| Author | Message | ||
     Buell101 |
I'm looking at putting a complete R1, possible Ducati front end on my 1125r. I know the rakes, fork lengths, ect are different but am looking for advice as to what would be affected in regards to performance/handeling, what works, what doesn't... Thanks | ||
| Trojan |
I put a complete Yamaha R1 front end on my last XB12 race bike, including wheel & brakes (including master cylinder). You will need to get some triple trees made that will combine the width of the Yamaha forks (slightly wider than the Buell) with the offset etc of the stock Buell triple trees. I used an 04 Yamaha R1 but later models will give you access to radial brake calipers which are marginally better than the 'blue spott' calipers on the older R1 (although not much better). I guarantee you that you will have a smile a mile wide once you have done it. I know there will be plenty of people on here who will now jump in and say how good the Buell brakes are etc etc etc, but most of them will never have done this conversion so will just be trotting out the same old company line. You really do have to do the conversion before you realise just how much better it can be. Braking is powerful with no fade whatsoever, no brake overheating, easy access to spare wheels and brake pads from trackside vendors etc, and if you upgrade the fork internals it will give you a superb front end. Phil Read rode our bike and the biggest compliment we had was from him 'This is the best front end that I have ever had on a race bike'  Do it You won't regret it. | ||
| Slaughter |
Problem is going to be finding usable front ends since in MOST get-offs, the forks are very damage-prone and so they're really in demand (that was ALWAYS a problem for us racing SVs with converted forks) | ||
| Buell101 |
Thanks Trojan, I will be converting to an R1 set up (more accessible parts). I talked to some R1 guys and was told the 04-06 are what I want (bigger disks). So I take it the R1 triple trees will not work because of the geometry. Are the dimensions of the the fork diameter and offset (fork center to center) all I need for correct alignment? I have access to a cad system and water jet. Or could I get an aftermarket set of buells and have them machined to the R1's diameter? Thanks | ||
| Blake |
"what would be affected in regards to performance/handeling," Handling over less than perfect surfaces will be degraded. You'll be adding unsprung mass. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
We, AKA, a few of us have used GSXR forks with Brembo set-ups over the years, but think I agree with Blake on this one. Not too sure the cost/benifit will support and then out perform the new ZTL-2 eight piston set up. Terry - www.jtsperformance.com | ||
| Trojan |
Not too sure the cost/benifit will support and then out perform the new ZTL-2 eight piston set up. Terry - Most of the European race teams found that they had problems with the ZTL2 brake on the race 1125R's and have pretty much all swapped to alternative brake systems. Some are using Beringer twin discs, some Brembo (with Bitubo Superbike forks) and at least one team is unit Sicom composite brakes. Maybe we have more corners here in Europe than you do, or maybe we give brakes a harder time Either way we have found over the years that the theoretical benefits of the ZTL setup are far outweighed by having front brakes that will stop the bike reliably for the duration of a race rather than fade to nothing in 3-4 laps  Let's face it. Nobody ever says that a GSXR1000 or R1 suffers from the front end because it has too much unsprung weight do they? | ||
| Jens |
Matt, that many people do/say something, doesent make right or true what they say or do. 1:34.9 laptime in Oschersleben with ZTLē on a 1125R (stock engine, stock exhaust, stock mapping, stock weight)after racing more than 2 h with the same (factoryrace)pads and DAYS with the same (factoryrace steel)disc (less than a mm abrasion of the pad), says all.... And two 2nd finishes in the Pro Thunder over 30 competitors with conventional racebrakes. Maybe you guys out there who preach converting the Buell frontbrake to that what all do, should ride also these bikes what all do. Itīs a good moment now, buy a HOYAKASUKI or a Duc and enjoy the double monoblocs. Jens | ||
| Trojan |
Jens, I am not saying that Buell have not had good results using the 'stock'ZTL2 brake. However you know yourself just how much heat that this produces, and how difficult it can be to manage this to reduce fade. You have had to make a air scoop to channel cool air into your front brake, and other German (Buell Hannover)teams have used 6 brake rotors and pads sets in a six hour race because of overheating and discs warping, so your example is not so typical as you suggest. Ilmberger, Free Spirits, Buell Hannover, West Coast Motors and plenty of other very experienced Buell race teams have tried and failed to get the ZTL and ZTL2 to work as well as 'conventional' brake setups and I agree with them completely. The choice is there to either keep the stock system or to