future for MotoGP. Hopefully this will lead to a situation where we have a 2 wheeled equivalent of F1, where teams buy/lease engines from a list of suppliers and then build or buy a chassis to go with it. You still get prototype racing but on a much more affordable scale The alternative is to try and find the 4.5 million Euros per year per bike to continue leasing 'factory' Hondas (one step down from factory bikes of course) + other team costs such as salaries, travel etc etc. Not many teams or sponsors seem to think that is a realistic option for the future..... | ||
| Jaimec |
Could always go back to the "good old days" as shown in that recent Yamaha video with Cal, Colin, Jorge, Ben, Eddie, Kenny, Wayne, etc (not to mention Fabio)...  | ||
| Blake |
Why do some claim that "MotoGP is in trouble"? Please offer their profit/loss stats. Sorry, I don't buy it. Viewership and attendance are doing just fine from what I've seen. The whole idea that past years of racing offered much better competition is not accurate. It's racing. Sometimes one team or manufacturer gets it really right and dominates. Get over it. Money alone is not a formula for success as Honda had proved for four years running beginning in 2007. You so want parity among the machines, then add weight to the winning machines. Too simple. | ||
| Bads1 |
Blake wheres the money??? I see it in a couple factory teams. The other 14 bikes...lol it seems in order to keep going it means sponsorship and that is dwindling. Ducati is basically pulled out of every form of racing to do what they are doing. And how long will that last at the rate they are going at right now?? Honda has said they may pull out if they are not allowed to run prototype engines. They may have no choice. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Where's the money? Not sure what you are asking about. My comment concerned teh contention that money is the major factor for winning, so I called attention to the HUGE amount of money attributed to Honda, who for four years even after getting the 800cc implemented, couldn't win a championship. Thus money is not all that matters. Don't tell Carlos Checa that Ducati has pulled out of all racing except MotoGP. I would cheer if Honda pulled out of MotoGP! MotoGP may lag and see diminished grids, but it will return to glory given time and better economics. In the mean time, people will still attend and watch, and that is the bottom line for the folks who own the rights to the series. That is the only money that really matters. | ||
| Gaesati |
Maybe full factory representation should entail the use of unproven or even/alternative technology. Let the factories experiment with making hub centre steering work, or alternative suspension or valve actuation/induction system. I.e. Ban factory machines that do not use some new technology. | ||
| Trojan |
Not sure what you are asking about. My comment concerned teh contention that money is the major factor for winning, so I called attention to the HUGE amount of money attributed to Honda, who for four years even after getting the 800cc implemented, couldn't win a championship. Thus money is not all that matters. How much do you think Honda/HRC have ploughed into the MotoGP effort in order to win this year? The bike that Stoner rode this year is just a continuation of the bike Pedrosa developed last year, and that went through at least 8 different frame/swingarm combinations etc during the season. Honda have probably spent around the same or more than EVERY other team combined just to win this championship this year. Even Honda can no longer afford to throw that amount of money at a sport for ever, and now they are feeling the pinch too. They are cutting their MotoGP spending by 30% and are increasing the cost of leasing bikes to satellite teams by 40%+ next year. There are very few teams that have the resources to spend €9million on leasing two bikes (plus rider salaries, team salraies, spares, travel, hospitality etc) so more and more are looking to the CRT option. Until this year Dorna have subsidised the satellite teams to lease factory bikes, but that ends this season, so satellite teams will have to find the full cost of leasing bikes if the want them or can afford them. Aspar, The richest privateer team in MotoGP cannot afford to lease two Ducatis next year (which are considerably cheaper than Honda) so have made the move to CRT, and LCR, Gresini and Pramac all lok to be doing the same. Don't tell Carlos Checa that Ducati has pulled out of all racing except MotoGP. Just because Checa's bike ran in different colours don't think that it isn't a factory 1198 Ducati. He had the bikes adn equipment that would have been the Xerox team bikes for 2011 and received a lot of factory support this year. Most of the factory team just moved across to Althea this year and it is to all intents and purposes a factory backed effort. One of he stumbling blocks in renewing the Althea team contract with Ducati for next year was that