| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
There is a point of diminishing returns. Anything MORE than four cylinders hasn't been terribly successful. Honda tried a five cylinder bike in MotoGP and had some success, but even they're using a four cylinder now. The last time Ducati flexed their muscle with the FIM and got a 25% displacement allowance, Honda and Suzuki responded by building their own 1000cc twins to level the playing field and ended Ducati's dominance. When the other factories were allowed to increase the displacement of their multis to match the 999, Ducati was still the dominant force but they whined they had too hard a time being competitive (despite Bayliss running away with the title). So next they lobbied for (and got) a concession to run 20% more displacement over the IL4s. The fact is, were it not for the phenomenal talent of one Ben Spies last year, they would've run away with the title AGAIN. This year, despite Max Biaggi claiming the World Title, Ducati is STILL in the running for the manufacturer's title. Does that SOUND like they need any more concessions than what they already have? The point is, you want to build a winning race bike, you build what WORKS. You don't build what you WANT and ask for all kinds of rules changes to give you a chance against other teams that actually did their homework. Ducati is acting like a bunch of spoiled brats who can't get their way, so they're taking their ball and going home. | ||
| Davegess |
I think any more thatn4 are outlawed. Just like the car guys, no more 12s or 16s. Honda ran sixes with great success back in the day. More is pretty much always better. | ||
| Davegess |
it would be a poison chalice to go into WSBK without a proper factory team I don' think you have to worry about that. I think Erik, while he will happily reach very high, will have a plan that involves running up front when and if he goes there. Obviously the first challenge will be making enough street bike to meet homoligation. Then he needs the money. Not going to predict that he will do it but I am certainly not betting against him pulling it off. | ||
| Jlnance |
BMW was able to divorce themselves from the air-cooled boxer to build a competitive Superbike, so Ducati should be able to as well. I guess it comes down to what you want racing to be, as it relates to the larger world. The inline 4 is a great race engine. You could argue (and I think you are) that if your race engine isn't as good as an inline 4, you should get off your ass and build and inline 4. There isn't anything wrong with that line of thought. But, an inline 4 isn't necessarily the best engine for a street bike. If you want to watch the bike you're riding on the street race, and you don't want to ride an inline 4 on the street, well then you're going to want some allowances in the rules for your non-inline 4 bike to be competitive. Beyond just wanting to watch your bike race, it's nice if racing encourages the manufactures to develop better street bikes. While BMWs inline 4 is a great machine in it's own right, their racing it isn't prompting any improvements to the boxer engine. That's a real shame because I don't think the world was in great need of yet another water cooled, inline 4. Their boxer engine on the other hand is one of the few high performance air cooled twins being actively developed. That the world would miss if it fell by the wayside. | ||
| Jaimec |
JInance, the boxer engine is raced in endurance-type events. Most people don't buy boxers because they want the quickest and fastest bike out there... they want reliability and that "friendly" boxer powerband. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Racing 2cyl 1200cc against 4cyl 1000cc with air restrictors and a 6kg extra weight is no cheating. When people will accept it ?? There were no rules favouring Ducati in the first place. Why so much negative thoughts against Ducati?? Ducati is actually risking for racing a V2 , instead of the V4 1000cc Desmosedici. I totally agree with Ducati and I am glad they are racing their V2. It wasn't the Ducati 1098R that won the title in 2008 , it was Bayliss. WSBK is about the rider. Ducati is leaving WSBK because they want to support their motoGP efford with Rossi 100%. Everybody knows that the 1098R is the best handling bike in WSBK, it is obvious even from the TV screen. Just ask Checa , he would not change his 1098R for any other bike , even if he had to race the Duc for free !!! Give the 2cyl 1200cc bikes a chance to race the IL4s !!!!! | ||
| Jaimec |
Vagelis: Ducati is still in the running for the manufacturers title this year. Taking Ben Spies out of the equation last year, Ducati DOMINATED the series. How is the bike uncompetitive with the current regulations? They're a bunch of whiney crybabies who are quitting because FIM isn't bowing and scraping to them as they have in years past. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Ducati dominated because the 1198R is the best package in WSBK. Rossi and their motoGP program is the real reason there isn't going to be a WSBK factory team next year. All the teams in WSBK complained for the cam gears of the Aprilia, not just Ducati. | ||
| Jaimec |
You've just confirmed my point. Ducati backed out because they claimed they couldn't be competitive. There is absolutely NO proof of this, it is one of the most successful bikes in WSBK since it was introduced. Ducati won't be paying Rossi's salary... MARLBORO will be. It has been reported in many sites that Ducati is the ONLY factory who's racing efforts are almost COMPLETELY covered by their sponsors. Rossi himself will likely attract even MORE sponsors to the Ducati MotoGP effort. Xerox was paying the lion's share of Ducati's WSBK expenses as well. And besides Biaggi, who on an Aprilia was consistently racing at the front? Camier did okay in a couple of races but not NEARLY as often or consistently as Max. Smrz certainly hasn't distinguished himself since he switched to the satellite Aprilia. (Message edited by jaimec on September 30, 2010) | ||