change it. I know which I prefer having tried both, and would not hesitate to change the front end on any Buell that I own. Itīs a good moment now, buy a HOYAKASUKI or a Duc and enjoy the double monoblocs. I have ridden the current generation of Japanese superbikes, and can say that the front ends and monobloc style radial brakes are far more consistent and powerful than the Buell 1125 in my humble opinion. How many people ever consider canging the front brakes of their HOYAKASUKI or Duc? The fact that they are happy is testament to the fact that there is nothing wrong with conventional brakes, and that sometimes you can have engineering for the sake of being different and for no real world tangible benefit. I sell parts for Buells and also for Japanese/European sports bikes. Is it a coincidence that nobody with the Jap/Euro sportsbikes ever asked for a brake upgrade but it is one of the most common Buellowner enquiries? | ||
| Jens |
Matt, again where is the proof in it if other people do something. There are more Buellracers out there who race with ZTL than Buellracers who convert their brakes. It sounds that you never tested a todays ZTLē with last factorydisc and pads. ALL the names you report, that I know for sure, havent ever tested these components. Sorry Matt, your argument just fail. Jens | ||
| M1combat |
It must be the pavement? I rarely see guys swap their brake setups over here Trojan. I haven't... You're right... but I rarely see anyone else doing that either. Most people I've watched race over here never complain about the brakes on their Buells. I don't really think it's fair to say that you have more turns either... I think it's a pretty well proven fact that America has the finest race tracks in the world. So anyway... On to the subject . I say if you aren't racing then stick with the ZTL. It absolutely does work better over washboard type bumps like you get on the inside tire track of a very tight mountain road turn. If you're racing I still say stick with the ZTL2. If you're having brake fade issues then find out why they're happening. Don't just "assume" it's the system. Said system works for most people.... | ||
| Bud |
it's a thing about trust, with the ZTL2 on the XBRR with 6 mm disk and buell race pads did not last for 11 laps with out warping and needed to change 5 sets ( pads and disk +/- 400 a set ) one racing weekend, there was little riders trust in the system, and that is also a important factor perhaps you guys have unlimited funds for testing/ racing, for us a extra 2000 euro a race weekend is a little to much, for us this was a reason to find a more durable solution now with the Brembo mono blocks every two races a set off pads, and a fluid change, and there is the lock wiring thing with the ZLT2 pins ( our rule book ) i must agree, we did not test with the new finned rotor as i recall Jens, you where trying to find solution back in 2003 / 2004 for the warping disk ( the titanium rotor bolts ) and later with the rear fender mounted to the fork as a cooling duct perhaps we brake to much  (Message edited by bud on October 22, 2009) | ||
| Anonymous |
Trojan does not speak the truth. I know many of the people he mentions that "could not make it work", and they did and used the system. No one ever went faster on a Buell 1125 than did the American Superbike guys on the 1125RR's in the US and they hasd no problems with the race version of ZTL2. All parts of which are available. Trojan, it is time for you to go away and stop attacking a brilliant system that is going to now disappear because Buell went under. Pushing that the system "didn't work" so you can sell kits is absolutely dishonorable. | ||
| Buell101 |
I should elaborate a little more. I just bought my 1125r 3-4 and plan on racing it as much as my wallet will let me. There are a couple reasons for considering (for me)converting the most import being the most concerning.. no more Buell and for the convenience of part availability, trackside/ dealership/aftermarket. For me it's 1 1/2 to the nearest dying Buell dealer, and I don't want to take the chance of dumping $2000?? for a race worthy complete ZT2L front end assembly like the RR and hope an after market company will supply the rotors and other parts. As much as I like the uniqueness & stares of the (stock)ZT2L it doesnt work as well as the dual disk system in a racing environment. If it did motoGP would use this technology.. dual ZT2L?? And due to the economic state, Im sure Eric/HD would love to collect the royalties. "Itīs a good moment now, buy a HOYAKASUKI or a Duc and enjoy the double monoblocs." Why when I could put them on my 1125r. I don't want to shake the foundations of the BMC I simply want to know if anyone has done it and what worked the best R1 CBRR, Duc... I know another racer who can get me R1 parts CHEAP I think it's worth a shot. So far no one here (US) thinks its worth the time but if there is let me know and I will share the conversion results. Thanks all | ||
| Blake |
