| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Stop by and I will introduce you to my wife, and I promise you I didn't make her new from scratch. (For starters, she is much too good looking for anything I could create...) From www.dictionary.com:
Two out of 12 official definitions meet your very narrow criteria for interpreting the single word "introduce", and them only weakly. I don't think the work "introduce" can be used to derive information about taxonomy or heritage. | ||
| Unibear12r |
+1 Fresno Got me watching again. Griping about semantics on the haters part. Get over it. Did you ever stop to think that this is the way DMG/AMA wants EVERYONE to be? And Buell is just the first to comply and work with them instead bitch and fight against a change for the better? | ||
| Fast1075 |
This has gotten silly...completely silly...here is the short of it. In racing there is a rule book...the rule book is equally applied to all entrants that the RULE BOOK declares are within the rules for the class in question...simple. The whole idea that the RR is in some way not within the rules is rediculous. It WOULD NOT EXIST if it wasn't legal. Who in their right mind would spend huge amounts of money and effort to produce a bike that is illegal to race in the class it was developed to run in? That would not only be stupid...it would ruin the maufacturer's reputation and credibility. I'm no rocket scientist nor am I even well educated...but a idiot with one eye and half a brain can understand this...if you don't understand it...read the freakin' rulebook. EVERY bike in SB is a RACING machine, based on a street legal bike (within the confines of the rulebook)...the racing version does not and should not be street legal or sold to the public at large...why? because some mouth breathing squid would come up with the money to buy one and then stuff it into the side of granny's minivan at 215...no one wants or needs that liability. I had to rant a bit...the whole thing need not be this complicated...It's like when I was a kid...Billy down the road owned the baseball and bat...if you wanted to play..you followed the rules or you watched...simple. I truly hope that whoever gets to race an RR positively kicks everybody's butt...It won't happen, at least at first anyway...it takes DEVELOPMENT...just because they are available absolutely does not mean they will be the big dog in the first race. I'm just glad it has gotten this far on the budget and R&D that has gotten it this far... Go Buell Racing!!! | ||
| Jscott |
I think Buell should use the "kill 'em with kindness" tactic with Dean Adams. Give him the old tour of the factory and the race shop. Let him interview Erik, Dave and Henry. Be open and frank with him for an exclusive SuperBike Planet article. Then we might just see him come around with a little more unbiased journalism. Even with his tirades against the DMG (some waranted) and Buell (misunderstood), he still has one of the top road racing news websites around. What could it hurt? | ||
| Crusty |
This is from the AMA site: The Buell 1125RR is the second motorcycle approved for premier class competition in AMA Pro Road Racing in the last three weeks. Just prior to the Fourth of July Weekend Red Bull U.S. Grand Prix at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, AMA Pro approved the KTM 990 Super Duke for competition in AMA Pro Daytona SportBike presented by AMSOIL. Why isn't anybody bitching about the Super Duke? | ||
| Altima02 |
Because it has no chance! lol Thats like Usain Bolt complaining that he has to race Michael Phelps in the 100M, because Phelps has new shoes that aren't available to the public. What will it matter?!? And that might even be the role with the new Buell. Hope not! | ||
| Elvis |
You know, here's a very interesting detail I just thought of . . . The BMW S1000 RR raced it's first race on March 1st at Phillip Island: http://bikerholic.com/2009/03/01/wsbk-corser-takes -eighth-in-race-one-for-bmw-motorrad-superbike-tea m/ But the street version wasn;t even SEEN until May: http://bikerholic.com/2009/05/10/bmw-s-1000-rr-rev ealed-at-monza/ And we didn't even learn the US price until this week. Why was it okay for BMW to race a bike that wasn't available as a street-bike? | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Based on this information from the AMA Pro Racing American Superbike rulebook (excerpted): 9. ENGINE MODIFICATIONS d. The valves, valve seats, guides, springs, tappets, oil seals, shims, cotter valve, spring base and spring retainers must be as originally produced by the manufacturer for the homologated machine. Valve spring shims are allowed. B. Camshaft (1) No modifications are allowed. (2) At the technical checks: for direct cam drive systems, the cam lobe lift is measured; for non direct cam drive systems (i.e. with rocker arms), the valve lift is measured. (3) The timing of the camshaft is free. C. Cam Sprockets (1) No dimensional modifications are allowed. (2) Cam sprockets may be slotted solely for the purpose of altering cam timing. (3) Press-on cam sprockets may be replaced with aftermarket steel bolt-on cam sprockets and adapters. (4) Aftermarket cam chain tensioners are permitted. 