| Author | Message | ||
     Redbuelljunkie |
Here's the "unfair advantage" proof being circulated on other forums. The bone of contention seems to be the weight allowance for Buell, while Ducati and Aprilia do not get this "special allowance". The question keeps being asked- why does the Buell get to weigh the same as the 600cc bikes when it has more power? There is a lot of bad blood circulating out there right now- I just wish Buell could be successful and not have it be surrounded by controversy. Technical Bulletin #2009-01 To: All AMA Pro Road Racing Competitors Date: February 10, 2009 Effective Date: Immediately Subject: Final Machine Weights Daytona SportBike 3.1 Weight a. Minimum weight: Inline 4 cylinders 365lbs. 3 cylinders 375 lbs. 2 cylinders 385lbs. b. Compliance with the minimum weight will be determined by weighing the machine in the exact condition in which the machine finishes any competition activity (qualifying or race) without the addition of fluids or other items of any kind. Competitor Bulletin #2009-03 To: All AMA Pro Road Racing Competitors Date: February 12, 2009 Effective: Immediately Subject: Special Allowances The following bikes have been granted special allowances for AMA Pro Road Racing Competition: Aprilia RSV1000R American Superbike, Daytona SportBike Items allowed to be changed outside the rules: Wheels- Aprilia RSV1000R Factory (Forged Aluminum) Air box Lid- must be retained, may be modified Wire Harness- all unused wires may be stripped Ram Air Tubes- may be replaced or modified, material free Flywheel- may be replaced Ducati 1098R American Superbike Items allowed to be changed outside the rules: Piston, complete: includes rings, pin and clips- Ducati kit part number 122.2.164.1A Swing Arm, complete: includes bearings and chain guard- Ducati kit part number 370.1.080.1BA Fuel Tank 24l- Ducati Kit part number 586.1.171.1C Fuel Tank 20l- ETI-Fuelcel www.eti-fuelcel.com Ducati 848 Daytona SportBike Items allowed to be changed outside the rules: Fuel Tank 20l-ETI-Fuelcel www.eti-fuelcel.com Buell 1125R Daytona SportBike Items allowed to be changed outside the rules: Allowed Min. Weight 365lbs. Chain Drive Conversion Kit: Buell Race Part G0625.08AZ Front Wheel: Buell Race Part G0110.08AZ SuperSport Front Wheel, magnesium Buell Race Part G0110.04AH DSB Rear Wheel, magnesium 17x5.75 Buell Race Part G0309.05AH DSB Fork, Showa LH, future production: Buell Race Part J0122.09AZ Fork, Showa RH, future production: Buell Race Part J0121.09AZ Air Box: Buell Race Part P2215.08B2 Connecting Rod Bolts: Buell Race Part CA0034.09AZ | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Hey, buddy. Guess what you can tell all your buddies on the other forums....the Buell post race weight was 397 pounds. So much for the BS you are trying to spread here.... Why don't you try reading the multitude of threads on Buells outstanding weekend before making yourself look silly? | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Fresno- go back and read what I said... I'm sharing what is being said on other forums- it's not my opinion. I am frustrated by the backlash to Buell's success, and because they think there's evidence to prove "special treatment" by DMG to ensure a Buell championship. Silly me, I'm on your side here!. I just think it's important to understand what we're up against- information is the most important part of a successful battle plan. | ||
| Dbird29 |
Watch that friendly fire.  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Okay, you have been a critic in the past, my mistake then. Use the argument I just gave you and post up to defend Buell honor!!! AMA Pro racing could make the minimum weight limit 300 pounds--it really doesn't matter. If you can't get the weight down to the minimum, then the rule is meaningless. Or in this case, fodder for all the anti-Buellers out there.... | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Also, the name of the thread could be changed to make your intention clearer | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
the Buell post race weight was 397 pounds. A prime example of information that can be used as ammo in a successful battle plan... | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Fresno, where did you get the weight information from? I've been trying to find the actual post race weights of the top three bikes. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Maybe it was due to the fact that DMG was concerned that the Buell wouldn't be competitive, being brand new and all from a tiny company, whereas the Aprilia and Ducati are from much bigger companies with years and years of GP level experience and development on their models? Looks like not all the allowances were needed anyhow. Interesting that's what Danny's bike weighed. I know that Shawn's bike weighed over 410 when it came off the track at Daytona. The bottom line is the competiton is dead fair on the track, not on the spec sheet, which is the goal of formula classes. The Aprilia is sitting well in the points standings, and had the highest top speed and fastest lap time at Daytona. Nobody whining about that. Oh well, some people are just prejudiced against Buell, I guess. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Post race tech inspection. I wasn't smart enough to get the weight of the 2nd and 3rd place finishers. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The bottom line is the competiton is dead fair on the track, not on the spec sheet, which is the goal of formula classes. +1. Maybe if AMA published some of the post race information (ie weight and dyno--someday?) it could show the world that the rules are NOT giving the Buell an unfair advantage in REALITY. | ||