Matt, I agree, you've harped on that too much. The ZTL2 works, proven by a national championship and the performance of the 1125RR's. Something else is obviously to blame for those who have had trouble. | ||
| Trojan |
I wasn't going to get into a pointless argument with people over whether the ZTL brake works or not, simply because I knew the zealots would be along to shout and scream and throw stones. All I wanted to convey was the answer to the original question, which is yes you can do the swap and yes it works. Unlike most of those here who now try to shoot me down, I have actually tried both systems and tried unsuccessfully (with help from Henry Duga) to get the original ZTL to work properly on my race bike for over a year before doing the swap. I also know that all the teams that I know of that have swapped from the stock ZTL to 'traditional style brakes are more than happy, so it isn't just my opinion. Trojan, it is time for you to go away and stop attacking a brilliant system that is going to now disappear because Buell went under. Pushing that the system "didn't work" so you can sell kits is absolutely dishonorable. Guess what...I don't sell conversion kits, so have nothing to gain by this conversion or conversation. Unlike you, who have been trying to sell the ZTL to the world for years. Unfortunately nobody else gets it, no other manufacturer thinks it is a good idea, and very few 'fast' riders that I know like it. It really doesn't matter how good it was now does it? ZTL2 works, proven by a national championship and the performance of the 1125RR's. How much faster could the 1125RR go with Brembo radial monoblocs? Did anyone ever test it? The 1125 may have won a championship fitted with ZTL brakes, but nobody can say that they won it because it had them. It may have been even better fitted with Brembos for all you know. Stating that the 1125R won a national championship BECAUSE it had ZTL brakes opens another huge can of worms that I won't go into here, but if you think that the Buell brakes are better than a race spec R6 or ZX6R then you obviously haven't ridden one recently. Jens, you know that you had problems with the ZTL brakes too, othewise wouldn't have fitted huge air scoops etc. Saying that it is great with the factory 'finned' rotor and factory pads is no good to the guy who doesn't have access to these parts. The Yamaha/Suzuki/Honda brakes are great just as they come from the shop. | ||
| Jens |
>Jens, you know that you had problems with the ZTL brakes too, othewise wouldn't have fitted huge air scoops etc. Saying that it is great with the factory 'finned' rotor and factory pads is no good to the guy who doesn't have access to these parts. The Yamaha/Suzuki/Honda brakes are great just as they come from the shop.< Matt, Butt, yes since 2003 I never stopped to do my part in development the ZTL brakes for the racetrack and I can say that they are today not only brakes good enough to win championships, they are also so reliable, that the cost argument dont count. All ZTLē parts we use are for anybody available and there are no titaniumparts or rocketsience. Buell101, sorry for your thread, sure you didnīt think to open that can... (-: Maybe one day you like to invest 400$ in racerotor and disc, replace the brakepump and find out how the ZTLē work. Jens | ||
| Xl1200r |
I always like these threads My opinion: I think the ZTL is the be all, end all of street bike front brakes. Heat and fade are not such an issue. On the track, I can see pro's and cons to the system. A single rotor means the pads will have bite harder (more heat). A larger rotor means the disc will moving faster through the caliper (more heat). A larger rotor also means the caliper won't have to bite as hard (less heat). We don't know if these things balance out or not. The only possible way to test this is to compare track times of the same bike fitted with each setup. Not sure how's you do this since it would also mean having to change the front end which could also affect times. | ||
| Bulldogprostock |
Since Buell has passed on I can tell you that Buell had reached the end of there potential and at Mid-Ohio was trying some alternate set-ups in Superbike practice and had thermal couples all over the brakes to collect data. The problem is and will continue to be that the rim is in reality a heat sink, so as the races wore on the tire pressures would change and brake fluid, rotor and pad temperatures would get extremely high. This condition only got worse with the introduction of magnesium wheels on the factory race bikes. We where working with Buell to develop CF wheels and the problem was CF is a very good insulator and only increased the rotor, caliper and fluid temperatures. Also Buell will not pay any contingency money to a team that did not run the perimeter brake system. To much marketing money and intellectual property tied up in it. Buell was going to test a dual rotor set-up in the post season. | ||
| Anonymous |