Ducati didn't want to continue offering them the same level of support thay got this year whilst developing the 1199 in Superstock racing at the same time. MotoGP may lag and see diminished grids, but it will return to glory given time and better economics. In the mean time, people will still attend and watch, and that is the bottom line for the folks who own the rights to the series. That is the only money that really matters. If teams can't afford to race, then spectators will not attend and TV contracts (where the real money comes from) will be harder to get hold of. Nobody is going to continue paying millions of dollars in TV rights to a sport that can't fill a grid every weekend. There are plenty of other sports competing for TV money and MotoGP doesn't have an automatic right to expect TV coverage for poor racing. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
MotoGP is more about the riders than the bikes , people seem to forget that. If you attend a motoGP race , most of the fans are rooting for a rider. People will follow Rossi even if he rides a MZ. The rider is more important than the machine....There are still riders that they will find the limit of the tires no matter what the bike is, just see the success Stoner had on the Duc . Honda found the hard way how important it is to have the fastest rider. They practicaly never made serious success , ever since Rossi left to Yamaha in 2004 , but now they look like 2 steps above the competition. They just signed the best rider , simple as that. MotoGP will be the same , or more interesting , with the CRT machines , as long as the best riders in the world race in motoGP. I am glad that Edwards is riding a Suter-BMW and will see him in motoGP next year. CRT is the future !!!!! Who cares about the factories , as long there are private teams that can get a Kawasaki-Yamaha-BMW-.....engine on their frame, and they produce a racing motorcycle to compete in motoGP. | ||
| Jaimec |
Edwards isn't riding a Suter/BMW. I think he was planning on a CRT bike powered by a WSBK-spec Yamaha R1 engine, but the chassis is still up in the air. | ||
| Jaimec |
I apologize! I didn't hear of the switch: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2011/edwards+to+bmw+ suter+for+2012 | ||
| Trojan |
They just signed the best rider , simple as that. Of course 4 years of extensive development hasn't helped them? This years bike is pretty much just a development of the bike that Pedrosa worked on perfecting last year, so although Stoner is very good he certainly landed in the right garage at the right time this year. You only have to look at how well the other factory Hondas are doing to see that it is by far the best bike on the grid at the moment. If you want confirmation of Honda dominance just look at todays FP1 & FP2 times from Sepang. Honda fill the top 5 places with Pedrosa 0.8 seconds faster than stoner at the top of the pile. If Pedrosa hadn't been injured for most of the year I think he would have made more of a fight for the championship. Colin Edwards is the fastest of the non Honda riders this morning, but at 1.7 seconds off pole is effectively a mile away (although a lot closer than he is likely to get on the Suter/BMW!). I agree that MotoGP should be about riders rather than manufacturers, and I look forward to the day when we have a full grid of 'CRT' teams rather than just a few elite factory teams. (Message edited by trojan on October 21, 2011) | ||
| Simond |
Of course 4 years of extensive development hasn't helped them? This years bike is pretty much just a development of the bike that Pedrosa worked on perfecting last year, so although Stoner is very good he certainly landed in the right garage at the right time this year. If you were Stoner, what would you do? Agonise over your lack of development ability or jump on the fastest bike and make everyone else look silly? I don't particularly like him but he is great to watch - even circulating on his own. He may not be the complete package but you've got to admire his ability to ride almost anything to a competitive level.......if he's not too tired! .....and I'll never let another Aussie call me a whinging Pom! | ||
| Bads1 |
MotoGP is more about the riders than the bikes , people seem to forget that You should maybe go look on other Brand motorcycle forums. I own a Honda and I'll tell ya they are very pro honda over on there forums. Kinda like here with Buell. | ||
| Jaimec |
I agree. I pointed out MANY times to Vagelis, who accused me of being a "Rossi Hyper Fan" that I cared more that he was riding a YAMAHA than that he was Valentino Rossi. I find myself rooting more for Ben Spies and Jorge Lorenzo than I do Vale (though I've been following his "progress" with interest since he left the fold). I also root AGAINST Honda at every opportunity. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, this has been a MISERABLE season in MotoGP for me. | ||
| Gaesati |
R.I.P. Marco Simoncelli. | ||
| Geedee |
Very sad news. |