| 46champ |
Maybe Xerox needs to sponsor an American bike. | ||
| Trojan |
The point is, you want to build a winning race bike, you build what WORKS. You don't build what you WANT and ask for all kinds of rules changes to give you a chance against other teams that actually did their homework. Ducati is acting like a bunch of spoiled brats who can't get their way, so they're taking their ball and going home. I couldn't agree more  Ducati have never been shy in asking (demanding) rule changes to suit their bikes, but when the shoe is on the other foot they cry and scream louder than anyone else. Superbike racing is about taking your street bike (whatever the layout of the cylinders) and making it into a world beating racer. If it means that you current street bike doesn't cut it then you do what BMW, Aprilia, Kawasaki and Ducati have done in the past and you build a race bike with lights specifically to go and win at WSBK. Simple. If your twin cylinder bike can't be competitive (and there is little eveidence that the 1098/1198 is no longer competitive) then you go back to the drawing board and design something that is, or you don't race at WSBK. There are plenty of 'lesser' race series for other bikes to race in after all. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I just cannot imagine the world with no V2 sportbikes. So I am glad Ducati , is following their tradition , and they build V2 sportbikes. Their 1098R is a racing bike with lights , and is the best one out there. I am also glad that Aprilia chose to be original and they built a V4, to seperate themselves from the rest . Honda should have done it years ago , but they chose the "managers&accountants" proposal and they went IL4. That is what seperates Ducati from the rest. They chose their tradition , instead of copying the others . And we should be gratefull for that . I think that one of the reasons Ducati went to 1200cc , was that to produce and sell a motorcycle to the riders that had a Hp figure close to IL4s . Because 95% of riders buy sportbikes based on Hp. And a motorcycle company needs sales to survive. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So far, 4cyls are doing much better that 2cyls in France. This might silence those crying about rules favouring Ducati. New weight limit for next year , 2cyls and 4cyls have the same minimum of 165kg. Also same weight 4cyl and 3cyl for Supersport class of 161kg. | ||
| Jaimec |
Crutchlow on the pole, but can he convert that to a win? Haga and Checa have already proven that where they start on the grid has little bearing on where they end up at the end. And remember, before Superpole, the Ducati riders were dominating the practice sessions... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Great race 1!!!! Biaggi got a nice lesson from Haslam . Listening to interviews from Crutchlow and Haslam and Checa , it is obvious that everybody in WSBK are upset with the "unfair" advantage in power Biaggi has from his Aprilia. I hope FIM next year stops Aprilia from using the cam driven gears. | ||
| Simond |
Already sorted but don't expect Aprilia to be down on power as a result! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Is it true ?? Please verify. FIM announced that there will not be cam driven gears for the Aprilia next year ?? Good news . Crutclow in his interview after race 2 , said it was impossible to pass Biaggi , and asked FIM to do something about it . I am glad Haslam showed to the world in race 2 , how it is possible to avoid a rider that have just crashed in front of you and is left lying on the track. He immidiatelly took action, picked the bike up and run off track, basicaly finishing his race 2 . Would deAngelis and Redding have decided to basically finish their race and run off track to avoid poor Toseland ?? Or, since they are hangry for success, they would have decided stay on track, keep their line and hope for the best, trying not to loose a 0,1s, Based on the crap stated on this forum by "experts".... "when you race on that level you do not watch in front of you but the corner ahead " , so Toseland would have been injured or even dead , Haslam would have crashed , but it would be OK , because it is racing. I just hope now that everybody sees my point....some people are ready to risk too much in order to win.. Leon Haslam is definately my WSBK hero. He also gave Biaggi a last corner pass to remember for next year. Crutclow showed why he was chosen for motoGP. His corner entry was amazing. | ||
| Trojan |
Would deAngelis and Redding have decided to basically finish their race and run off track to avoid poor Toseland ?? Your comments in this vein are getting more than boring. Nobody else in the world (including everyone who is a lot closer and more involved in racing than you are) seems to think like you do and suspect that either De Angelis or Scott Redding could have avoided poor Tomizawa, so why do you persist in this ridiculous theory?. Haslam missed Toseland through pure luck more than jusdgement, nothing more. He had more time to react than Redding or De Angelis had adn was not in the middle of a flat out 5th gear corner like they were, but Toseland could quite easily have rolled the other way or bounced into Haslam's path and he would have been hit hard. Would your argument then change and call Haslam a murderer rather than a hero? NOBODY in racing deliberately runs over another rider. Period. To suggest otherwise is ill informed, ignorant and insulting to all concerned, including Tomizawa. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Your comments in this vein are getting more than boring. " Sorry that my comments make you feel bored.  | ||
