| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
I am not proposing that racing there be banned. I'm saying that we should oppose the greedy commercialization and profiteering of such a horrifically deadly event by government and corporate interests. So of course you will be writing to the small arms manufacturers who are responsible for all the deaths caused by shooting every year (and who make huge profits from sales of deadly weapons!). I can't think of many race meetings that are not run for profit, if any worldwide. Many are run with public/government money, such as Spanish MotoGP races. Racing is dangerous, period. Should we ban all racing because of this or should we allow riders to choose which events they race at? When the IOM lost the world championship status people thought that it would die out becaue nobody would race there unless they had to, but this has been disproved time and again and now there are more potential riders than there are places available. The Manx GP is run as a purely amateur event with no money being paid to competitors and pretty much nothing made by the IOM. In fact money from the TT helps to fund the Manx to a large extent. If you are against the TT you are not obliged to attend or give them any money. I happen disagree quite strongly with shooting and hunting, but realise that some people enjoy it (and make a lot of money from it!), so I am not going to write letters to people about it  | ||
| Blake |
Just submitted this to the IOM government: To: Isle of Man Department of Economic Development Their TT page is at http://www.gov.im/tourism/motorsport/bike/tt.xml. It's clear that the IOM gov understands all too well that full disclosure of the events tragic reality would harm economic performance. | ||
| Blake |
>>> So of course you will be writing to the small arms manufacturers who are responsible for all the deaths caused by shooting every year (and who make huge profits from sales of deadly weapons!). That's a ludicrous analogy. Since when do gun manufacturers or anyone purchasing a gun not understand that guns are deadly weapons? Are gun manufacturers enticing people to participate, attend, or support events where people end up shot and killed every year? What kind of shooting range/event would exist in such a case? It wouldn't. So why does the IOM get a pass on their motorcycle events promotion aiming at increased revenues and economic growth? >>> I can't think of many race meetings that are not run for profit, if any worldwide. Many are run with public/government money, such as Spanish MotoGP races. Exactly, but they do not see four people dead as a result every year do they? How many have died racing motorcycles at Daytona since 1990, nothing close to 81! If the Isle of Man course were as safety minded as the Spanish GP courses, there'd be zero problem. >>> Racing is dangerous, period. Yes it is. >>> Should we ban all racing because of this or should we allow riders to choose which events they race at? You no read good. Why is it so difficult to understand the difference in calling for opposition to commercialization versus banning? One opposes greedy for profit exploitation in favor of quiet grass roots operation. The other seeks to end the event. Two entirely different things. Try to comprehend the difference. It's maddening having to repeatedly explain my point. Not sure what else I can say. The big red print not readable enough?  >>> I happen disagree quite strongly with shooting and hunting, but realise that some people enjoy it (and make a lot of money from it!), so I am not going to write letters to people about it : ) Some people hunt to put food on the table in order to survive. If you eat meat, you are just as much a killer of animals as any hunter. But the analogy rings hollow to the issue of hiding the truth while promoting what amounts to a death race. (Message edited by blake on March 23, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Answer the question?... Shouldn't the IOM TT organizers/government and their business partners clearly disclose as part of efforts to increase revenues and economic growth that their ever more commercialized motorcycle road racing events have on average since 1990 claimed four lives per year? (Message edited by blake on March 23, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Greg, >>> Killing the IOM has been Blake's pet project for some time now. Falsehood. I neither desire the "killing of the IOM (race)", nor is the issue my "pet project". I've invested all of a few hours on the issue in the past two years. It is a concern, not a project. I ask that you avoid this discussion if you cannot manage to stick to the issue rather than turn the discussion to me personally. Can you do that please? | ||
| Blake |
Rereading the thread, I found some of the comments worth revisiting. See following: >>> The ... safety standards at the IOM are the best in the racing world.  That one still has me befuddled. The best safety standards in the racing world? What??? A stack of hay bales against a stone wall, a meter from the racing line? >>> Of course the TT track is dangerous...it is a narrow country public road after all... so cannot have safe run off areas or catch fencing like a purpose built circuit would have. Why not? We have these things called bulldozers. I reject the silly idea that the course cannot be made moderately racing safe. It may not be easy or possible all at once, but it darn sure is 100% doable. It just requires the will to do so and some investment. Good grief, just since 2005, one race Marshall and two race spectators were killed! >>> Nobody gets forced into 'real' road racing, so they are all big boys who know the risks involved The glorification and foolish hero worship, the promotion of the event by the IOM, the televised coverage, surely help to lure some to participate. The same is true of places like Daytona. I can speak personally to that. You might also say that "no one gets forced into crack cocaine, so they are all big boys who know the risks involved." So let's make it popular and make money from events promoting it?  >>> The IOM tourist board ploughs millions into safety and hosting of the TT every year. The obviously need to do more, much, much more. Another four dead last year. Nine in 2005. "safety and hosting"? Uh yeah, "hosting". How much towards making the course a safe one? >>> I don't think there is any truth when it comes to doing dangerous things, just choice. Huh? Truth: 81 dead since 1990 directly due to racing at IOM. Truth: Racing at IOM is a LOT more dangerous than at Daytona or any other modestly racing-safe venue. Truth: The IOM course could be made a LOT less deadly. >>> Ultimately ALL motor racing is dangerous, as is most of life, so do we stop doing anything remotely harmful just in case? No, the idea is abhorrent to me. Also abhorrent is the promotion of a blood sport for profit by a government and their business partners. >>> It IS a religious-like act of faith whether one supports "True" road racing, or any activity with a higher level of risk. I think most folks adhere to their religious faith seeking truth, good, uplifting moral guidance and happiness in life. Choosing excessive risk for personal glory among piers or a thrill does not compare. In fact I'd say they are opposite. >>> We all know what's at stake ... we all know, they (racers) all know. I didn't know, and I supported and was a fan of the event for years. Let the event promoters make it crystal clear and see how many step up to sponsor or televise the event. Why not? "Watch the IOM racing where on average four die every year running into stone walls." "We have the best medical staff on hand to transport dead bodies to the morgue as efficiently as possible." >>> **Over the last 10 years, average skier/snowboarding deaths per year = 40.6 (and listings of death rates for other activities) 1st, the issue is not to prevent death, but the greedy exploitation of it and the attempt to hid the truth about the IOM events in favor of promoting it. 2nd, it is a logical fallacy that acceptance of one deadly problem is justified by the existence of others. Address them all if warranted. 3rd, raw numbers fail to provide context. Death rates as a percentage of participants is more meaningful. >>> Heck, you can make a pretty good argument that pro football is killing or incapacitating many men a very young age from repeated blows to the head. The violence is what sells pro football. It is glorified and pays everyone involved very well. 1st, I sure don't watch football because of the violence of risk of injury. 2nd, The IOM races being promoted don't come close to "paying everyone involved very well." 3rd, I'd like to learn about the "pretty good argument that pro football is killing or incapacitating many men a very young age from repeated blows to the head." >>> Anyways, I sent an e-mail to IOM letting them know I'd love to see a race here in the US. Would like to see a copy of that letter. I suspect no letter, just trolling. >>> It the Government of the Isle of Man was mostly concerned about money they would have canceled the thing long ago and concentrated on the industries that actually generate the vast majority of money in the local economy; off shore banking and internet gambling. Cancel the TT and kill the associated tourist industry? Tens of thousands spending, spending, spending? You really think that is not a concern? Did you not read the press release where all they talk about is increasing revenue and economic growth? I take them at their word on that regard. Internet gambling is another of their big economic endeavors? Then that speaks poorly of them as well. What an utterly unproductive, exploitative, miserable way to earn a living. >>> Blake has been on an anti TT crusade for a while, and like most crusades it won't be veered off course by logical argument unfortunately Right, like the one contending that the "safety standards at the IOM are the best in the racing world." Qustion: Why did the Grand Prix championship eliminate the venue from their schedule? >>> I get a shiver when I imagine the sound of 6 cylinders at 19,000 rpm...the wind rushing around the "pudding bowl" helmet and goggles...Iron men. While the athletic achievement is impressive. The risk is excessive. The real "iron men" in my view are those who go to work every day, day-in, day-out working hard, committed to earning a living for their families, not out seeking glory on a motorcycle excessively jeopardizing their lives for what in reality is next to meaningless in life's grand scheme. We really shouldn't admire daredevils. They are foolish. | ||
| Davegess |
All I can say is "Long Live the TT" I support it. Grand event. You don't support it than don't spend any money with them, Easy enough. | ||
| M1combat |
Would it make you happier if they used their extra income to purchase air fencing etc in order to make the course safer? I understand that you're a compassionate person Blake. I even donated to the air fence fund after the unfortunate accident involving Haskovek a couple years ago at (I seem to remember) your general request. I do appreciate your concerns. but the fact that the race at the IOM is so deadly and unsafe is why some like to race there (and cheerlead apparently...). It's their choice Blake. They don't race there because the race gets promoted and or organized. If there's more profit maybe there will be more safety. Maybe not... In any case... I think you should cease your cheer leading campaign against the IOM race.... apparently you're likely to suffer some horribly tragic death and/or injury due to it. That would be pretty ironic...  . | ||
| Davegess |
They have bought $100,000 dollars of air fence so far. Two med evac helicopters are on site for the races. Blake has not seen a really dangerous road race, the Irish lads consider the TT course one of the safer places they race at. You all should see the Munster 100. They run multiple bikes down a road between buildings that two small cars can't fit through. Of course us Irish consider prize fighting, hurling and Gaelic football civilized activities. Rugby is for sissies. If you can't be seriously hurt it is not a real sport. (Message edited by davegess on March 23, 2011) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Blake. Since when did profit over safety bother you? From your political posts, I get the exact opposite vibe. Profit at any and all cots seems to be the mantra of your political affiliation. As many have stated, no one is holding a gun to the competitors heads. | ||
