| Author | Message | ||
     Liquorwhere |
There would be no point to that. Nor would it be possible to sell a kitted bike with a street title due to all of the DOT regulations. Also, there isn't anybody that would want to convert this bike back to street, and it would only increase the cost if it was in fact possible. Then there would be warranty issues as well. All correct, I am not arguing that, but the point is IT WASN'T LEGAL. I love Buells, I loved the look of the RR, I own a new 1125R and love the bike, loved my XB, still love my X1, but the fact is that regardless of whether or not Edmundson forced the building of this bike, it wasn't legal, and that is a shame, because I think an R with the kit homologated would have been very competitive in ASK all year. Homologate the parts this year, sell the kit and race I say, hopefully someone will watch it. I won't, but I won't hate on any victories either. I wish instead of being bummed over a company shut down, we were toasting the first American Sportbike in WSBK, but we are not and that is a shame as well. | ||
| Blake |
It's legal because the authorities approved it for the series. It absolutely is a street bike based machine. To claim otherwise is false. The 1125R is the basis for the 1125RR. Diablo1, Seems to me that for Honda or Ducati, the 2000 number makes sense. For Buell or MV Augusta not so much. They should be able to produce a couple hundred and be approved. But the bigger factories don't want it. What a shame. Will be interesting to see if I can go to any showroom and purchase the Superbike that the Ducati teams end up racing next year. | ||
| Blake |
The whole 1125RR issue is akin to a referee or judge making a controversial call. The rules of the game weren't changed; it's just that some happen to disagree with the call by the officials. Get over it. When warranted, professional racing organizations will routinely give special consideration to specific competitors, especially when doing so makes the racing more interesting and more competitive. | ||
| Fast2win |
Are you saying, that because Buell built the bike with all the kit parts to make it a superbike, makes it illegal? The only legit gripe is that the parts came late,and AMA made Buell build the whole bike. Hardly an advantage from a technical standpoint. The semantics seem to be from the ones who dont think its legal. A title come on how does that make the bike faster. A manufacture would not title that bike. and if other manufactures built race prepped bike they would not either. If your gonna complain say the parts were too late or race next year but whats the point. Bending over backwards is hardly what they have done. The bottom line is from a technical standpoint it had no advantage. | ||
| Anonymous |
Fact is the 1125RR was legal or it wouldn't have been allowed to race. The AMA writes the rules for the class. The AMA decided Buell had to install the kit at the factory, because they thought that would make it more reasonable and easy for the privateers than having to put on a kit. That meant that by Federal OE manufacturing rules it couldn't be shipped out of Buell as a stock bike, so we had to call it a new model. If some Italian company did that, everyone would be all giggly about how cool that all was. And where is the unfair advantage in allowing a bike that is a kitted 1125R in a class when it was cheaper than a competitive Ducati, available to buy, and had less displacemnent, smaller valves, less trick parts than a 1098R? This is pure Buell hate, no matter what you say about liking the bikes. Either you really hate Buell, or you are poisoned by the haters and your thinking is clouded. Once again, the 1125RR is a kitted 1125R, as looking at one or reading the specs would tell you. It was no GP bike or anything like that. Remember when Mladin complimented the 1125RR on how well it handled in New Jersey, saying all it needed was equal power to beat the factory Japanese bikes badly? Well, this was an 1125R frame with fuel, a ZTL2 brake, a final drive with a chassis mounted idler, split radiators, underslung mufflers, - all the "weird" stuff that Buell uses. And it worked. Why the hate? I mean, we were hated by H-D itself and H-D riders, and hated by American import riders, when all we were was a handful of guys trying to make a great sportbike. We got pretty damned far too. A hell of a lot further than anyone else. The only technical advantage it had was the same parts that are on every Buell 1125, and many on the XB's. "Weird front brakes with no advantage", "Fuel in frame does nothing"? Well anyone who watched at New Jersey knows differently. How the hell do people think Cory and Taylor were able to give ex-world champions on works bikes fits on our bikes that were dramatically down on power on the straights? Oh, I forgot, we're not talking about people who are thinking. And we're not talking about people who actually went to the races and watched. Just a mob of bashers. OK, rant over and company over too. A double win for the morons. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Seems to me that for Honda or Ducati, the 2000 number makes sense. For Buell or MV Augusta not so much. They should be able to produce a couple hundred and be approved. But the bigger factories don't want it. What a shame. It seems you're mad at the organizers of WSBK for running a series based on production bikes that everyone can buy. Buell and MV Agusta are 100% owned by HD. And HD is a far larger company than Ducati. HD chose not to fund a WSBK effort. Don't you think that HD can afford to build the 2000 bikes/year for homologation? } | ||
