| Author | Message | ||
     Dentguy |
but later articles proved that there were far more changes between the 1125RR and the 1125R than was allowed by the rules so DMG changed the rules. Where did you find this info? I must have missed it. Please cite the source. Fresno, This may be what was referred to (about 3 questions down). http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=37510 | ||
| Blake |
It is absolutely inconceivable that their system will not produce world champions in the future, and the only surprise to me is that they haven't won more before now!. You seem to think that it is "the system" that produces champions. My sense is that MotGP champions will be champions no matter where or what type of system they come from. The only issue is the one of smaller bikes that give huge advantages to smaller, lighter riders. I think that sucks, but the size issue is true in many sports, some favor larger stature while some give smaller humans a major advantage. Now we can just sit on our respective colonial laurels harping on about how many championships we won in the good old days, or we could look to see how the Spanish system has produced Let's look at Italy, Australia, America, and Britania then. Their championship record is by far the best of late in the top classes, WSBK and MotoGP. One thing is for certain. If we just carry on with our production based racing and weird 'concocted Sportsbike' categories we won't have many more MotoGP champions in the future (and I include the current generation of US and UK riders). I don't see that at all. I just don't buy your premise at all. I think motorcycle road racing champions will find a way to win, not matter their background. | ||
| Blake |
And I sure don't buy the idea that national level motorcycle road racing should have as its primary or even tertiary goal the intent to produce MotoGP competitors. I think that is silly. Betting against DMG is pretty darn brave. GOOD RIDDANCE TO HONDA FACTORY RACING IN AMERICA!!! I guess they didn't learn their lesson in WSBK. Greedy selfish idiots. It would be too cool to see Jake Zemke and Jake Holden riding a Buell 1125RR in ASBK next year. | ||
| Crusty |
You know, when the Japanese factories boycotted the World SBK series, it gave Ducati a couple of years to develop their superbikes. When the factories came back, they had an uphill battle racing against the Ducks. If all the Japanese pull out of AMA racing, I bet Buell, Aprilia, KTM and Ducati would be very willing to sell Racers motorcycles that would be competitive. So, with the exception of less than a dozen Factory sponsored riders, good racers who weren't favored by the factories ( but are nevertheless excellent riders) will be able to race on machinery that they have an honest chance of winning on. The racers win. The fans who go to the races will have the benefit of hearing the thunder of big twins, and will get to see some pretty competitive racing. The fans win. If winning on Sunday sells bikes on Monday, then Buell, Aprilia, KTM and Ducati win. It looks to me like everybody wins! Tell me why this is a bad thing. | ||
| Blake |
Because poor Honda is unhappy and ... I mean, it beats me!  | ||
| 4cammer |
Honda has not made a bike that interests me since maybe the CB1. Later. Good luck in WSBK and MotoGP. Or not. | ||
| Trojan |
I would never buy a Honda (or a Yamaha for that matter) but I firmly believe tat top level road racing needs factory involvement, not just because it adds glamour and glitz and shows that it IS the top level, but because the factory technology then trickles down to lower levels of racing. What the factory teams use today the club racers will be able to buy next year. Honda have not only withdrawn their 'factory' supported teams but also ALL of the factory support for ALL Honda teams and privateers in AMA, so the trickle down of expertise and parts stops dead. British Superbike (widely acknowledged as the best domestic superbike series in the world by experts) has no factory teams, and every bike in the series has to be bought as a road bike from the respective European distributors at the start of the season. That includes HM Plant Honda and Airwaves Yamaha, the two top teams in the series. However, that is not to say they don't have plenty of factory involvement. Airwaves Yamaha benefit from the same parts that are used in the Yamaha WSB team and HM plant get the same HRC parts as Ten Kate do from Honda. Without the factory involvement the series would just be a richer version of any club race using near standard bikes. There would not be 40-60,000 people at every event or the 6 million TV viewers the series atracts in the UK alone. Without that the sponsors wouldn't be there and the series would be a lot poorer. When Honda pulled out of racing completely in 1967 the racing world wasn't suddenly much more competitive and racing didn't get any closer. What actually happened was that the remaining factory team (MV) just ran away with every event to such an alarming degree that racing became very boring and the spectator numbers dropped like a stone. (Agostini regulalry laped every other rider up to second place!) If all the Japanese pull out of AMA racing, I bet Buell, Aprilia, KTM and Ducati would be very willing to sell Racers motorcycles that would be competitive. What makes you think that any of these factories other than Buell have any interest or plans to run in AMA on a factory level or sell competitive superbikes at affordable prices? Ducati don't even make a 'race spec' 848R and don't race this bike anywhere except the US, and their WSB spec 1198R isn't allowed in US Superbikes anyway, so why would they want to have factory involvement? KTM are in dire financial straits as are most of the other smaller manuafacturers, so their racing effort will be directed towards either the IDM German superbike series or WSB if anywhere at all. If Aprilia were to enter AMA racing with the RSV4 don't think it will be an 'affordable' over the counter racer because it surely won't! Finally, the KTM RC8R, Aprilia RSV4 and the Ducati 1198 are far more expensive to buy or run than the Japanese IL4 Superbikes, so privateers would need huge budgets/sponsorhsip to run competitive bikes. (Message edited by trojan on September 19, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
I just don't buy the contention that lacking massively expensive WSBK spec competitive machinery, the fans in Britain would lose interest in BSB racing. Truth is, if you put two racers on the track, one on a Superstock machine and one on a WSBK spec machine of the same brand, 95% of the fans will be unable to tell the difference. The racing itself is what attracts, that and brand interest and the rider interest/fanbase. Whether or not a machine has Ohlins forks or custom internals in the OEM Showas, or if the bike makes 10% more HP isn't going to matter one bit to 95% of the fans. It sure doesn't matter to me. The level of performance of the liter class machines is now spectacular even in superstock form. It's certainly plenty good to make for a very fast, very exciting spectacle. I just don't buy for one second that making the machines cost twice as much or more makes the racing any better. It sure relates a lot less to the machines on the showroom floor. Which is one very irritating thing about the whole SBK concept. I think most fans would prefer to see true superstock racing as the top class in national series. I think DMG did the absolute right thing in dumping the expensive, factory only SBK spec class in favor of something closer to Superstock and then dumping Superstock. It makes no sense to basically gift only the factory teams with competitive machines since they are the only ones who can afford them. Better is to make the rules such that top privateers may also afford competitive machines. DMG is on course towards achieving that goal and Buell is helping them. Go DMG and Go Buell Racing! | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Aprilia is slated to run their RSV4 with Chaz Davies and the same KWS/Millennium team that ran in DSB this year. Honda was already out of AMA racing for all intents and purposes. That they figure they have no chance to win in 2010 is probably the bigger reason for their departure. Yamaha and Suzuki own AMA Superbike at this point. Lets hope that Ducati and Buell step up along with Aprilia and BMW too. So long Honda. | ||
| Trojan |
I just don't buy the contention that lacking massively expensive WSBK spec competitive machinery, the fans in Britain would lose interest in BSB racing. Truth is, if you put two racers on the track, one on a Superstock machine and one on a WSBK spec machine of the same brand, 95% of the fans will be unable to tell the difference I think you do the fans a disservice. Most knowledgable fans can tell the difference between a Superstock and Superbike quite easily, and the lap times certainly show the differences between them. BSB tried changing the rules to Superstock style engine tuning and it didn't work. Big teams didn't want to race, big sponsors threatened to pull their money and spectators didn't like it. This year they are back to the same rules as WSB. Some championships, such as the German IDM and Canadian Superbike series work under the supestock engine rules quite successfully, but then the fans there don't get any choice. Either watch the slower 'superstock' bikes or don't watch anything. I think most fans would prefer to see true superstock racing as the top class in national series. On what do you base that assumption? Here in the UK we have both Superbike and Superstock and I know which the fans prefer just from TV audience figures and spectator attendance. When the Superstock race is held after the Superbikes most fans have already left the circuit. In the USA, TV audience figures are down this year compared with previous years of AMA Superbike