10. AIR BOX/INTAKE/SCOOPS A. Original equipment air box is required, without modification. And this information taken from the Buell 1125RR Press Release (excerpted): The Buell 1125RR features a modified Helicon 1125cc (103mm bore x 67.5mm stroke) liquid-cooled 72-degree V-Twin engine. Power increases come from components including a larger airbox and intake manifold, revised valves and camshafts, a higher compression ratio, titanium exhaust system and other weight-reduced components. I am really hoping that Buell does announce a forthcoming 2010 1125RR street bike, and does so quickly- because according to the information above, if there is no street-legal 1125RR, the race version is indeed illegal based upon the rulebook. Somebody throw me a line here... | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Why was it okay for BMW to race a bike that wasn't available as a street-bike? BMW and WSBK reached an agreement that the bike in question would be available to the public by a certain date. Yes, it was a concession and a good point. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Somebody throw me a line here... RBJ, Here's your line:-- May I quote from the AMA SUPERBIKE rules? d. Valves, Springs and Retainers i. Aftermarket or modified valves, springs, retainers and other valve-train components are permitted. The original number of valves must be maintained. e. Camshafts and Sprockets i. The original camshafts may be modified or replaced from those fitted to the homologated motorcycle. They must be approved and appear on the Eligible Equipment List. iii. Cam sprockets can be modified or replaced to allow the degreeing of camshafts. 3. The compression ratio is unrestricted. i. The exhaust pipes and silencers may be modified or replaced from those fitted to the homologated motorcycle. They must be approved and appear on the Eligible Equipment List The only thing that conflicts is the larger airbox, which I believe was allowed on the DSB Buells and may have been extended to the 1125RR....or it's a misprint from the Buell press release. | ||
| Rsh |
Redbuell, The majority of rules you copied apply to "Daytona Sportbike" spec's not " American Superbike" spec's. Something that would really help sort out the so called legality issue's of the 1125RR to the layman folk would be the AMA/DMG homologation process...those forms are not on the AMA/DMG web site anymore, you have to contact them directly now. The 1125RR looks to meet all the "American Superbike" spec's except for one, and that seems to bother people the most, they do not see the 1125RR having any ties to meet the rule book required "American Superbike motorcycles must be street certified in the U.S. and available through U.S. retail dealers". There is no 1125RR street certified model in the U.S. Maybe we will all luck out and a street "RR" version will be produced. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Who would have ever thought putting one little "R" on the end of 1125R would cause such controversy.... | ||
| Jetbuilder |
How about this, all of you bitching about the method that Buell used in its release of this bike go buy a jap bike. I am tired of all the bitching of what parts may or may not be used in this bike do you really think you can go down to the local Suzuki dealer and get the engine or any other part that Matt has please. That is about as insane as saying the 600 class bikes in DSB are not 100% hardcore FX race bikes.Again PLEASE!!! So get with the program write Eric Buell a note to say thank you and shut the hell up! | ||
| Sparky |
As further proof of all the misinformation going on in this thread, that's Erik Buell to write to, mr. Jetbuilder. Eric Buell won't give a damn what you're thankful about! But, it's the thought that counts...  | ||
| Trojan |
The 1125RR looks to meet all the "American Superbike" spec's except for one, and that seems to bother people the most, they do not see the 1125RR having any ties to meet the rule book required "American Superbike motorcycles must be street certified in the U.S. and available through U.S. retail dealers". There is no 1125RR street certified model in the U.S. Maybe we will all luck out and a street "RR" version will be produced. Exactly. It doesn't matter that the bike may or may not be strictly legal. The mere fact that the rules have been 'relaxed' in Buells favour is enough to give the ammunition for other people to shoot you with. It would be so easy for Buell to sell a complete race kit just as Yamaha does through official dealers and nobody would