| Blake |
It seems I'm "mad"? More disappointed. If all you want to see racing are the biggest factories then I guess you'll be all for the 2000 bike requirement. I'm not. I'd rather see a more inclusive series, not one rigged for only the biggest factories. Buell would have got there, no doubt, but they weren't there yet. Harley just killed Buell. WTF are you talking about, HD finance Buell racing in WSBK? The bitter little pricks there saw to it that would never happen. (Message edited by blake on December 02, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
I'm with Anony. What the heck is wrong with some of you people, especially the Americans? | ||
| Anonymous |
The GD'd 1125RR IS based on a streetbike!! This is such BS. It was a hell of a lot closer to a production 1125R than the bikes running in WSBK are to their "street versions". AND Buell WAS NOT H-D!!!! How many of you still don't get that after the past six weeks! We kept telling everyone we were on our own and struggling, but no one would believe it. Believe it now. | ||
| Backcountryme |
Right on Anony. You told it how it was. To bad it is a was. | ||
| Elvis |
Here's the way I see it. FIM and AMA both have Superbike series based on production motorcycles. The FIM completely threw their own rules out the window in 2009 when they allowed the S1000R and RSV4 to compete for the entire season even though neither BMW nor Aprilia had production bikes that even vaguely resembled the race bikes. The AMA, on the other hand, allowed a bike with higher performance pistons and a larger airbox compete for two races (based on my interpretation of the Superbike rules and the technical details of the roadracing world article, I'd say those are probably the key exceptions made for the 1125RR). By any rational, logical, objective interpretation, FIM's breaking of their own rules was far more dramatic and profound than the AMA's breaking of their rules. . . . but we're not dealing with rational, logical, objective interpretations. We're dealing with people who HATE the DMG and love FIM, so they excuse all actions by FIM and complain about all actions of the AMA. In reality, we should be applauding BOTH organizations. These are the kind of actions that need to be taken in racing to allow different configurations and brands get involved so that we don't see the top brands maintain a stranglehold on racing. I would much rather see creative manipulation of the rules by race organizations to allow more consumer choice and more interesting racing than draconion and unyeilding interpretation of rules that are abritrary to start with. | ||
| Trojan |
This is pure Buell hate, no matter what you say about liking the bikes. Either you really hate Buell, or you are poisoned by the haters and your thinking is clouded. Surprise surprise, if you disagree with Buell then you are automatically a Buell hater. I wondered how long it would take for this attitude to surface. Utter Nonsense! I disagree with Honda too but I'm no more a Honda hater either. The whole point that I am making is nothing to do with Buell really, but is to do with the race organisers sticking to their own rule book and procedures for the duration of the season. Blake says that the rules didn't change, but they just homologated an extra bike mid season. That would hold water if the bike was within the letter of the rules, but it wasn't. if the 1125RR is juts a modifed 1125R then sell a race kit like Yamaha, Honda and even Ducati do. If it isn't possible to modify the bike in your garage with a race kit then it isn't legal is it? The fact that teh 1125RR can't be built as a road bike at all must tell you something? If you have a set of rules that states that bikes MUST be purchased as road legal street bikes and then modifed to race spec, then they are the rules that MUST stand. The statement that DMG insisted on the 1125RR being sold as a complete bike as it would make racing 'more accessible' for competitors would also hold more water if other manufactures were given the same opportunity at the same time to produce a 'special' race version of their road superbikes. They were not, so the organisers made a rod for their own backs and opened themselves to all sorts of accusations by allowing just Buell to do so. If you want to introduce something else then change the rules at the correct time and place to