| Pegasusrider |
Did I just get accused of trolling my own thread?  I didn't say anything negative about anyone's opinions. You did just read my letter. It was just a quick message to show support. Don't see what that's hard to believe. Took 60 seconds. (Message edited by PegasusRider on March 23, 2011) | ||
| Pegasusrider |
Now that I think about it, maybe I should accuse Blake of trolling my thread.  Blake - why not tell me what you think would be a safe and fun place for an event? (Message edited by PegasusRider on March 23, 2011) | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Shouldn't the IOM TT organizers/government and their business partners clearly disclose as part of efforts to increase revenues and economic growth that their ever more commercialized motorcycle road racing events have on average since 1990 claimed four lives per year?" Clearly they do. The information is not at all hard to find and is posted on placards and memorials all around the island. "Greg, >>> Killing the IOM has been Blake's pet project for some time now. Falsehood. I neither desire the "killing of the IOM (race)", nor is the issue my "pet project". I've invested all of a few hours on the issue in the past two years. It is a concern, not a project." I grew up on a farm. I was able to recognize steaming BS before the age of two. While you say you don't want to kill it, you certainly want to change it into something it isn't. That amounts to killing it. "I ask that you avoid this discussion if you cannot manage to stick to the issue rather than turn the discussion to me personally. Can you do that please?" The issue is expanding the IOM. You are clearly the one who is off topic. Despite what your ego may lead you to believe... it ain't all about you. Any more silly questions? G | ||
| Trojan |
That's a ludicrous analogy. Since when do gun manufacturers or anyone purchasing a gun not understand that guns are deadly weapons? Are gun manufacturers enticing people to participate, attend, or support events where people end up shot and killed every year? What kind of shooting range/event would exist in such a case? It wouldn't. So why does the IOM get a pass on their motorcycle events promotion aiming at increased revenues and economic growth? Since when did anyone racing at the TT not realise it was dangerous? Of course gun makers are enticing people to kill, why else would you make, advertise and sell a deadly weapon? How many people were killed by handguns in the US last year? It makes the TT look like a road safety seminar. Do you really think that gun manufacturers sell guns just to people who attend shooting ranges adn events? How many threads have there been just on this board about guns and which is the 'best' for self defence etc. Guns in the US especially are big big business and the makers know full well that not all of them will be used for safe organised events. The idea that anyone can by a handgun fills me with dread, but that is what you accept over there so that's that. You should be able to accept that other people like to race around public road race courses to get their kicks. At least they usually have just themselves to think about. Why not? We have these things called bulldozers. I reject the silly idea that the course cannot be made moderately racing safe. It may not be easy or possible all at once, but it darn sure is 100% doable. It just requires the will to do so and some investment. Have you ever been there? You can't bulldoze peoples houses, shops and businesses just for one week of the year! This is public road racing and the only reason people race there. If you were to make it into a sanitised close circuit with gravel traps and all the rest of the palava then they would just race elsewhere instead! The whole point of the TT is to race on those roads as they are! You also don't seem to be at all bothered about Irish road racing (which goes on all year!) or road racing in New Zealand or other countries, so why target just the TT? What about international rallying that takes place on public roads with absolutely NO spectator protection? How many have died being involved in rallying or Paris Daker style raids? Your whole argument about the TT is so slewed (especially the 'profiteering angle')that you obviously won't be persuaded against it, so it is pretty pointless to continue the argument really. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, >>> They have bought $100,000 dollars of air fence so far. To what effect? On average still four dead per year since 1990. Four dead last year. Air fence is not some kind of magic safety net; when walls are mere feet from the racing line, the addition of air fence can CAUSE a crash. Air fence works effectively as a soft barrier some distance from the racing line, not as enhanced curbing for the race course. That $100K is a pittance considering that air fence has been around for over a decade, thus they've invested less than $10K per year. Entirely unimpressive. But regardless, the issue for me is the commercialization and promotion of the event/venue by government no less while failing to inform that it kills on average four people every year, 81 dead since 1990, two of them spectators, one of them a marshal. Yay!? What a great event!? Really? Romanticizing death in a sporting event? I know you don't really feel that way. I think you just really like the festival and motorbikes. Danger of contusion, or a few broken bones, fine. That's most any competitive sport. Danger of running smack into a stone wall at high speed, not so much. If you ever work a corner at a race and have to deal with distraught family and friends while Care Flight are taking their loved one away, your perspective might change concerning the commercial promotion of racing at a ridiculously dangerous course like the IOM. Is the government of Ireland promoting such wildly dangerous racing too? Then we should also oppose them in that. Per islander Peter Shimmin, How can the death toll be justified? Money, I suppose, is the answer." Some figures...
