| Author | Message | ||
     Fast2win |
If you do not produce zee motorzicle you canot race zee bike how can race zee bike if you do not produce zee motozicle. Now shutz up and go race zee bike vink, vink | ||
| Diablo1 |
Wait, but BMW already raced a whole season?! What about the 2000 they needed to produce. Oh, that's right, BMW is such a small poor company they needed a break. So of course, that's not rule bending, just bad, bad Buell... You obviously can't read. They need to produce 1000 by the end of the year. This has nothing to do with Buell, it's about WSBK. If Buell wants to race in WSBK, they better read the rules first and figure out how many streetbikes they have to produce and by what date. Carping about how the rules aren't fair to Buell isn't going to do any good.} | ||
| Davegess |
And if they don't produce the bikes by 12/31/2009 does all the exposure on the TV and all race laps just disapear? | ||
| Court |
>>>They need to produce 1000 by the end of the year Have they produced the 1,000 bikes? Seems really WEIRD, irrespective of the rules for a moment, to race a "stock" bike all year based on the "we intend to produce it" basis. If it has blown chow (did it do any good, I've never ever heard of it?) would they have simply viewed the race effort as R&D and scraped it? If I submitted a paper based on research I intended to do . . . my ass would be out of school in a heartbeat. It's not really, looking at what BMW did, "rule bending" . . it's outright dishonest. Tell me more. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Have they produced the 1,000 bikes? I don't know, I don't work for BMW. They've built hundreds already, if not the 1,000 required. Take a look at this photo of the production line back in February and the row of bikes. http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-news/2009/b mw-s-1000-rr-production.htm } } | ||
| Madduck |
Interesting rumour has huge price breaks coming for the BMW to get some of the required models sold. Most dealers are not interested in supporting the race program by flooring units that aren't selling well. Think Harley had trouble selling Buells, how well will the touring crowd at BMW support an ollout sprtbike?? Time will tell but I doubt the wisdom of this decision. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Interesting rumour has huge price breaks coming for the BMW to get some of the required models sold. Most dealers are not interested in supporting the race program by flooring units that aren't selling well. Think Harley had trouble selling Buells, how well will the touring crowd at BMW support an ollout sprtbike?? Time will tell but I doubt the wisdom of this decision. We'll see, but my guess is that BMW won't have trouble selling these bikes. Their target is sportbike riders not BMW fuddy-duddys. They want to sell these bikes to Yam, Suz, Honda, Kaw riders. They think they can get 10% of the sportbike market. The bike is only a little more expensive than the Japanese literbikes, but the only problem is the wierd-Alice looks.} | ||
| Jaimec |
Aprilia is in the same boat, ya know. And with the price they're asking, I doubt they'll sell as many as BMW. BMW has a more extensive dealership network than Aprilia, has much better parts availability and the bike is THOUSANDS less. And contrary to the Harley/Buell situation... BMW dealerships ARE familiar with sport bikes and racing. They've had Battle of the Legends specials and now the HP2 series of bikes on the floor alongside the tourers and sport tourers. They even have a line of dirt bikes. BMW hasn't been a "One Song Band" for at least the past ten years. Can't say the same for Harley. | ||
| Mndwgz |
>>>>>BMW dealerships ARE familiar with sport bikes and racing. They've had Battle of the Legends specials and now the HP2 series of bikes on the floor alongside the tourers and sport tourers. They even have a line of dirt bikes. BMW hasn't been a "One Song Band" for at least the past ten years. +35 years R90/S | ||
| Diablo1 |
Aprilia is in the same boat, ya know. And with the price they're asking, I doubt they'll sell as many as BMW. BMW has a more extensive dealership network than Aprilia, has much better parts availability and the bike is THOUSANDS less. I agree with you that the BMW will likely outsell the Aprilia, simply based on pricing. However, Aprilia has already sold 1,000 RSV4-Factory bikes worldwide at $21K. They've just released the less expensive RSV4 at $16K. Even in this crappy economy, I haven't heard of any deal under MSRP.} | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Why don't you come to Homecoming 2010 and when we go to Eriks' new shop, you can make your points directly to him and tell him what he did wrong and how the racing world bent over backwards for BUELL and only BUELL. That's www.buellhomecoming.com BE THERE,THERE,THERE,THERE,THERE, | ||
| Neb25 |
Holly cow! I got on this thread to learn about Eric Buell Racing(which is what the thread is called) because I need to figure some things out for next season and I see you jags going off about WSBK? Are you kidding me? He only raced 2 rounds of AMA Superbike and you assholes are arguing about WSBK. Like a bunch of women you guys will argue about anything. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Why don't you come to Homecoming 2010 and when we go to Eriks' new shop, you can make your points directly to him and tell him what he did wrong Didn't HD just finish laying that message on Erik? Where did he go wrong...by going to work for HD.} | ||