suit ALL competitors and after the relevant discussions have taken place, not mid season and with no consultation. Comparing WSB rules and procedures against AMA SB rules is pointless, because the rules are different. BMW and others have been allowed to race 'pre production' bikes over the years because they have had to prove to the organisers that they have built the required number of base bikes first. The rules don't state that they have to be on sale to the public before the season starts. There have been occasions when WSB bikes have competed under 'special conditions' but these have all been agreed pre-season (Foggy Petronas & Benelli spring to mind). As for the Ducati question, that is a matter for WSB bosses/teams to look at and haas nothing to do with DMG/AMA. Suffice to say that the Ducati is within WSB rules and homologation or it wouldn't race. If WSb suddenly allowed Ducati to race a 1350cc bike mid season it would be another matter entirely. My argument is NOT against the premise of the 1125RR and I have nothing aginst the bike or the company at all, in fact I would love to see the bike win at Superbike level. My argument is about poor organisation and handling of the rules by DMG that has left the whole series looking decidedly shabby. The 1125RR is what it is, a race bike. I could not purchase one and race it in ANY production series worldwide except in DMG/AMA, and we are not likely to see any racing in other Superbike series because of that. Offering the 1125RR parts as a kit instead of having to buy the whole bike would have opened up a world of opportunity (literally) for Buell racers to compete outside of the confines of AMA/DMG sanctioned competition and in superbike series worldwide , but that seems to have escaped the people behind the decisions. | ||
| Diablo1 |
The FIM completely threw their own rules out the window in 2009 when they allowed the S1000R and RSV4 to compete for the entire season even though neither BMW nor Aprilia had production bikes that even vaguely resembled the race bikes. Simply not true. You didn't read the rules that were in place before the start of the 2009 race season. These rules were changed before the season, and not during the racing season, and they weren't modified at all during the season. The rules allowed any new manufacturer to homologate a bike while they raced it during the season. They had to meet a specific production schedule. The end of December is the deadline for producing 1000 production bikes. The BMW hasn't hit the street yet, but I'm sure they have close to 1000 bikes built already. Aprilia has built and sold 1000 RSV4 bikes. Don't blame WSBK for Buell choosing the wrong parent company - HD. Maybe things would have turned out differently if they were owned by Piaggio or Suzuki or any other company.} | ||
| Liquorwhere |
This is pure Buell hate, no matter what you say about liking the bikes. Either you really hate Buell, or you are poisoned by the haters and your thinking is clouded. I don't know who you are, as you either cannot or will not post under your name, but you don't know me and my passionate love of Buell's. So for you to write that it is Buell hate is BS. DMG hate, yes, Buell hate no. My thinking is not clouded, it is clear and the fact that I as a Buell owner, supporter and for over a year seller of the product can point out that DMG forced the build of a bike that was not in line with their own rule book doesn't make me a hater of the brand. If I hated it so much why have I purchased FOUR of them since 2004? So until you know more about the people you are "calling out" stick to the facts. The fact is the bike wasn't legal by DMG/AMA rules. If Ducati, Honda, Yamaha or KTM or BMW would have made this bike it would still not be legal by the rules. So if anyone needs to "get over it" it would be you. Good day. If you have a set of rules that states that bikes MUST be purchased as road legal street bikes and then modifed to race spec, then they are the rules that MUST stand. I see someone can "think" clearly here. Amazing, it seemed as though a true statement that lacks any bias would never come...I am truly shocked and happy all at the same time. (Message edited by liquorwhere on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Dentguy |
"This is pure Buell hate, no matter what you say about liking the bikes." "Just a mob of bashers." "A double win for the morons." And there it is. This discussion got to the Buell haters, bashers and morons comments. If someone doesn't agree with the way AMA/DMG handled things they must hate Buell? | ||
| Court |
The AMA/DMG was just fine . . . no one, throughout the entire season . . . of an credibility complained. No one, not a group nor a manufacturer challenged the championship. Internet drivel akin to contact patch and synthetic oil. The "mine is bigger" mindset. If someone revokes the trophy or a single competitor complains . . . I'll listen to their argument . . . until then. . . carry on. | ||
| Diablo1 |