Bulldog is full of S***. Point blank. No one knows better than I. There will be lots of vultures trying to rip apart the remains. This is disgusting. We were not working with anyone to develop CF wheels. The brakes were working great on our Superbike at the end of the season in New Jersey as anyone could see, and we had more improvements coming. Every racer out there was getting their brakes hot no matter what type of syste. That's what racing does, push the limits. Never, never was there an issue with heat getting into wheels and changing pressure. There was NO plan to go to dual discs, as there were many new things we were working on. ZTL wasn't even close to the end of its potential. You should have seen what we were really working on, not what this bozo says. | ||
| Neb25 |
I can say that I raced with the ZTL2 for 3 years totaling over 7,000 track miles and never had any problems. That includes tracks like Daytona and Road America which may be harder on brakes than any other tracks in the world. I have been on R6s and GSXRs and they do not seem any better to me. Just got back from Daytona and put over 100 laps on the same rotor. If you were having problems it must have been with the old 6 piston caliper with the wrong pads. In fact, out of the many Buell racers I know, I've never heard of the issues I am hearing here. | ||
| Bulldogprostock |
Anonymous, I wish you had told me about the lack of issues with the front wheel/brakes you where working on before we spent the time to quote tooling and pricing at Steven Anderson's request. We enjoyed meeting with David Mcgrath at Mid-Ohio to review Buells needs and I assume you where there and showed us some of the trick parts going into the race bikes. Of course our efforts with AMA to gain approval for CF wheels in 2010 would have been greatly simplified if we didn't have to offer wheels for all the competitors. We would have been more than happy to just offer the products we already had. Don't assume you have all the pieces of anything, I certainly don't. I guess the magnesium thixomolded components didn't float your boat either? I am a huge Buell fan and always will be, my street bike is a Lightning and I raced a XB12R for 2 years so I understand the breed pretty well and I would be the last person to "pick the bones". Sorry if it sounded like I was. | ||
| Bulldogprostock |
Anonymous, after I thought about it and you essentially called me a liar I have copy pasted the contents on an email I received from Steven this summer prior to Mid-Ohio and yes I blanked out his phone number. And yes my name is Jeff and I am a 25 year veteran Mechanical Engineer and Ohio registered PE. I also work within the motorcycle aftermarket industry for a variety of companies. If you need any further proof let me know. "Hi Jeffrey, I'm aware of BST's reputation for carbon fiber wheels and general expertise in composite structures. We have an unusual application with the rim-mounted disk, particularly as we use aluminum or magnesium wheels as a heat sink/heat-dissipating element in our brake design. What would a Buell-unique carbon-fiber front wheel cost? I'm very interested in retailing wheels which, with after adding our margin and the dealer margin, would sell for less than typical Marchesini or PVM forged racing wheels. With best regards, Steve Steven H Anderson Platform Director Buell Motorcycle Company ph 949-XXX-XXXX" | ||
| Anonymous |
A request for a quote on a wheel that Steve might have thought Buell could sell at a profit is far from what you claim. Steve got quotes from many, many manufacturers just to find the lay of the land. Matching this up to what you claimed about our brake system being at the end of it's rope, and all the problems it was causing just doesn't hold any water. What I ststed is the facts of where we were. BTW, we have been using thixomolded magnesium since 2002 on Buell street bikes. What has that to do with the topic? Where you work has nothing to do with the facts of where the ZTL system was in it's development. | ||
| Bulldogprostock |
So Anonymous, your name and insider information is quite important to you I gather. I've been quite open and have had some fairly in depth briefings concerning the issues, yes I said issues, with heat dissipation on the Buell. Drop the vail, you hoping to keep your job at Buell? Besides you seem to gloss over that fact you stated "We were not working with anyone to develop CF wheels". Also " Never, never was there an issue with heat getting into wheels and changing pressure". Lets see Steve states "our rims are a heat sink" where do you think the heat goes in the perimeter design? Then you calmly state ooohhh yeah Steve was just getting quotes. I can tell you we had no desire to make a set of bastard rims that would require substantial investment on Buell's and our part. The only reason was Buell would not approve the CF wheels for AMA use unless we played ball with them. Also if you don't mind since I am always interested in learning new things, what parts are thixomolded on a Buell anyway? Seriously just wondering. Rather than continue this entertaining round of mental masterbation why don't we just agree to disagree. If not I'm willing to continue. Sorry Buell101 I didn't mean to jack the