racing. if your contention that racing will become privateer based is true then TV audiences will suffer even further. You said yourself thatyou don't want to watch races where you don't know who the competitors are, and that is exactly what will happen with DMG/AMA racing. Glorified club racing. Blake, Chaz Davies has left for pastures new in WSS/WSB, I certainly don't expect to see him or anyone else riding teh RSV4 in AMA Superbike next year, but if they do decide to race there it will be a factory effort not some bike you can buy at your local Aprilia dealer. Liekwise, Ducati haven't even sugested that they are considering AMA competition in 2010. Given that they can see the treatment that Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha have been given by DMG why would they want to even consider taking part? I think it is far more likely that the European factories would take part if there was a breakaway series completely separate from AMA/DMG influence. DMG is on course towards achieving that goal and Buell is helping them. Some people outside of the Buell enthusiasts would read something entirely different into that statement! Why should one factory have the ear of DMG yet the others are given no say at all? What possible advertising kudos will there be for Buell to win if they are the ONLY factory involved? I can't be bothered to argue about this any longer to be honest. Thankfully I still have BSB/WSB/125GP/250GP/Moto2/MotoGP and a host of other decent racing to keep me more than occupied. (Message edited by trojan on September 19, 2009) | ||
| Elvis |
I have no idea what will happen with KTM, BMW and Aprilia, but I think it would be short sighted for those factories to not at least encourage AMA participation in some form. Even with all the controversy (maybe because of the controversy?) AMA is still a higher profile venue than German Superbike - particularly regarding the lucrative US market. BMW hasn't broken out in WSBK yet and KTM seems cautious of the costs and, I suspect, they're not sure if their bikes are quite ready for that level yet. AMA would seem the obvious "stepping stone" between German Superbike and WSBK. There is also a marketing advantage to the riders and teams in the US looking for bikes. There are a lot of people in the US who own BMW's (both motorcycles and cars) and if Jake Holden (for example) hopped on a BMW he would get more attention than he would on a Japanese bike. That attention will lead to more sponsorship dollars. Similarly, I think there is an interest in makes like Aprilia and KTM (because they are very rare and exotic in the US)so fans will pay more attention to those bikes and attention is a big thing in racing and sponsorship dollars. Even if the factories are limited in what they can or will offer, I would be willing to bet that we will see BMW's and/or Aprilias and/or KTM's in AMA Superbike next year. No matter what the Japanese factories do, there is a certain "critical mass" of riders, teams and sponsors involved in the AMA. Some of those participants may go elsewhere, but most of them will be here next year racing and if Honda and Kawasaki aren't here, they'll find other bikes. The uncertainty we are seeing now is NOTHING compared to what we had at this time last year. DMG survived 2009 and what didn't kill them made them stronger. The motorcyle racing world is a lot different than it was 10 years ago. There are alternatives to Japanese bikes and if Honda and Kawasaki aren't careful, they could see a shift that will leave them on the outside looking in. Competition has limited their power and they're foolish not to recognize that. . . . and I still think that the mention of a Ninja series is more significant than most people realize. The fact that Kawasaki would support such an effort shows they believe people will be attending AMA events next year and they will support the attention they want for those Ninja 250's by participating in other ways. . . . and is it a stretch to think that DMG might have said something like: "Look, we'll let you run a 250 Ninja series, but we'd like you to promise to field a factory Superbike team." Don't forget that Edmondson is involved with Canadian Superbike and Kawasaki is a big part of that. Yamaha would be very foolish to drop out now when Josh Hayes looks to be the favorite for next year's Superbike and even if Suzuki limits their participation, there will be people riding Suzukis (like Jordan). (Message edited by elvis on September 19, 2009) | ||
| Elvis |
*Edit - duplicate post* (Message edited by elvis on September 19, 2009) | ||
| Court |