The AMA/DMG was just fine . . . no one, throughout the entire season . . . of an credibility complained. No one, not a group nor a manufacturer challenged the championship. Not quite true. Matt Mladin made comments on twitter about the 1125RR. Honda's Ray Blank made comments too. No one would complain too loudly though, because they were afraid of the consequences that would be imposed by DMG. It would be like telling the teacher that his class sucks. No one challenged the championship because the 1125RR didn't win one.} | ||
| Trojan |
Part of the problem with DMG/AMA this years seems to have been the attitude that'You are either with us or against us' (sounds familiar!) which makes it very difficult for people to make a complaint for fear of victimisation by the organisers. This has been evident this year with various DMG officials threatening riders with punitive strip downs and tech inspections, with the underlying threat not to rock the boat. This has been fully documented all year by Chris Ulrich amongst others. Mladin and plenty of other riders have made adverse comments on their own and other web sites, but by far the biggest sign of disenchantment must be the number of teams/riders who are now turning their backs on AMA/DMG competition and looking to race elsewhere next season. If someone revokes the trophy or a single competitor complains . . . I'll listen to their argument . . . until then. . . carry on Court, nobody is arguing about the DSB championship or trophy. The argument is about the rules in AMA Superbike and not even about Buell themselves at all. It is unfortunate really that Buell was the unwitting partner in the DMG change in policy/rules/homologation and has become involved in an argument that it is not actually a part of. It seems as soon as Buell is mentioned then the argument gets embroiled in the 'Buell haters' diatribes once again. Buell is just a pawn in the argument and it isn't really about them at all. (Message edited by trojan on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Jaimec |
Not true. | ||
| Blake |
Nonsense Matt, The 1125RR indeed may be built in garage from kit and 1125R. Erik Buell Racing will sell you the entire kit. That is exactly what Buell sought, but DMG thought it better for the sport if Buell agreed to provide entire ready to race machines for a relatively low price. It's that simple. The protests I'm seeing are not based on anything but some strange chip on the shoulder against Buell Racing. Maybe it just hurts too much to see a competitive Superbike employing a ZTL brake system dicing with a race winning Ducati 1198R and beating the big factories just one race from its debut outing?  The tendency of some to become so ridiculously myopic sticklers for what they personally perceive as rules issues, after all the officials have ruled otherwise is bewildering. Especially given the simple fact that the 1125RR is merely a racing Superbike version of the 1125R. Oh, but Cory West didn't go purchase an 1125R from a dealer and do the mods in his garage. How naive! Does anyone here actually believe that any of the top factory teams do any such thing? Why would the factory be involved if that were true? What was done by DMG was to help the sport, not Buell. Buell was totally 100% absolutely willing to simply offer a kit. So the bottom line is that the result is no different. Y'all are stuck on stupid complaining about how that result was achieved. That's the kind of thing that clear thinking folks see as entirely irrelevant. If Suzuki, Yamaha, Ducati, and others are willing to offer exact copies of their factory superbike racing machines to any professional AMA Superbike racer/teams who wanted them for a mere $40K ea, and they agreed to support all those racer/teams with parts and tech services, then they too would be welcomed and applauded and allowed to do so. Not one of the other factories save Buell is willing to do any such thing. Ask Michael Jordan. So the rules haven't changed, weren't changed, just convention. That's all. FYI, a racer purchasing a new machine for the purposes of racing, doesn't get the bike titled for street use, at least not in Texas. The racer/team would simply purchase the bike and title it for off road use only, which is less expensive. I know, I've done it. Would you object to that racer on the grounds that he is not racing a street bike? That is what you are doing in the case of Buell's 1125RR. Stupid huh? Seriously. It's bewildering. Your just seeing in anony's post the result of that very understandable frustration with you knuckleheads refusing to grasp reality. (Message edited by blake on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Give Buell a break. They have many problems to solve. The motorcycle world desperately needs Buell to start racing in a top level. Many fresh ideas !! I think Ducatis are more favoured in WSBK than Buells in AMA SBK. People, on this forum, that blamed FIA for allowing a 1200cc V2 in WSBK, are now blaming DMG for allowing 1125RR in AMA SBK. Maybe it is their nature to complain.... Perhaps the creation of ErikBuellRacing will solve this minor technicality once and for all. Sell a complete race kit to racers so that a 1125RR can be built from a base 1125R by any mechanic, or buy a complete 1125RR directly from EBR. | ||
