| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
DSB practice now. Barnes #5 and Knapp #7. Didn't see Eslick. | ||
| Bott |
Knapp is making better laps on his DSB bike than on the RR. hopefully just a setup problem on the RR | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Thank you, Fresno- I thought I had run out of ammo... | ||
| Indybuell |
Knapp 15th fastest in Mid-Ohio Practice. Hayes Crashes. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=37356 | ||
| Smoke |
hughlysses, i think #1 should read: Buell followed the homologation process that DMG proscribed and the 1125RR is legal for American Sportbike. tim | ||
| Trojan |
Anybody tried to buy an Aprilia RSV4 lately? Of any description or specification? They are in the dealers now over here. You could go out and buy one today, along with an official Aprilia race kit. However, you could not buy a RSV4RR without road equipment and with a different airbox etc straight from the factory. Besides, the RSV4, like the Ducati 1098F08/F09 isn't even homologated for AMA Superbike so it isn't a good example to use. They are now offering a kitted version for racing employing a selection of performance parts which meet the letter and intent of the sanctioning body rules. I fail utterly to see how one could argue they are cheating or been given an unfair advantage. Regardless of any advantage, they do NOT meet the letter or intent of the rules, otherwise DMG would not have had to make a public statement specifically allowing it! The kit parts may be allowed, and that is what Buell should sell to stay within the rules. Selling a complete competition ready bike is NOT within the letter of the law, and if Honda did it there would be an outcry from people here saying they were cheating. Rules are there to be followed in racing, and organisers need to stand by the rules they set, not change at the drop of a hat the night before a race meeting because the organisers want a particular brand to participate. If the rules specifically allowed it then the big 4 Japanese companies would have done it before now. | ||
| Reepicheep |
No need to accuse anyone of intellectual dishonesty. So you are claiming that when anyone uses the term "introduce", it is a safe and reasonable logical assertion that the thing being introduced is is NOT "something that previously existed but now with a distinct but defined and finite set of modifications?" Huh? The more reasonable conclusion would be that the thing being introduced need only be reasonably distinct from that which was already known. It could be the same thing, but with significant set of defined variations. You know, like a pre-installed set of AMA approved race parts? Given the context of the rest of the press release, if somebody reaches the wrong conclusion, they had to work pretty hard for it, or they went into it looking for a fight. A reasonable person would use "introduce" to introduce a new variation of the 1125R... one with a pre-installed option package intended to be AMA superbike legal. A reasonable person wanting to build a brand new superbike from scratch would also probably have "introduced" it, but would have added subsequent qualifiers to their sentence along the lines of "all new" or "never before seen" or "ground up"... And they would not have called it the 1125RR. They would have called it the "uber-gixer-masher-destroyer-hammer-GSZXR1-1000". And put brighter stickers on it  Let me ask my 10 year old... I asked him: "Buell has a motorcycle called the 1125R that is a nice street motorcycle. They just *introduced* a *new* racing motorcycle called the 1125RR. Do you think the 1125RR is completely different then the 1125R? Or do you think the 1125RR is like the 1125R, but with parts that make it a better racing bike?" I emphasized the word "introduced". Guess what he answered Try it yourself on some random coworker... Knapp is only a second off the 1098 now! Hope he is tuning and sand bagging!  | ||
| Fast1075 |
Bill...  | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Can someone please provide the text for the rule that states a team or individual can build a race bike that meets all of the specs as prescribed by the rulebook, and is therefore legal to compete, but if the same exact race bike is built by a factory or factory-associated race team it is illegal for competition. I'm taking serious hits from the tree line out here... would really appreciate a napalm strike- if there's any Strike/CAP in the area, a little help would be good about now...  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
RBJ--I really don't think the AMA cares who builds the bikes, as long as it meets the specifications. I would be shocked if there is a rule that would prohibit a manufacturer to do what Buell is doing...are people from other forums implying there is a rule prohibiting the manufacturer from building the race bike? | ||
| Court |
>>>Regardless of any advantage, they do NOT meet the letter or intent of the rules, otherwise DMG would not have had to make a public statement specifically allowing it! Are you referring to Buell or KTM? They issued statements about both firms. They always, as best I can recall, announce, kinda like the hoopla surrounding the BMW in superbike, when a new bike is approved for competition. What if . . . as an example Buell RACING and Buell MOTORCYCLE were as separate as Suzuki and Michael Jordan Racing? Would it matter if Buell Racing were a different company? | ||
| Spike |
Seriously Bill, read the press release. They used the term introduced. You do not make introductions for things that are already familiar. All twelve definitions of the word indicate first presentation or acquaintance. The object being introduced was not a series of modifications. The object being introduced was not a collection of parts. The object being introduced was a motorcycle. This is basic grammar. In case that somehow isn't clear that a new motorcycle is the object being introduced, they even call it by a distinct name. They go out of their way to clarify that the motorcycle being introduced is intended for competition and race-use only. The motorcycle that you are claiming they are referring to is for street use. At no point to they refer to the bike as a modified 1125R. They refer to it as an 1125RR throughout the release because they consider it a separate motorcycle. If it were not a separate motorcycle, the AMA wouldn't have to announce that the 1125RR is approved.