| Rocketman |
The S1000RR received rave reviews in MCN last week, and it will sell every one allocated to the UK no doubt. As for the 1098, the Buildbase bike ran in BSB not WSB first, and under a set of rules put in place to determine its fairness to compete, and scrutinised by WSB so as to establish its fairness in its first season in WSB. Those rules were added weight if necessary per three race and race increment as the season progressed if it were obvious its performance overshadowed the 4 cylinder opposition. As it turned out, the rules favoured the 4's in the long run and the Ducati was not the dominant force with an unfair advantage some would have us believe. One thing is certain though. This has nothing to do with Buell as they've never tried to compete in SBK so I don't understand why Diablo's articulate explanations are questioned by some. His comments were bang on correct to the rule book as I understand them. Of course, I'm no rule book expert anymore than the next man. Rocket | ||
| Court |
>>>>>They've built hundreds already, if not the 1,000 required. Let me guess . . . there is a "double secret best effort codicil" that allows them to "sell or at least try thier damned best". If they sell 990 . . . would you allow the results of the PRIOR year to stand? Yes: ________ No: ________ By best is that Rocket is correct. I'l bet it's a hell of a bike and that they sell, they are in thier last month, every one of them in the UK. They need to sell 1,000. How many, just seeing if we have ANY FACTS here at all or if we're going to continue to debate opinions, are allocated to the United Kingdom? You see . . . if we had about 2 or 3 numbers . . . . there's really be nothing to debate and we'd all be swilling beer. It's a dichotomy. They MEET the rules or they DON'T MEET the rules. It's simple construction worker logic really . . . .  | ||
| 186bigtwin |
What ever.......... I'd still like to see one of these 1190cc Buells with max effort everything race somewhere........... | ||
| Diablo1 |
By best is that Rocket is correct. I'l bet it's a hell of a bike and that they sell, they are in thier last month, every one of them in the UK. They need to sell 1,000. No, they don't have to sell 1,000 by Dec. 30, 2009. They have to manufacture 1,000 by Dec. 30, 2009. I have no idea what penalties are in place if for some reason they don't make the 1,000 bikes by the deadline. I'm sure, by hook or by crook, BMW will figure a way to produce the required number.} | ||
| J2blue |
Gads, I haven't seen my formal logic book since the early eighties! | ||
| Rocketman |
It's not an easy assumption that production targets will be met. There are in the equation, different targets dependent on the company's known production output. Remember the Petronas fiasco? Those 50 bikes were made, and photographed, and on the odd occasion shown at shows. My friend even witnessed one circulating the Malaysian Sepang circuit in the hands of Carl Fogarty. All they had do was build 50 road versions, which they did, and sell to the public. Not one was ever sold. Allegedly all 50 were crushed a year or so ago. I don't believe the rule is dependent on whether the bikes are all sold. The intention is to manufacture, and sales target dates set, but tolerance is given, or built in, as there can be no guarantees that sales can be as concrete as production. The rule is not to prevent a manufacturer getting to the grid. They are made with the best intention of a relative to production numbers parity to ensure streetbikes and not a bunch of one off exotic road registered racing specials are raced. I suppose what would be fair is Buell would be allowed as much tolerance as any other manufacturer, but there really is no point in arguing the numbers to a finite degree if you really want to see a wider participation of manufacturers. I might be wrong of course. This is just my understanding and interpretation and could be way off. It's not something I study. Rather just pick up on from time to time. Don't shoot the messenger. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
MCN 18th Nov. BMW vice president of bikes said they had to reach 100 S1000RR's through Dec 08 / Jan 09 for homologation. They built a further 300 bikes which they gave to BMW employees to ride into the ground this year. All were assessed and recycled after a million kilometers racked up between them. MCN state 193hp. Headline says it shakes up the superbike class, it's a rocketship with incredible power and gyroscopic traction control. Chief tester Franklin said it's the first time he's seen 174mph at the end of the Portimano straight. They say "it's as fast as a Fireblade but more polished! Amazing, brilliant". Rocket | ||
| Fast2win |
And there we have it at the end of the day even the holy wsbk rules are allowed to bend to allow such bikes on the grid even if they dont' hit production figures to the tee. I doubt the rsv1000 hit the figures or ktm could with an rc8r .Bmw won't have a 1000 built. I'm still glad to see them race. | ||