>>Honda was already out of AMA racing for all intents and purposes. Frankly . . in a lot of ways . . Honda is just dull. I mean when was the last time you aspired to work your way up to a Honda? The company makes generators and weed wackers . . over the years they have certainly had their moments in racing and there is no doubt, with their hundreds of millions in racing resources, that they do some good stuff. But if a guy showed up to take your daughter out and was riding a Honda . . . you have to admit your first thought would be "wimp". I'd far rather see BMW in the mix. This was the biggest year of racing I can recall and it was nice, having seen so many years of empty stands at Daytona, to see a robust and excited crowd. | ||
| Ceejay |
Is Honda pulling out because of DMG or because they've decided that there vast(but dwindling resources-just like everyone else at this time) would be better spent in markets that are more sportbike friendly? I'm sorry as I haven't read the articles linked here, but as I see it most of Honda's production(cars, generators, mowers, bikes, etc.) is down which substantially cuts into thier overhead as they no longer are able to buy raw materials in the cost saving large bulk that they were, as well as shipping costs. The more you buy, the cheaper the cost per item. The more you ship, to specific locations the cheaper it is to ship per item, both of which creates for a larger profit margin, which can allow large companies to pour into marketing/racing. If the orders are down, the cost per item (to the manufacturer) stays a little higher. When you're a company that was building over a million bikes a year, not to mention all the other things they build, those few dollars here and there add up quick. Given that the US market is more geared to the cruisers and dirt, what are they supposed to do? In a sense it puts them on somewhat of a more level playing field with the smaller companies who have much less buying clout, smaller distribution networks, and in the end racing organizations. I've never studied marketing, business, accounting, etc., so this is just speculation on my part, but when the majority of sportbike sales occur in markets other than the US why wouldn't they do it this way? | ||
| Blake |
TV coverage was virtually non existent this year for AMA RoadRacing, delayed up to two weeks and shown at midnight and not replayed. The opposite of last year. Comparing TV audience versus last season is thus wildly invalid. A narrow or short-sighted view of what DMG has planned for Moto road racing will fail to recognize a very viable strategy. These folks play for keeps, are willing to invest in LONG TERM growth, and are the most successful promoters of motorsports in America if not the World. Bet against them? Heh. I'd not be so foolish. I wish I could purchase stock in AMA Pro Racing. (Message edited by Blake on September 19, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
>>> You said yourself that you don't want to watch races where you don't know who the competitors are, and that is exactly what will happen with DMG/AMA racing. Glorified club racing. I don't see how. That contention makes no sense to me. Where will our racers disappear to?  My understanding is that Chaz is finishing out the '09 season for a WSS team. Nothing more. KWS is on record saying that they and Chaz will be back for ASBK in 2010. I sure hope so. >>> Liekwise, Ducati haven't even sugested that they are considering AMA competition in 2010. Given that they can see the treatment that Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha have been given by DMG why would they want to even consider taking part? They haven't stated they would? I think the more pertinent fact is that neither have they announced that they won't. They returned to a moderately successful first season back. Larry Pegram plans to race, no? What the heck are you saying that DMG did to the Japanese that would dissuade Ducati? >>> Why should one factory have the ear of DMG yet the others are given no say at all? They don't. That is silly to even posit. You seem to view DMG as some kind of malevolent moron. The corruption and incompetence was with their predecessors and the Japan Inc bullies. It really has nowhere to go but up. I don't think you are really grasping that. How would Buell fair if ASBK turned into mainly an 1125RR series? How did that type of scenario work out for Ducati? DMG's aces in the hole? Erik Buell, one Michael Jordan Motorsports, a slew of privateer teams that are totally jazzin' to race, Michael Czysz? Walter Roeric | ||
| Jimidan |
You seem to think that it is "the system" that produces champions. My sense is that MotGP champions will be champions no matter where or what type of system they come from. The only issue is the one of smaller bikes that give huge advantages to smaller, lighter riders. I think that sucks, but the size issue is true in many sports, some favor larger stature while some give smaller humans a major advantage. I think that MotoGP bikes should be like racehorses...they make all horses carry the same weight in a race. If the jockey is light they add weight to the saddle. If you are going to make everything else as equal as possible with spec tires, gas, cc's, etc., why not equal weight of riders? I thoroughly enjoy watching all levels of motorcycle racing from track days to MotoGP. Some of the most entertaining racing in this country are being held at WERA and CCS racing. These are America's best kept secret.} | ||