You worded it poorly. It does not matter if an 1125RR is like the 1125R. The 1125RR does not need to be completely different than the 1125R. The rules do not say anything about being like another bike. Regardless of their similarities, the 1125RR is not the 1125R. Buell doesn't claim that to be true and neither does the AMA. You and your 10 year old can call it anything you like, The people that matter (Buell and the AMA) call them separate motorcycles. The rules state street-certified production model. The 1125RR is not a street-certified production model. Honestly, do you think a 1098R is *not* similar to the 1098? The two bikes would appear identical to someone who was unfamiliar with them. However, the similarities are irrelevant because they are considered distinct by Ducati and the AMA. The 1098R requires homologation just like the 1098. It does not get a free pass simply because the 1098 is homologated. Why do you think Ducati should follow different rules than Buell? For what it's worth- I've presented the scenario using exact quotes from the Buell press release and the AMA rule book to four different people. None of them concluded that the 1125RR is actually legal because the 1125R is legal. | ||
| Blake |
>>>Selling a complete competition ready bike is NOT within the letter of the law, and if Honda did it there would be an outcry from people here saying they were cheating. Matt, You are dead wrong. There is no prohibition against anyone race prepping and selling race ready superbikes for competition in AMA SBK. That is exactly what HRC used to do; they just didn't do so for any interested professional racer. They only supplied their racing machines to their own team. How is what Buell Racing is doing any different from what HRC did? Please don't resurrect the silly issue of the extra "R". That's a losing point too as there is no rule prohibiting any race bike builder from calling his/her product anything he/she/they like. | ||
| Larryjohn |
Looks like Knapp is 11th in basic qualifying. 1.765 off the lead. Improved from practice. I wish I could be there this weekend. | ||
| Spike |
Could you pass that information along to Ducati? I think the worldwide body of racing organizations owes them a few decades of reparations. | ||
| Blake |
Spike, To quote General Honore, "Don't get stuck on stupid." Please show us where in the rules it states that a race bike builder cannot sell his product or call it by a different name than the street bike from which it was born? You cannot. Your entire argument hangs from the bewilderingly ridiculous thread of the added "R" given to the SBK form of the 1125R. You gotta admit that is #@$% silly. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
best lap 1.268 so far keep track here. http://wire.ama-cycle.org/http://wire.ama-cycle.org/ (Message edited by ••••••••••••• on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Swampdog225 |
Enough of the squabbling over wording or the interpretation of the rulebook. LiveTiming indicates that Taylor Knapp, is running 11th in practice: 1.756 seconds of of the leader Hayden. His best lap so far is 01:26.810! For those of us who care more about the racing than the rulebook, he's beating more than 2/3rd of the field in practice. People focus on this, not only is he riding the bike for the 1st time in competition, he is doing rather well. Also, lets not excuse the fact that Shawn Higbee on his 1125R is not far off of the pace either. I don't know why he's that far off of the pace. Let's hope things improve as he is only 12 laps into his practice run. GO KNAPP & HIGBEE!!!!! GO BUELL RACING!!!!! | ||
| Blake |
Could you pass that information along to Ducati? I think the worldwide body of racing organizations owes them a few decades of reparations." I have no idea what you mean to imply with that. Try to stick to the issue at hand. If you are referring to the Ducati "R" models, well my dear fellow Buell enthusiast, the "R" models such as the Ducati 1198R ares the homologated street bikes upon which their Ducati Corse 1198R F09 SBK racing machines are based. Two different names, one for the actual racing machine, one for the street bike. Same-same Buell 1125R and Buell Racing 1125RR. Regardless, even if Duc did offer a street bike called 1198R F09, the point would be moot. There is no rule prohibiting any racing bike builder from calling his product whatever he/she/they like. They could call it "Nancy" and the rules don't care. The rules only require that it be based on a street bike that has been homologated for the series. It's quite simple. No shame in being wrong. But sheesh, no shame in admitting it either. | ||