have any reason whatsoever to complain. Those that think you cannot buy the parts used on other bikes just don't look far enough. You can buy pretty much anything if you have the money and if you have a decent engine builder you can be competitive. Crescent Suzuki in the UK will sell you pretty much anything you need to build a WSB spec GSXR1000, as will Ten Kate for the CBR1000R. Graves, Harris and Yamaha themselves will sell you parts for the R1. Also a lot of teams develop their own parts, so why should they be available to other teams? The bottom line is this. If the rules say it should be a street bike available to the public then that is what it should be. Not a race bike based on a street bike available to the public. Now this has opened the door to the other factories what will Buell fans say when Suzuki arrive with a limited edition Mladin special available to 'licenced racers only', or maybe KTM and Ducati turn up with an even more limited edition RC8R or 1198R? When you buy the 1198 and RC8R you get a road bike with a race kit. Why, to comply with the letter of the rules. | ||
| Smoke |
here is a real leap of logic. if the race organization accepts and approves a bike for a racing class does that not mean that the bike is now legal for that class in that racing organization. 1125RR IS LEGAL FOR AMERICAN SUPERBIKE AS PER DMG!!! CASE CLOSED!! GOOD LUCK BUELL RACERS!! tim ps-i think DMG is going to welcome the other manufacturers to provide race only versions to all AMA race license holders based on the street bikes already homologated! | ||
| M2nc |
I have a solution. Colors and Graphics.... Pencil in a special edition of the 1125R The 1125RR street version option list consists of ..... an additional "R" All this pissing and moaning amounts to nothing more than the vocalized predisposition of Buell and probably more so Harley. There was a great post by KWS on the changes they made to Chaz Davis' Daytona Sport Bike Aprilia. The list was quite long and more intense than the list on this extra R. Erik did what he has always wanted to do, affordable and competitive racing motorcycles. I can Monday morning quarterback the decision of adding the extra R, but a blind man can see it is nothing more than a race prepped version of the STREET LEGAL 1125R. The modifications listed in the press release does not indicate any major difference from what other manufacturers do except they have the foresight not to call it a different name. Please help me remember, what was Mladin's 2008 Superbike's price tag when they sold it? They had a used bike and wanted $20K more than this extra R. Yes I know it is a winner, but still it tells you the extent of after-production parts the bike contained. So far all I see that makes this bike "illegal" is the air box and the additional R. Of course for something to be illegal it would have to be against the rules. If the sanctioning body says its okay, like say a custom gas tank, then its not "illegal". No sir, this is nothing more than semantics, but Buell stepped in it again. A really great idea so far lost in one character. (Message edited by M2nc on July 17, 2009) (Message edited by M2nc on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Interesting, SBP seems to have noticed our complaints about their impartial, completely unbiased comments on Buell: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090716read ermail.htm | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'd do the same thing with SBP that I do with the whiny neighbor kid when he starts crying because he is not getting enough attention... hope he leaves or leave myself. I'm with Court... I'm no longer looking for any insights from a 23 year old riding a race replica on the street. | ||
| Spike |
I'm losing respect for your grammatical abilities and intellectual honesty here, Bill. You really have to stretch to come to that conclusion. All twelve of those definitions carry the idea of presenting or acquainting for the first time. Buell already presented the 1125R to the world two years ago. They've been selling it as a street-certified production model since then. They just presented the 1125RR to the world for the first time this week. They declare it a race-use only competition motorcycle. Buell hasn't called this bike a modified 1125R anywhere in their own documentation. To show up on the internet and claim that Buell is simply giving us the same bike street-legal bike they gave us two years ago is to ignore Buell's own words on the matter. The fact is that when other manufacturers build bikes specifically for race purposes they are required to sell them as production models for homologation. RC30, RC45, 916SPS, 996SPS, 998R, 1098R, etc. There is a long list of factory race bikes that could not be raced without homologation. They all resembled regular production models, but each one was sufficiently different to be declared it's own model and therefore they were required to be sold as production bikes. Buell shows up with a race bike and the AMA decides to let them run anyway. Buell is being allowed to do something that no other manufacturer is currently allowed to do. I desperately want to see Buell winning at this level, but if they don't play by the same rules as everyone else the wins will always carry a disclaimer. | ||