| Blake |
DMG addressed a major problem in AMA Roadracing, the complete and total monopoly owned by the factory teams, and they nailed it. Some just refuse to see it. Clouded thinking for sure. There was not a single official protest against the legality of the 1125RR. Rhetoric and blog gossip is a joke. Holding up Ray Blank's bought and paid for pro-Honda pablum or any Honda pit crew member's whining about Buell is a joke. And as I recall, the whining from the Honda pit crew member was about the Buell 1125R in DSB. Honda struggles, Honda whines. Honda cannot have their way. Honda throws tantrum and goes home. Good riddance Honda! If I recall, at least one of the other factories expressed what seemed like positive enthusiasm for the convention for homologation, either Yamaha or Suzuki, maybe it was even Honda; I don't recall. | ||
| Blake |
This is very much like the ZTL issue. The glaring truth is that what Buell Racing achieved with the 1125RR was nothing short of astounding. The near debut performance of the bike at New Jersey was spectacular especially given that it is down so much on power. But the strange folks can't see it. They're stuck on hyper-myopic mode worrying about how the 1125RR was never actually titled for street use. | ||
| Jaimec |
Here's where I draw the line. WHAT IF: It were HONDA (and NOT Buell) that came out with a race-only (non-street legal) motorcycle that had modifications that were SPECIFICALLY forbidden in the rules that DMG said they could race? I will bet damn near my entire salary that EVERYONE on this board would be screaming bloody murder. If the rules don't apply to EVERYONE EQUALLY, then just throw the damned thing out because they're meaningless. I'm done. This topic is stupid. (Message edited by jaimec on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Elvis |
Simply not true. You didn't read the rules that were in place before the start of the 2009 race season. These rules were changed before the season, and not during the racing season, and they weren't modified at all during the season. The rules allowed any new manufacturer to homologate a bike while they raced it during the season. They had to meet a specific production schedule. The end of December is the deadline for producing 1000 production bikes. The BMW hasn't hit the street yet, but I'm sure they have close to 1000 bikes built already. Aprilia has built and sold 1000 RSV4 bikes. Don't blame WSBK for Buell choosing the wrong parent company - HD. Maybe things would have turned out differently if they were owned by Piaggio or Suzuki or any other company. Actually, I did read the rules and you can to. Here they are: http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Codes_e t_reglements/SBK_SS_SST_Eng.pdf Look at page 168 and you'll see that, for 2009, 125 bikes had to be made and available to the public before the start of the season, but we didn't even see what the BMW or Aprilia street bikes looked like until half-way through the season. The rules for next year were revised: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=38524 But I have no idea where you're getting your information. If you have a different set of 2009 rules you can reference, I'd certainly be interested in taking a look at them, but those rules I've posted are the rules I've read. It would be crazy to have a policy in which bikes aren't homolgated until December after the race season. What are you homologating in that case? The team could change frames, engine blocks etc. throughout the race season and nobody could stop them because the bike hasn't been homologated. In the case of the 1125RR, the AMA had an actual bike to homologate. Erik now has to stick to that design and he can't make modifications that otherwise wouldn't be allowed. (Message edited by elvis on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Fast2win |
The letter of the law idea doesn't really work well in the real world. Thats why you have a sanctioning body to make decisions based on the spirit of the rules. Which is what they intended in the 1st place . In the case of the Buell the bike and all the different parts in question were homoligated as long as Buell built the bike. No unfair advantage was had.Now get a good laugh and watch this and let the racing begin. Hurry up March. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDcBG1x9X7Q | ||
| Court |
Elvis: Look . . . if you are actually going to READ the rules and come here with facts . . we can just shut this internet conversation down now. If we wanted FACTS . . we'd read the rules to. We just don't want to screw up this fantasy world. I confess my favorite part was about Honda being intimidated by DMG. That's akin to Buell threatening to shut Harley-Davidson down. I'm cleaning the Dr. Pepper off the screen and going back to work. | ||