| Bads1 |
1. Tommy Hayden (Suz GSX-R1000 K9), 1:25.054 2. Aaron Yates (Suz GSX-R1000 K9), 1:25.190 3. Josh Hayes (Yam YZF-R1), 1:25.219 4. Ben Bostrom (Yam YZF-R1), 1:25.544 5. Geoff May (Suz GSX-R1000 K9), 1:25.566 6. Larry Pegram (Duc 1098R), 1:25.960 7. Jake Holden (Hon CBR1000RR), 1:26.025 8. Mat Mladin (Suz GSX-R1000 K9), 1:26.035..... * 9. Michael Laverty (Suz GSX-R1000 K9), 1:26.171 10. Blake Young (Suz GSX-R1000 K9), 1:26.604 11. Taylor Knapp (Buell 1125RR), 1:26.810 .... * 12. Neil Hodgson (Hon CBR1000RR), 1:27.242 13. David Anthony (Suz GSX-R1000 K8), 1:27.572 14. Chris Ulrich (Suz GSX-R1000 K9), 1:28.075 15. Matt Lynn (Suz GSX-R1000 K8), 1:28.407 16. Shane Narbonne (Suz GSX-R1000 K8), 1:28.451 17. Russell Holland (Yam YZF-R1), 1:29.324 18. Shawn Higbee (Buell 1125R), 1:29.533 19. Barrett Long (Duc 1098R), 1:29.919 20. Scott Jensen (Suz GSX-R1000 K8), 1:30.056 21. Dominic Jones (Suz GSX-R1000 K8), 1:30.308 22. Dean Mizdal (Suz GSX-R1000 K8), 1:30.650 23. Johnny Rock Page (Yam YZF-R1), 1:30.958 24. Greg Winslow (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:31.044 25. Mark Crozier (Suz GSX-R1000 K8), 1:31.607 26. James Kerker (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:31.777 27. Eric Haugo (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:31.866 28. Tim Hunt (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:31.913 29. Scotty Van Hawk (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:32.645 (Message edited by bads1 on July 17, 2009) (Message edited by bads1 on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Elvis |
Please show us where in the rules it states that a race bike builder cannot sell his product or call it by a different name than the street bike from which it was born? You cannot. Your entire argument hangs from the bewilderingly ridiculous thread of the added "R" given to the SBK form of the 1125R. You gotta admit that is #@$% silly. I think this is the best, simplest argument I have heard on this whole issue. The rulebook says the bike has to be based on a street-bike . . . which it obviously is. Many have made claims about what teams are allowed to do or what factories are allowed to do (who makes the BMW by the way? Obviously they weren't being pulled off showroom floors in March) but they haven't quoted any rules - just referred to how things are done. Since there seems to be a slight confusion regarding the semantics of the rules, it seems like we should ask for an interpretation . . . but the AMA has already offered their interpretation, haven't they? (Message edited by elvis on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
Dana, Nice use of the "*". Note too the position of former World Superbike Champion Neil Hodgeson riding the factory Honda. Still just practice, but it is promising, astounding actually for the first time out of the box racing machine. | ||
| Trojan |
You are dead wrong. There is no prohibition against anyone race prepping and selling race ready superbikes for competition in AMA SBK. That is exactly what HRC used to do; they just didn't do so for any interested professional racer. They only supplied their racing machines to their own team. How is what Buell Racing is doing any different from what HRC did? Please don't resurrect the silly issue of the extra "R". That's a losing point too as there is no rule prohibiting any race bike builder from calling his/her product anything he/she/they like. I think the abject word here is DID, not does. The DMG organisation has introduced a completely new set of rules this year so anything that went before doesn't really matter. What is important (more important that Buell introducing the 1125RR) is that the rules have been tuned over on the eve of a race meeting to suit one particular manufacturer. As far as I can make out there has been no period of consultation with anyone else involved on this, and it makes a very important distinction between what was deemed legal before and what has been allowed now. Those of you that think that adherence to a set of rules in racing is petty or squabbling may think differently when one of the major players turns up with a 210bhp WSB spec 'streetbike variant' for next year's AMA series, but then of course the rules would be different for them Rules are what keeps racing honest, and much has been made on here in thepast because Honda were found to be slightly outisde the rules and were disqualified from results (last years Daytona 200?). If the organisers can change rules just to suit themselves it makes a mockery of an organised Superbike championship. You might as well chuck out the rule book and run an open Formula Extreme class where anything goes. Much was made on this board about the new brrom at DMG sweeping clean and making racing more enjoyable and understandable for the guy in the street. The whole point of the rules was to have Superstock spec bikes racing to limit costs? This ruling goes against that and just makes 'Amerecan Superbike' more of an anomaly and less connected to other Superbike competitions than it already was. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, I'm afraid your argument has turned into opinion much more than fact. Here's a fact: HRC is perfectly free to again offer race prepped AMA legal superbike versions of their CBR1000 street bike for use in AMA SBK racing; the rules in that regard have not changed and their is absolutely no prohibition against ANY race bike builder from doing so. Fact: Any race bike builder is perfectly free to offer their AMA SBK legal racing machines for sale anytime they wish. There is no rule against it, period. They are also free to designate their product by any name they like; there is no rule prohibiting that. If you can show me where the rules state that a racing machine builder is prohibited from offering his product for sale, I'll be happy to reconsider. Doesn't Ducati Corse sell their racing version of the 1198R? I believe they call it the "1198R F09", yes? Maybe you can show me where I can purchase an "1198R F09" street bike? | ||
| Bads1 |
Blake, I think Taylor Knapp is up in coming in a big way. See how he has to switch makes of bike's from Daytona Superbike to the Gixxer for Superbike in past races??? Also hes been at Eslick's heal's or infront of him in past few races?? This guy is HOT out there and to be running it out of his own pocket basically. Hope he's riding a Buell in the future!!! (Message edited by bads1 on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Spike |
The only thing "#@$% silly" is the way you twist Buells own words and make them your own. Buell does not call the 1125RR an 1125R. Nothing in the documentation calls it the "SBK form of the 1125R". You made that up. If Buell and the AMA called the 1125RR a modified form of the 1125R we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I've stated that from the very beginning. The only way you can say that the Buell 1125RR is actually a Buell 1125R is by ignoring Buells own press release on the subject.
Not same-same. Ducati races the 1098R, so they are required to sell the 1098R. Buell races the 1125RR, they are not required to sell the 1125RR. If the AMA considers the 1098R separate from the 1098 and requires both of them to be homologated, they should treat Buell the same way.
Exactly. Except Buell doesn't say their bike is based on the 1125R. I've said it several times now, if they called it a modified 1125R there would be no discussion. Buell considers it a separate bike. | ||
| Bads1 |
Ohhhhhhhh Booooooooooyyyyyy we will go in circles.... what a joke. Matt you fly here and run the American series. Think about it you can stop running a small Buell aftermarket parts web site and Spike you can be his assistant. Argument over then... you guys make the rules. | ||
| Anonymous |
The 1125RR is a separate bike, and it is based on an 1125R -- simple, isn't it. The frame, to answer a question someone posted, is a dead stock 1125R piece minus the powder-coating. The engine is that of an 1125R plus the usual power-up parts . . . | ||
| Hughlysses |
Who would have ever thought the most contentious series of threads in the history of Badweb would be about Buell motorcycles and between Buell enthusiasts?  SacBORG only had 3 posts on it as of last night; 2 against (one by Dyna of course!) and 1 for. | ||
| Blake |
Spike, Ducati corse don't race an "1198R". They race and sell for racing-only a machine that they call the "1198R F09". I'm not going by "words", I'm going on facts and reality. You are trying to make a flipping PR press release out to be an application form for AMA SBK homologation. That is @#$% silly. Buell had no need to do so. The 1125R was already homologated for AMA SBK racing. The 1125RR is the product of that. It is the Buell Racing version of the 1125R just like the Ducati 1198R F09 is the racing version of the 1198R street bike. But the press release didn't say that? Dude. You're stuck on stupid. |