| Dentguy |
He only raced 2 rounds of AMA Superbike and you assholes are arguing about WSBK. Hey Neb25, No need for that kind of name calling here. Maybe you should go read the Terms of Use. | ||
| Rocketman |
Fast2, I'm not seeing where the rules are bent. WSB keep a close scrutiny on the production numbers. Be they proposed or actual. My understanding is, proposed numbers are backed up by initial smaller runs, with targets set for an overall minimum at whatever target date. Such is to ensure that lower volume manufacturers are not excluded, or better may be, DISADVANTAGED by the might of the MASS production manufacturers who have no problem what so ever reaching production volume. It's not rule bending. It's a scale which allows the sport to excel for all, in particular for the spectator as they're the ones paying. It is after all an entertainment business that is meant to generate money in order for its owners to make profit and thus the business model survive. If it were as unfair as some would suggest, I'm pretty sure the big players would cry foul and leave for other series, making one less popular and another more respectable. That would lose the public's interest and the organisers money, and it would not be one of the two most popular motorcycle race series in the world. But it is not that. It is a well balanced series watched by millions worldwide every season because they don't see it as unfair but rather they see it as aspirational to what they can buy off the showroom floor. And many do. Buy that is. Rocket | ||
| Fast2win |
I have never seen such scale but if BMW claims they only needed to build 100 what happened to the 1000. Either way I have no problem with the scale or bending what ever you want to call it. Because everything else you said is true. They want fan's. And the smaller manufacture's need to be able to hit realistic #'s, to make the bike in question avail. to the public. | ||
| Diablo1 |
I have never seen such scale but if BMW claims they only needed to build 100 what happened to the 1000. 100 bikes had to be built in January 2009. 1000 bikes have to be built before December 30, 2009. No rules bending there. You keep talking about making rules to allow smaller manufacturers to compete. Name one smaller manufacturer that would like to compete, can afford to compete, has a bike ready or under development, but would like the rules modified so they don't have to build 2000 production bikes next year. Are they a smaller manufacturer than KTM, Aprilia, or Ducati?} | ||
| Fast2win |
They had better hurry up. Although I would think it doesn't matter now. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Hey on the parts list for EBR he shows a programable ECU, has anyone dealt with this unit? Is it going to be as easy as say a power commander? I will be putting a pipe and a download in my bike when I have determined which one I want, Jardine is the front runner, but if the ECU is fully mappable that would be even better I would think. No pricing yet available.....hmmm...anyone?? | ||
| Slaughter |
That programmable module IS the RACE MODULE - FULLY PROGRAMMABLE. Fuel, ignition, limits, ALL ASPECTS of engine control. NOT as easy as Power Commander, but CAN BE explained. The totally COOL thing for us racers is that we ALL used the SAME program and that meant that we could email or even hook up with one of the Buell staff right at the track to get "suggested" tuning changes. IF EBR can sell the TRUE race module, you're gonna be golden BUT you really need to do your homework because you CAN defeat the engine safety limits if you're not careful. You STILL need to get to a dyno or get a data acquisition system. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
IF EBR can sell the TRUE race module, you're gonna be golden BUT you really need to do your homework because you CAN defeat the engine safety limits if you're not careful. You STILL need to get to a dyno or get a data acquisition system. I have friend that owns a speed shop and one of his guys used to work with me at HD, is a Buell certified tech and they have a great dyno, they will build the map for $300 so as long as I get the right tuning information I can have it installed no problem. Then it is just a matter of getting the right tune with the right pipe. What pipe do you run? I like the sound of the Jardine, as I have heard the D&D pipe and it is just way to loud for what I want, the FMF seems to be a bit better as they offer some silencer's of some sort. I don't want a bike so loud and obnoxious that I cannot ride it in my neighborhood without waking everyone or pissing them off. My neighbor's are already pretty tolerant of late night arrivals on my bikes as it is. | ||
| Slaughter |
I run the Beson pipe, short stroke/big bore (1169cc), 585 cams, 1.9 valve set. 2mm overbored XB12 throttle body... so it really needed some "homework" IF you can get a usable map for $300 - it truly IS worth it. Developing a map from scratch was almost 2 days on the dyno with a lot of head scratching. If I didn't get dyno time for free, I'd have had to seriously consider a more stock motor. |