| Blake |
Less boring, more just plain idiotic. Crutchlow wants FIM to slow the competition???  Lame doesn't begin to describe that. Get on your motorbike and race or get off the track. | ||
| Davegess |
46, you are just plain wrong on this. It is sorta like the horrible crash that took Robert Dunlop; no time to do anything. I suspect they didn't even realize he was there until they hit him. Let it go. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Crutchlow wants FIM to slow the competition??? " No he doesn't , all the WSBK world would like "not legal" parts to stop being used by Aprilia , after FIM changes the rules. You seem misinformed. Just watch any WSBK race and you will see what everybody is talking about. | ||
| Trojan |
Crutchlow wants FIM to slow the competition??? No, he is just voicing the same concerns as everyone else at the moment regarding the 'cheating' by Aprilia withtheir cam drive system. The organisers need to get a grip of it before the class becomes just another thinly veiled prototype series. His comments only echo what Ducati and other teams have been saying all season. Crutchlow is an out and out racer, so he will race anything he is given. He is also quite outspoken and unlike some racers these days isn't too corporate to voice his opinion, which is a good thing in my view | ||
| Simond |
He's "corporate" enough to shove a can of Monster in front of any camera available though  ! Leon Camier suggested that the gear driven cams were worth about 3bhp. It has to be said that the Aprilia was no slouch without them. Haga on the Aprilia looks interesting for next year. Toseland on a private "factory backed" (whatever that means) BMW and Haslam on the works bike sounds good too. I was shocked to hear Paul Bird's comments about Tom Sykes baulking at a third Kawasaki ride. I know the money will be poor but with Vermulen/Lascorz on the works bike it has got to be a better bet than a return to BSB. (Message edited by SimonD on October 06, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
So Aprilia has a faster machine, one approved by the rules-makers, and people are whining about it? Employing gear driven cams is high tech cheating? Who knew our Buell motorcycles were so advanced? Someone please explain how a gear drive produces significantly more HP than a chain drive. I'm not seeing it. The Aprilia has been very fast right from the start, yes? | ||
| Jaimec |
On an overhead cam engine, I believe there are less frictional losses with a gear drive than a chain drive cam. All other things being equal. It doesn't produce more horsepower, it just wastes less. | ||
| Blake |
You "believe"? You may be right, but Is it "significant"? I don't see it. Why do you state "overhead cams"; something changes the physics of cam drivetrains when pushrods are employed? I noted that some contributors to this discussion have been referring to the Aprilia SBK engine technology as "cam driven gears." Now THAT might be something. LOL | ||
| Simond |
I think the main advantage is that it is more accurate (less slop) so allows closer tolerance between piston and valve. There was also a suggestion that longevity is improved - presumably because a chain would start to stretch earlier than the cams would wear. As I said, though, the Aprilia certainly appeared to be the most powerful bike even before the switch to gear driven cams. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
WSBK should move towards racing bikes identical to production motorcycles that are reasonably priced......For sure , the Aprilia does not move in that direction with "special" kits. | ||
| Trojan |
Someone please explain how a gear drive produces significantly more HP than a chain drive. I'm not seeing it. The extra power (if there is any) isn't the point of the cheating allegations. The initial point was that the bike is available to buy with chain driven cams ONLY and that is how it was homologated with the FIM for Superbike racing. Aprilia developed and introduced their gear driven cams without producing a 'kit' that could be bought through franchised dealers so that is absolutley contrary to WSB rules and should have been banned straight away. The organisers didn't want to upset Aprilia so they fudged the issue and allowed them to use the new cam drive later in the year but without any evidence that they had produced a 'customer kit' to comply with the leter of the rules. Whether they produce more power in themselves is debatable, but I'll bet they allow higher revs to produce more power or some other spin off benefit, otherwise why do it? The door is now open for another factory to make some unobtanium parts and say that they will be available as a 'customer' kit at some point where in fact they could be pure prototype parts (or cost zillions so that nobody can afford them anyway). This is not only contrary to the rules and the spirit of the rules but will increase costs significantly, which is what the series is supposed to be trying to avoid. I was shocked to hear Paul Bird's comments about Tom Sykes baulking at a third Kawasaki ride. I know the money will be poor but with Vermulen/Lascorz on the works bike it has got to be a better bet than a return to BSB. Paul Bird never beats around the bush with his comments! I think he was upset that Tom didn't drop to his knees and thank Birdie straight away for his offer, but Sykes also had other WSB offers to weigh up before signing again for PBM. It is also still unclear exactly where Tom will fit into the Kawasaki setup next year. If he has a third factory bike in the Paul Bird run team it is a great offer, but if he is in the Pedercini team it could be a poor substitute after the hard work and good results he has put in for Kawasaki this year. Apparently he has now signed so we'll find out soon enough where he fits into the organisation. |