| Oddball |
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Sep/090919a.ht m Honda Release Confirms They Are Shuttering Corona, Etc. Saturday, September 19, 2009 This just in: Honda Racing announcement For immediate release: Torrance, CA: During the 2009 AMA/DMG Road Racing series, American Honda Motor Company, Inc. contracted team personnel, including team Honda rider Neil Hodgson, to the Corona Extra Honda race team. Corona Extra Honda race team participated in this series with our award-winning 2009 CBR1000RR in the AMA Superbike class, unfortunately participation in this series did not ... unfortunately participation in this series did not meet our racing goals and objectives. meet our racing goals and objectives. Regrettably the current AMA/DMG racing environment does not align with our company goals. Effective today 9/18/09, AHM will not be renewing contracts with Corona Extra Racing and will be terminating the on-site Road Race operations by 9/30/09. All assets will be put into storage for future consideration. Team staff was informed of these changes today at 1:00PM PDT. | ||
| Anonymous |
How completely absurd to think that AMA/DMG listens to Buell instead of the other factories. Anyone who says that is a fool or is being paid to say it. AMA/DMG wrote rules to make the racing closer between all brands, and to bring more brands in. It did both things. The racing was spectacular and close this year. Honda is using this as an excuse for their desire to pull out of racing for budgetary reasons. The US is more about cruisers and the bean counters don't see enough sales to justify racing. Honda pulled out of F1 car racing also last year. It surely didn't ruin that sport, and in fact their abandoned team did a heck of a lot better than when they were involved! The good old days of Soichiro are gone, now it's a bland corporate entity run by accountants. They only really like to compete where they have a significant advantage like in IndyCar, where they are the only engine, or in classes where they have the most money, like MotoGP. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Honda couldn't win, so they didn't wanna play. Good night, losers. | ||
| Backcountryme |
The hole that Honda has left will be filled by someone else. THe US is to important to the motorcycle companies of the world. But the AMA, and racing in the US will continue on without them. I think that the next few years we are going to see some great racing here. | ||
| Davegess |
Anonymous +1 | ||
| Liquorwhere |
The company makes generators and weed wackers . . over the years they have certainly had their moments in racing and there is no doubt, with their hundreds of millions in racing resources, that they do some good stuff. But if a guy showed up to take your daughter out and was riding a Honda . . . you have to admit your first thought would be "wimp". I'd far rather see BMW in the mix. This was the biggest year of racing I can recall and it was nice, having seen so many years of empty stands at Daytona, to see a robust and excited crowd. Honda makes some of the finest motorcycles in the world, as well as the rest of the things you mention, Kawasaki makes heavy equipment and ship engines, Yamaha started making musical instruments and still does...why is it a negative that there is diversity within their company to draw on to make better products? BMW started making airplanes and engines for airplanes, probably still would be had it not been for the loss of the war and the restrictions put on the military after that war. Let's not forget that Honda's introduction of the CB750 damn near killed off the British, European and American light weight cruiser's do the quality and dependability of the product coupled with the excellent power and handling for the time. Another feather in an extremely impressive cap is the marketing campaigns for the Honda that helped to take away the stigma of motorcycle riders in the 1950's and 1960's, they also have the BEST selling motorcycle of all time, 50 million Honda Cubs sold world wide. That is a pretty impressive accomplishment. If you have never ridden an RC51 or CBR1000RR, or CRF450R I will tell you, wimp has nothing to do with it, my 450 would happily slam your ass in the dirt leaving you crawling around wondering what hit you..... BMW racing is up and coming for sure, but I don't think a factory team is in the future for the AMA. I agree with Jaimec that some of the coolest racing I had ever seen was the BMW Boxer cup and Greg White only concerned with not losing to the single girl in the race..and almost losing to her. Still I think it would be a excellent place to showcase the bike as it is very powerful, and Troy Corser and Xaus are doing a good job in WSBK with the machine