Twenty million pounds equates to over $30,000,000 per year. Take away the commercialization and promotion by the IOM government and businesses, I have ZERO gripe. They could then race naked over tire puncture traps for all I care. Greg, Shouldn't the IOM TT organizers/government and their business partners clearly disclose as part of efforts to increase revenues and economic growth that their ever more commercialized motorcycle road racing events have on average since 1990 claimed four lives per year? >>> Clearly they do. The information is not at all hard to find and is posted on placards and memorials all around the island. You no read good, and have failed to address the question. Note the part where I stated "as part of efforts to increase revenues and economic growth." I've seen press releases and their web site. Nowhere to be found is any honest accounting of the toll that venue exacts on competitors, marshals, and spectators. They brush it under the rug. It's a little late once you are already on the island. LOL. The issue of contention for me is the commercialization and promotion of the event/venue especially while failing to inform that it kills on average four people every year, 81 dead since 1990. Take away the commercialization and promotion by the IOM government, I have ZERO gripe. They could then race naked over tire puncture traps for all I care. We don't allow for the advertisement of tobacco products on television here and we assign clear warnings on their packages. No one is holding a gun to the heads of smokers, why not let the tobacco companies advertise as they like? The IOM government should at a minimum provide full disclosure of the human cost of their precious race when promoting it to spur economic growth. Matt, >>> Your whole argument about the TT is so slewed (especially the 'profiteering angle')that you obviously won't be persuaded against it, so it is pretty pointless to continue the argument really. I'm merely quoting the IOM government. They are the ones touting efforts to increase revenue and economic growth through expansion and commercialization of the racing there. Why you blind yourself to that simple quotable fact is very odd. Mike (Pegasusrider), One without risk of running smack into a stone wall at high speed. One with a modicum of margin for error off the racing line. But again, the issue for me is the commercialization and promotion of the event/venue by government no less while failing to inform that it kills on average four people every year, 81 dead since 1990, two of them spectators, one of them a marshal. Again, take away the commercialization and promotion by the IOM government and businesses, I have ZERO gripe. They could then race naked over tire puncture traps for all I care. Some comments from an IOM Today article... The TT circuit is one of the IOM's biggest assets; it's already paid for unlike some of the contentious capital schemes put forward to increase tourism, and it's continual maintenance and improvement also benefits residents. I am not an economist but passenger survey figures released by the Department of Tourism show that 287,124 people visited the island in 2009 (including business & day visitors.) The IOM Steam Packet Company carried 31,500 visitors during the 2010 TT and 29,000 during the 2009 MGP; a total of over 60,000 i.e. over 21%. One of your top tourist attraction, the excellent Curraghs Wildlife Park gets approximately the same number in a year! By all means shun the TT if you wish, but please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater; without these visitors your economy must suffer; both directly in the tourism sector and indirectly ( Steam Packet will want to replace the lost revenue somehow for example). Road Racing is part of your heritage, be proud of it, it's a part of what makes you different from the rest of the not-so-United Kingdom. The above taken from http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/isle_of_man_tt_is_crazy_and_ought_to_be_banned_1_1747454 (Message edited by blake on March 24, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
>>> Have you ever been there? You can't bulldoze peoples houses, shops and businesses just for one week of the year! Why not? I think it's more like four weeks of the year in total, but neither here nor there. If the government there (the people) are going to promote the race in order to increase revenue and spur economic growth, then honor compels them to make the course less wildly lethal. Either make the course moderately safe, or stop promoting it. Simple. Another alternative would be mandatory speed limits through the most hazardous points, kind of like a pit lane limit. But then the spectators would be robbed and attendance would drop. | ||
| Blake |
The gun analogy is pure baloney. You're really reaching to the moon on that one. Is the IOM course being used to defend a person's life? | ||