| Fast2win |
Almost as funny as the Jackie Gleason U tube clip. | ||
| Blake |
"Here's where I draw the line. WHAT IF: It were HONDA (and NOT Buell) that came out with a race-only (non-street legal) motorcycle that had modifications that were SPECIFICALLY forbidden in the rules that DMG said they could race? I will bet damn near my entire salary that EVERYONE on this board would be screaming bloody murder. If the rules don't apply to EVERYONE EQUALLY, then just throw the damned thing out because they're meaningless. I'm done. This topic is stupid. Your premise is fallacious and dishonest. What you would ask if you were interested in an honest answer would be "If Honda did exactly what Buell did, then would they too have been granted homologation?" The answer is an unquestionable "yes". The truth is in fact that HRC for years had provided their factory Honda racers with special built HRC race-ony Superbike machines. HRC, the factory, built the Honda Superbike racing machines in Japan and shipped them to America for their factory teams, recall Nicky Hayden, Miguel Duhamel and others. The difference versus what Buell is doing with the 1125RR is that HRC never ever came close to offering that same machine to any other AMA Superbike racers/teams, ever. The bikes they provided were NEVER titled for street use, could not be titled for street use. They were merely based on the street bikes after the street bike was supposedly completely disassembled and rebuilt from the ground up. Frankly I doubt that HRC actually went through the tear down phase either. They likely just didn't tell anyone. What the knuckleheads are so inexplicably outraged about is that Buell wasn't required to physically tear down an existing 1125R in order to obtain the baseline parts (chassis, engine cases, etc.) required to build the 1125RR racing machine; instead they were allowed to simply use the same parts but skipping the nonsensical going-through-the-motions step of having to first assemble a standard street bike before then tearing it down completely to create the racing machine. The end result is exactly the same either way, one just requires a lot of make-work. On top of that, Buell Racing agreed to provide at a VERY reasonable price the exact same factory superbike racing machine version of the 1125R to any Professional AMA Superbike racer who wanted to race one and they promised to also provide said racers with factory parts and support. That is UNPRECEDENTED in AMA Superbike racing! Honda FAIL! Your dishonest analogy... FAIL! (Message edited by blake on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Diablo1 |
Look at page 168 and you'll see that, for 2009, 125 bikes had to be made and available to the public. The rules were updated before the start of the 2009 season. "Adrian Roderick, general manager of BMW Motorrad UK told MCN that the S1000RR is unlikely to be in dealers until early 2010, as the World Superbike homologation rules give the firm until December 2009 to build road-going motorcycles." "The FIM has updated its World Superbike, Supersport and Superstock Championship homologation rules for the 2010 season. Most of the regulation updates are related to homologation rules, making technologies such as anti-lock brake systems and ride-by-wire electronically controlled throttle valves legal only if they are available as standard equipment on homologated models. The minimum number of production units required for homologation was also adjuted. Current rules require a minimum of 1,000 production units by the end of the year, with the minimum originally scheduled to rise to 3,000 for 2010. Under the new regulations however, the 2010 requirement was reduced to 2,000 units. The FIM also moved the deadline for manufacturers applying for homologation in any class for the first time, requiring 500 units by the end of June of each year, three months earlier than the current September deadline. In 2010, the 1,000 unit mark must be reached at least 15 days before the final WSBK race of the year, compared to the current Dec. 31 deadline. At least 1,500 units must be produced by the end of June 2011, while full 2,000 unit minimum must be reached 15 days before the last race of the 2011 season. The 2009 season saw two new motorcycles enter the WSBK series under existing homologation rules, the BMW S1000RR and Aprilia RSV4. Both manufacturers were required to produce at least 1,000 units by the end of December. The new homologation requirements will impact any manufacturers seeking to enter the World Superbike, Supersport or Superstock Championships. KTM entered its 1190 RC8R in the 2009 German Superbike series, IDM, and the new rules will apply should it choose to enter the WSBK series in 2010. Earlier this month, the manufacturer announced it is shutting down its 125cc Grand Prix program and redirecting resources to the RC8R."}} |
