| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Bottom line. If Joe Schmo racer showed up to an AMA SBK race and had his Buell 1125RR go through tech, would it pass muster as a race prepped 1125R or not? You might can hang your hat on one discrepancy, the airbox. But even that has been approved and allowed by the sanctioning body. So the answer is that yes, it would pass muster as race prepped 1125R. That's all that we need to know. It's legal and it's doing well right out of the box. Go Buell Racing! | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Still waiting for ingress of ordinance... I hope someone takes notice of the huge amount of flack I am absorbing (on other forums) over a bike that I don't even care for... I just consider it a family obligation. What I still need is documentation that shows factories or factory race teams can build race bikes, and if so, what is the difference between a homologated "street" bike and a homologated "race" bike. The big stink now surrounds the fact that everyone's homologated bike is street-legal, while Buell has a homologated street bike, and a homologated "race" bike- which is being argued is against the rules and unfair to the other teams. I will continue to hold my position as long as I can... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Matt...
LOL. So its a conspiracy of ignorant redneck colonials against those sneaky foreigners then...  What advantage, specifically, did Buell get over any other manufacturer (i.e. the aformentioned Ducatti 1098RR. Err, I mean the Ducatti 1098R F09? Or over the Kawasaki factory team? And don't quote fuzzy things like "rules changes". Tell me what advantages, from an engineering or physics standpoint, that Buell is getting that are outside the existing established rule book? I'm enjoying the sound and the fury here for sure... its a fun discussion. But all the objections just sound more and more lame... Or maybe you spotted the new secret flux capacitor hiding under the left pod?  | ||
| Spike |
I don't know how it works on your planet, but on mine words are the most effective means of communication we have available to us. The words of every piece of documentation Buell has released on the bike conflict with the words in the AMA rule book. That'll be viewed as a discrepancy by everyone who thinks words matter. Until you can convince the rest of the world that facts can be communicated without the use of language, you'll have to accept Buell being labeled as a cheater in this case. Just out of curiosity- if words don't matter, how do you even know what my position is on the subject? Has it occurred to you that the facts and reality might be that I fully approve of the 1125RR being allowed to race, but you've just been stuck on stupid words that don't mean anything? | ||
| Spike |
Scroll up and read Bads1's post from 1:59pm. What bike is Larry Pegram riding? How about Barrett Long? | ||
| Elvis |
I find it interesting that some of the same people who said: "A bike with ZTL brake and fuel in frame could never compete against 'real' racebikes." . . . are now saying: "Hey, no fair! You put an 'R' in the name. That'll give Buell an unfair advantage." I also find it interesting that after the VR1000 and XBRR and 1125's in Sportbike controversies, some of the loudest complaints seem to be coming now when the bike has no actual mechanical or technical advantage that anyone can name. It seems like the haters are really getting nervous now. Good. | ||
| Blake |
Spike, By "words" I'm calling your stuck on stupid semantic objections. You cannot show us any rule in the AMA SBK rulebook that prohibits the building and sale of a racing machine and selling it for racing to racers. You flat out ignore that Ducati Corse do exactly the same with their 1198R F09; they create a race prepped version of the 1198R and sell it to racers for racing. You're still stuck on stupid. RedBuellJunkie, Your approach is flawed. In racing, one needn't find a rule that specifically "allows" something. The opposite is more applicable, that if you want to show something illegal you must find a rule that prohibits it, otherwise it may be assumed to be legal. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I am totally in support of this bike. In Spike's defense, I think the point of his arguments are that if Buell had just presented this a little differently, there would have been no way for anyone to cry "FOWL!!!". What's done is done. The bike was declared legal. If Buell debuts a street legal bike labeled "1125RR" next week the whole controversy goes away. If Buell doesn't debut a street legal 1125RR, the arguing will continue but it will still be legal to race in Superbike. | ||
| Elvis |
I think the point of his arguments are that if Buell had just presented this a little differently, there would have been no way for anyone to cry "FOWL!!!". I think it's true that if they had presented it differently there wouldn't be this controversy, and that's what's so frustrating. Press releases don't make pistons stronger. Press releases don't make valves open and close more quickly. The anti-Buell argument is so . . . empty . . . it's hard to argue against. There's nothing there. It's like trying to push against thin air. | ||
| Altima02 |