in the first year as is Biaggi with the RSV4, in the current economic climate the US may not be viewed as the lucrative market it once was. Don't forget that Honda employs many Americans, the Goldwing is made in the US, and many other products, so their disappearance in American Racing is significant. HRC has produced AMA Champions ie, Nicky Hayden, and WSBK Champions ie Colin Edwards, MotoGP Champions ie Nicky, Valentino, Mick Doohan, Alex Criville and many Isle of Man victories dating back to the 1950's. Any manufacturer bailing out on a series can have a negative effect, to be more inclusive of manufacturers is more beneficial than to exclude more. Hopefully for american race fans Honda will reconsider and field a team. It is also important to point out that HRC sponsored more than one race on the DMG/AMA schedule. Those dollars will have to be replaced by someone, and we all know those dollars are hard to come by these days. As far as a robust crowd in Daytona for the 200...I didn't see that huge robust crowd you are talking about. It used to boggle my mind when I would make the trek across the state as to why the stands would be so empty and to a degree it still does, but I do see a vilifying of motorcycles happening all over again, the laws in Florida are changing or have changed to target motorcyclists, specifically those that ride a sportbike and the general perception seems to be one of "too dangerous" to pass on to the posterity. I just want to point out that saying Honda "had their moments in racing" is like saying John Holmes had sex a few times....please...Honda has been a dominate force world wide in racing. If you don't like the brand, fine, but facts are facts. It is the same fact I like to point out when people say the Buell is not innovative and I point out how many other manufacturers are emulating the technological and styling cues....facts are facts. | ||
| Backcountryme |
Honda is a force in world wide racing. But they have also pulled out of Formula 1. I think that their leaving AMA has less to do with DMG and more to do with their lack luster results in the past years and their sales already being low. It takes money to sponsor a team, and if sales are low there is no money. | ||
| Court |
The is the most excitement I've seen in motorcycle racing in 20 years . . . Finally it's fun to take the entire family to the track, know you'll see great competition and have a great time . . heck, we even take the dog! It is so cool to see a racing program that literally anyone can win on any given day . . to see 6 brands in the top 10 spots and finishes that take me back to Parker and Carr at Springfield. Racing is a spectator sport again and I'm really excited about next year. | ||
| Backcountryme |
I am jonesing for the start of the season already. Man last year was cool. I didn't get to make it out to any races, but I sure will next year. I just really hope Buell can keep Danny. He needs to be on that bike next year and make it 2 in a row. | ||
| Gregtonn |
I keep hearing how the technology used on factory Superbikes won't trickle down to street bikes if the factory teams leave. If you believe that how can you explain this? Among the first things to be removed and replaced with non-factory parts are these: Stock factory supplied brakes. Stock factory supplied suspension. Stock factory supplied clutch. Stock factory supplied foot and hand controls. Stock factory supplied exhaust. Stock factory supplied ignition control unit. And much more. So where is all this "trickle down technology"? G | ||
| Blake |
Good point Greg. I've always wondered the same thing. The trickle down is probably mostly in basic chassis and engine architecture, the wheels and body styling. | ||
| Elvis |
I'd say that, for the most part, the idea of "trickle down" is a myth perpetuated by the factories to justify the advantages they get from their exotic parts. For example, let's consider one of the key differences between AMA and WSBK - the pistons and connecting rods. In WSBK, the race pistons and connecting rods are stronger, lighter (and MUCH more expensive) than the stock parts allowing them to rev higher and quicker and support higher compression ratios. There's not a lot of mystery. Everybody knows that stronger lighter parts will perform better, but it's not worth the expense to include them on the street bike . . . particularly when they can just throw the stock parts away and race the good stuff. So race after race, year after year, the race parts get better and better as they are stressed to the limit and improved to better handle the stress. Meanwhile the street parts aren't being stressed or refined in any way from direct race experience. With that example in mind, I would propose that the WSBK system actually PREVENTS improvements to the street bikes that would otherwise happen if they were actually racing those street components. | ||
| Blake |
They do have Superstock racing too though. |