thread but since there isn't any fear of losing contingency money and Buell paid very well, I say good luck. I'll post pic's in a month of my Lightning with CF 240 conversion with GSXR front end. Don't blindly believe everything you read if transparency isn't part of the info. I can be reached through my profile. Sincerely Jeff | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I also did not like the ZTL when I first tried it, because the brake power was not great and I had overheating issues. My confidence on the system was low. After trying many-many pads, I tried EBC GFA 345HH "extreme pads" and the brake power increased and overheating issues were solved, since I also changed my riding style. Now I am happy with the performance of the ZTL on my XB12r...... That is until I ride my Aprilia RS, and I realise that the dual disk-brembo-EBC is far superior in overall braking performance than the ZTL. On the other hand the less unsprung weight of the ZTL is very noticable compared to the dual disk set-ups, either Aprila or Suzuki, Buell's front end works so much better. I think XB's phenomenal cornering abilities is closely linked to the low mass of the ZTL. And bealive me, my XB12R has the same cornering abilities as my 130kg Aprilia RS250, which is phenomenal. To reach the mass of the ZTL setup, you would need a very expensive front wheel for a dual-sisk bike. So ZTL has its advantages and disadvantages. One anonymous post a few months ago said the truth loud and clear...." ZTL was designed as a superior "low unspung weight" system", not as a better braking system"...I agree 100%. Dual disk set-ups will overheat with the wrong pads, and I also know of many R1, GSXR riders that change stock pads and disks. Buell101, what pads and master cylinder are you using ?? ZTL2 + air scoop sounds very good to me !! | ||
| Steve_a |
Bulldogprostock, or Brock Davidson, as he's known in the real world has never had in depth conversations with me concerning ZTL brake performance. He approached me for BST when the AMA told BST that the only way they would allow their carbon-fiber composite wheels in superbike racing was if they were available to all competitors -- including Buell. I certainly mentioned to him that we use the front wheel in part as a heat sink, because we do, and it's something we would be concerned about if there were a minimal amount of material or low conductivity material at the mounting points. However, in our brake tests to failure, when we get the front disk hot enough to glow brightly in Arizona sunlight, we don't get so much heat in the front rim to signficantly effect tire pressure or tire performance. Both magnesium and aluminum have very high specific heats, are very conductive, and the rim and brake mounting posts allow a lot of rapidly spinning area for cooling. We have been aggressively working on ZTL3 for Superbike racing; brake energy goes up with the square of speed, so we needed something more to handle 190mph Superbike speeds. Jens Kreuper has used only those parts we have developed for DSB this season, and he reports its solid performance above. The new system had a much greater improvement in heat-shedding performance, and we had all the pieces coming together for podium performance in Superbike next season. As for BST wheels, Brock quoted us $1200 per wheel in quantity 25. (Obviously since he's willing to discuss our brake performance here, he won't mind me discussing other details here.) We weren't interested. We were working on a new generation of magnesium wheels based on new aluminum street wheels we had developed by very, very intensive computerized structural optimization. The first of the aluminum wheels were in house about two months ago. Using the new ablation casting process for magnesium returned simply amazing material properties, the best ever seen in magnesium castings. Using the same design as the aluminum street bike wheel, we were anticipating a 5.5 pound front wheel and an 8.2 pound 17x6.0 rear that we would have been able to retail under Brock's wholesale price. First pours were scheduled in January. | ||
| Sparky |
I sincerely hope that BMC's R&D doesn't have to end with the closing of the company. I love hearing about advancements in American technology getting folded into our street bikes as a result of "Racing Improves the Breed" -- even more so when it's an 1125RR on the podium. | ||
| Jens |
We are airpressure maniacs, measure and record results at all time.  Dealing with the dynamic influences on the airpressure is "How to learn racing chapter I". There are differences between tires, dayconditions, etc. But in the end it is your rider, the tire, the bike and the track what generate the rising of the tiretemperature and dictate backwards your startingairpressure cold. If the ZTL generating extra temperature for the rim (what I never noticed) it would be just another factor. Jens | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"First pours were scheduled in January."  This is one of the many things that upsets me so much about Buell being closed down  |