Spike, I agree to the fact that they have not publicly published the exact combination of letters: "The 1125RR is based on the 1125R" Though we did see that on the last page.... But they do say it is the same chassis, that the engine is the same that they use in the 1125R, that has just been modified to AMA-legal spec, and that a couple other legal race mods were added. Now you may be harping over the fact that they didn't use the correct wordage in their very first press release, but can you truly not see that it is based on the 1125R? They say they use the same chassis, they mod the engine, they even say they kept the same cc displacement. Seriously, same chasis, "modify", not "a new" engine. If suzuki didn't publicly say exactly "Mladin's bike is based on the street legal GSX-R1000" but instead said that "Rockstar Mikita uses the same chassis as a GSXR1000 and modifies the engine" Would you cry foul on them? Really? Would you truely not accept that his bike is BASED on a GSXR-1000? Or maybe you actually do and your just saying one sentence in the press release would have save a lot of trouble. I'll agree to that!  But it sounds like you agree that this bike should be illegal and that they changed the rules for Buell, and I don't agree with that. (Message edited by altima02 on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Altima02 |
I'm sure they passed the homolagation for the 1125R, and the "second R" is to be considered a racing subsidiary installed race kit. Kinda like Buell Racing is to Ducati Corse or HRC and 1125RR is to the 1198F09. So if you think of BUELL RACING introducing this race spec'd bike, instead of BUELL MOTORCYCLE CORP., it would make more sense. I think that is what makes the selling exclusively to racing licensed buyers appropriate. Its not BMC making a special non-street-legal bike selling to racers, but BUELL RACING selling a race-prepared bike to racers. I'm really not trying to argue, but just trying to make sense of things. Which doesn't really matter since its already approved (Message edited by altima02 on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Altima02 |
This was just posted. It explains a lot, including why the 1125RR was allowed. http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=3 7360 (Message edited by altima02 on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Moxnix |
Wow. Issues explained clearly. | ||
| Trojan |
What advantage, specifically, did Buell get over any other manufacturer (i.e. the aformentioned Ducatti 1098RR. Err, I mean the Ducatti 1098R F09? Or over the Kawasaki factory team? I never claimed any unfair advantage was made, and it really doesn't matter if any real advantage is made or not, but the perception that the rules have been circumvented somehow. The only thing that I am concerned about is the rules, so don't really care if it is Buell, Ducati or Royal Enfield that suddenly debuts a new model that is clearly in contravention of the letter and spirit of the existing rules on the eve of a race weekend. The fact that the organisers choose to amend or re-imterpret the their own rule book at such short notice is what makes the whole thing open to such widespread criticism outside of the hallowed halls of Buell forums. It really doesn't matter what Buell owners and enthusiasts (the minority) think about it, but what the general perception is amongst the people that follow racing in the US (and further afield). Buell could be seen as the brave minnows fighting against the might of the Japanese factories, but by a combination of their own poor PR and the organisers poor management and structure Buell have now appeared to be the bad guys twice this season. I thought that both parties would have approached this differently, and Buell could have made it so much easier by releasing a 'race kit' rather than a complete bike for sale. After that point it wouldn't matter who put the kits together, factory or team. It would have followed the letter and spirit of the current rules without having to have a special mention or ruling specifically admitting it and inviting criticism, simple. It now doesn't matter if the bike is good or not, because the perception outside of the Buell bleachers is that the rules have been fixed in Buells favour and so any results will be tinged with controversy. Blake, The Ducati 1098R F09 is not available to the public and is not homologated for AMA competition. It is a homologation special purely for WSB and domestic Superbike racing in countries that still have 'full fat' Superbikes instead of dressed up Superstock spec bikes. The rules in WSB are completely different so you can't use it as an example to bolster the argument in AMA/DMG. By the way, if you think that a street bike cannot be turned into a world class Superbike take a look at who topped the timesheets at Imola today. Jonathan Rae on a Tem Kate CBR1000R, which like ALL of Ten Kate bikes starts life as a stock showroom model at the start of the season. | ||
| Dentguy |
It now doesn't matter if the bike is good or not, because the perception outside of the Buell bleachers is that the rules have been fixed in Buells favour and so any results will be tinged with controversy. So true. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds like a bunch of whining to me. Hey Altima, you are ruining a perfectly good pi&&ing contest with facts: http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37360 That will take all the fun out of it... (Message edited by reepicheep on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Xb984r |