| Blake |
Are gun manufacturers enticing people to participate, attend, expand, or support any events where people end up shot and killed every year? No, they are not. The government/people of the IOM are. Case closed. I win. You lose. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Blake |
| ||
| Firstbuell |
Isle of Man TT rules !! | ||
| Surveyor |
I've been to the IOM TT (once) and I'm here in Ireland the home of road racing. My background is short circuit racing but my attitude is 'to each his own'. I no longer attend road racing events - even the one with my late father's grave just the other side of the straw bale clad cemetery wall. I reckon racing a 200bhp rocket ship on poorly surfaced narrow (very) country roads is lunacy......but then so is smoking and much more people die from smoking each year. Its a question of personal choice if people want to risk racing the roads so be it, I wont be watching though, I've seen more than one too many big offs for it to be comfortable to watch, you guys don't even hear about some of the incidents. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Blake, I read extremely well thank you, up to 600 WPM with a 99+% retention rate. You however are lacking in even the most basic reasoning skills when it comes to this topic. While I do not read all of your endless blatherings, the ones I have read are only digging you farther into a hole. Bulldoze residences, roads, businesses and historical sites just to satisfy your over inflated sense of self righteousness? Poor reasoning skills indeed. G | ||
| Blake |
>>> just to satisfy your over inflated sense of self righteousness? Proof yet again of your inability to comprehend the written word and example #2 of your intention to turn the discussion personal rather than to the issue, my tolerance for which is about nil. | ||
| Blake |
The reason is to prevent further unwarranted tragedy, four dead per year on average, not any sense of self-righteousness. How dumb is that? | ||
| Trojan |
Are gun manufacturers enticing people to participate, attend, expand, or support any events where people end up shot and killed every year? They don't need to have organised events do they. So long as any Joe Bloggs in the street can buy a gun and ammunition that is tantamount to encouraging murder for profit. What else would you use a gun for? Decoration? The TT has suffered from people screaming for bans and speed restrictions for years. It won't happen. Riders already have a speed restriction device fitted, it's called the right hand and brain! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Case closed. I win. You lose. I've read through this thread the past few days and fail to see where it was any sort of contest going on. Truthfully if anyone has lost it is you, Blake. Cause youre on a 'stop people from making a dime off of the IOM' and that aint happening. It is terrible that people are killed doing this each year, but its no different from many other things. Test pilots. Other forms of motorcycle racing (last year two within a week or so) Smoking - PERFECT example. Its all about choice. These men want to do this and know that there is risk involved. I dont think IOM is profiting on their deaths, they are profiting on the race. Its a one of a kind event and known the world over. Are you going to boycot magazines which have articles on the subject? You should, cause they, too, are profiting on this race. I look forward to the upcoming replies, it has been entertaining. | ||
| Slaughter |
NOTHING has caused as much death as the spread of ideas without critical review. DEEPLY held beliefs kill more people than ANY THING except disease - witness Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. I say if the goal is to prevent death, let's stop believing strongly in anything. | ||
| Blake |
>>> So long as any Joe Bloggs in the street can buy a gun and ammunition that is tantamount to encouraging murder for profit. What else would you use a gun for? Decoration? That's just plain blinkered. What else besides murder do you purchase and use a gun for? Target practice, sport shooting, competition shooting, hunting, self-defense, and even revolution against an oppressive government. Any more questions? | ||
| Blake |
Owens, >>> Truthfully if anyone has lost it is you, Blake. Cause youre on a 'stop people from making a dime off of the IOM' and that aint happening. Start another topic if you wish to discus me personally. I'm not interested in the gossip and ad hominem. I've not said that no one should make a dime, that is a falsehood. You no read good. Try again. My statement is in bright red boldface. Tough to miss unless you're only determined to twist words and attack personally, which is unappreciated. Try sticking to the issue. | ||
| Blake |
Steve, >>> I say if the goal is to prevent death, let's stop believing strongly in anything. Do you believe strongly in that? D'OH! |