| Benm2 |
I don't see HOW the 1125RR could ever be released as a streetbike: 1. The cams, ported heads, exhaust, and re-mapped engine don't have a chance in he** of passing ANY EPA or DOT tests. 2. The mag wheels probably aren't DOT approved. I think there ARE some MAG wheels that you can get with DOT ratings, but they are generally too fragile for street use. 3. Buell has already made it clear that they will use belt drives on street bikes. So what part of the RR do you want for your streetbike? The suspension & bodywork bits? You might be able to get those. ITS JUST A FACTORY INSTALLED RACE KIT. The kit parts don't break the build rules for American Superbike, except the airbox. If you really want to push the "play fair" doctrine here, then they should have to retrofit the bike with a stock airbox for American Superbike users. The larger box would likely be just fine for WERA, CCS, etc. | ||
| 46champ |
Who's to say the 2010 1125R won't have a larger airbox. | ||
| Rfischer |
Anybody tried to buy an Aprilia RSV4 lately? Of any description or specification? BMW had the brains to at least promise that their superbike in street guise would be available to the public at some point in the future. Aprilia so far as I know has not done even that. But, both bikes race in WSB. In the case of Aprilia, not without some grumbling from other competitors of course. Buell builds and sells to the public 1125R motorcycles and has for 2 years. They are now offering a kitted version for racing employing a selection of performance parts which meet the letter and intent of the sanctioning body rules. I fail utterly to see how one could argue they are cheating or been given an unfair advantage. In an earlier life I was a lawyer so am pretty adept at parsing words, but this discussion of the DMG rules and Buell homologation under them is absurd. | ||
| Altima02 |
Spike, the actual press release from Buell clearly spells out what the bike is. So what they used the word" introduced" They say that they use an 1125R and change/modify the parts they list. They say it there perfectly clear. They used an 1125R, added AMA legal mods, designated it with an additional R, and thats it. Its like Micheal Jordan's racing team deciding to sell 5 limited edition GSXR-1000MJs. Suzuki doesn't sell a street-legal GSXR-1000MJ, but it would be allowed in AMA because it was based on a streetlegal factory bike with legal, approved mods. The rules state what the Bike, the machine, the sum of the parts have to be. They don't say that you can't change the name, or for pete's sake, add one more R to the name. Does DMG really care if the bike shows up with an extra R on it? Do they really care what the designation is? NO. They want to know exactly where all the parts are from, what the basis of the machine is, and if that is all legal. Obviously they said it is, so why cry over a race-prepped bike that has an additional R designation? The fact is what the actual machine is, not the name. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It seems this discussion is jelling into 3 viewpoints: 1- Buell did nothing wrong and the 1125RR should be perfectly legal. The 1125RR is merely an 1125R with a factory-installed race kit. 2- DMG is giving Buell a major break, legalizing the 1125RR is unfair to the other manufacturers, and Buell is in effect being allowed to cheat. 3- While the 1125RR has been declared legal, Buell's press release and DMG's declaration create the impression of bias for Buell in Superbike, and will result in a loss of credibility if/when the bike does win races. These folks seem to have the most heartburn with Buell for unnecessarily creating a perception of bias. OK, back to the   | ||
| Larryjohn |
Superbike practice is going on now with no Buell? Hope this is not a bad sign, I really want to see how the 1125RR does. http://wire.ama-cycle.org/ | ||
| Spike |
Please quote the section of the press release where Buell says they modify an 1125R to produce the 1125RR. If they used that language in the press release we wouldn't even be having this discussion. | ||
| Bott |
he's running now, with competitive lap times | ||
| Dentguy |
Cracks me up that so many on here feel they can speak for Buell and tell everyone exactly what Buell did/does and why.  | ||
| Davegess |
Taylor is out there but two seconds off the pace now. Not unexpected for a new bike. What will be telling is how much improvment they get over the weekend. |