"Taylor is out there but two seconds off the pace now. Not unexpected for a new bike. What will be telling is how much improvment they get over the weekend." Dave is this a new bike or a modified 1125R which Knapp has been riding in DSB, can't have it both ways. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Reepicheap- Great post. I'm sure the  will go on for a few more pages however... | ||
| Duggram |
Knapp was riding for Latus in DSB. The press release said he would be riding on his in SB. | ||
| Reepicheep |
For the record, I was wrong! I still don't understand what parts are on the 1125R that violate any of the existing rules for superbike. Either their spirit, or their letter. The DMG fellow sounded like they really have a good plan and have thought things through. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...I don't know how it works on your planet, but on mine words are the most effective means of communication we have available to us... Spike, How does your verbal literalism work in this case? Two women were in the midst of a sexual act. Both used the same three words..."no"..."don't"..."stop". Which woman was in a state of exquisite joy and which was being raped? "Take a person by what he means, not by what he says."_Grandpa Tonn G (Message edited by Gregtonn on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Dentguy |
Dave is this a new bike or a modified 1125R which Knapp has been riding in DSB, can't have it both ways. I'm going to guess that has a lot to do with the whole DMG decision and this statement. “That’s the two defining factors that allowed us to homologate it and bring it in the front door,” Ludington continued. “Basically, they [Buell] wanted to go Superbike racing, and they said, ‘Will you give us some special allowances for Superbike?’ We said, ‘What do you have in mind?’ They laid them out, and it was like, ‘There’s no way we’re going to allow all that stuff so you can go Superbike racing. However, if you are willing to build and make these bikes available, they come in comparable to what our highest priced other racebike is out there and you’re willing to support them at the factory level for people who want to buy them we will be willing to homologate the bike for you.’ If they allowed all the modifications to the bike and it did well, it would just fuel the fire about the 1125R being allowed in the sportbike class. Instead take all those mods and build a new bike (1125RR) with a seperate approval to try and draw a line between the bikes in the two classes. Just a thought. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I know that it's practice, but Taylor is only .5 second off of Mladin's and Pegram's time. Pretty encouraging out of the box! | ||
| Trojan |
However, if you are willing to build and make these bikes available, they come in comparable to what our highest priced other racebike is out there and you’re willing to support them at the factory level for people who want to buy them we will be willing to homologate the bike for you.’ And to hell with the rules  What happens next week when Ducati approach the organisers and offer to sell a batch of race ready 1198RS at reduced price to competitors? Or maybe HRC/Suzuki/Kawasaki step in with a boat load of factory spec 1000R's at discount prices for licence holders? As innocuous as it may seem to some bystanders, this decision could (if the factories can be bothered) open the door to a free for all and the rules will be left in the trash. The losers will just those people that the organisers were trying to attract at the beginning of the year. (Message edited by trojan on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Spike |
From AMA's technical director:
That settles it. If the AMA decides it's going to let non-street-certified bikes in on the basis of expanding the grid and (this is the big part) they're willing to apply the same standards for all manufacturers, there's nothing for anyone to complain about. In spite of that I'm sure we can expect Dean Adams to keep up the Perez Hilton impersonation and cry about the bike all season. Requiring the manufacturers to sell and support these homologation specials is a big deal, and I think it'll do a lot for privateers in the sport. DMG has gotten off to a rough start this season, but it does look like they're genuinely improving the racing both for the riders and for the spectators. So now the only question is- Can I see this thing in action next month at VIR?  | ||
| Spike |
That's easy. The one that said, "No, don't stop!" as a complete sentence was enjoying it. The one that said, "No!" "Don't!" and "Stop!" as a series of one-worded statements was being raped. Words have meaning. Proper grammar makes all the difference. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...As innocuous as it may seem to some bystanders, this decision could (if the factories can be bothered) open the door to a free for all and the rules will be left in the trash... YEEE HAAA! Now we're back to real racing and innovation, not spec writing to make everything "fair". G | ||
| Fast1075 |
I Like Okra  | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Thank you, roadracingworld.com for supplying the ordinance that has been skillfully placed on target- and it hit hard! I love the smell of napalm in the afternoon, it's the smell of... legitimacy.  | ||
| Swampdog225 |
I love how this is turning into a soap opera that never ends. Transcript for Press Conference with DMG/AMA's Ollie Dean http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090717r.ht m I guess Ollie set em straight. N'uff said. |