| Anonymous |
Rumor control: While the current AMA rules allow a 1125R to weigh 365 pounds wet minus fuel, the actual weight of any of the RMR or Higbee bikes has been 390 to 405 pounds. Only Shawn has used the Showa forks listed in the AMA allowed parts list, which are a future production part and half the price for a complete set of forks than the Ohlins cartridge kits that most of our serious competitors are running in their fork legs. The airbox listed has yet to be released, and everyone from RMR to Shawn to the Latus bikes are running current stock production 1125R airboxes. The proof, however, is in how easy it would be to duplicate Eslick's bike. You could buy a 2008 Buell AND turn it into a replica of Danny's bike for about $17,000. There is no unobtanium on it anywhere, and all the parts are available either through Henry Duga at Buell Racing or through aftermarket suppliers. Call Henry and he'll help you come up with a complete shopping list. After that, you'll just have to ride it like all the demons of hell are on your tail. | ||
| Slaughter |
Shhhh.... c'mere and lissen so nobody hears this. I'm gonna let you in on a secret here: Winning on a BBS discussion is nothing. Winning on the RACETRACK is everything! | ||
| Slaughter |
Even though making fun of the Special Olympics is now "presidential," I'm NOT going to post THAT cartoon about arguing on the internet. | ||
| Loki |
At Joplin, Erik made it clear that the Buells were not taking advantage of the weight allowance allowed them. Also that he expected that allowance to be rescinded quickly. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
which are a future production part and half the price for a complete set of forks than the Ohlins cartridge kits that most of our serious competitors are running in their fork legs. +1 Anony...is this a piece of the possible 1125R that we have all been drooling about? I know BMC doesn't comment on future products, but I am just hoping! Thanks for confirming what we have been speculating about. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"The Aprilia is sitting well in the points standings, and had the highest top speed and fastest lap time at Daytona. Nobody whining about that. " The next point for Buell to improve the 1125R is aerodynamics. Then the top speed will increase significantly. Get rid of the pods, put the radiator under the seat and reduce the front area ! An article in MCN said that this is the next step for Buell, I hope it is true. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Rumor control: While the current AMA rules allow a 1125R to weigh 365 pounds wet minus fuel, the actual weight of any of the RMR or Higbee bikes has been 390 to 405 pounds. Only Shawn has used the Showa forks listed in the AMA allowed parts list, which are a future production part and half the price for a complete set of forks than the Ohlins cartridge kits that most of our serious competitors are running in their fork legs. The airbox listed has yet to be released, and everyone from RMR to Shawn to the Latus bikes are running current stock production 1125R airboxes. So, were the race bikes running the special magnesium wheels, or is that coming soon? Anonymous, did Buell ask for the special allowance on weight (365 lbs), or did DMG decide to do this without a request? } | ||
| Court |
Am I the only one who is thrilled to see every one of Buell's "secret advantages" have a BUELL PART NUMBER next to it? How cool is it that anyone who wants to race a Buell can order straight from the race catalog? This is consistent with what Erik, from his frustrating early days aboard Ducati and Yamaha, has wanted to do . . . . build a motorcycle that someone without a $1.5M/race (about what the Japanese teams at Daytona were spending) can buy, build and race. Erik is much more about real people having real fun. I also, call it the entrepreneur in me, ask myself . . . . "if I was a sanctioning body, making the rules for a race series would I provide an unfair advantage to a factory with a race budget for the entire year of under $100,000 that would allow them to come and embarrass the foreign teams that butter my bread with millions". Just seems a bit preposterous. . . . .the best part is that neigh on about 1983, when Erik (in the midst of a depression that eclipsed the current one) quit a perfectly good job at Harley-Davidson to pursue this goal, he never counted on the internet, all the furor one could stir up and how much wonderful (yep, guess what the talk of almost EVERY motorcycle chat room, web forum and race site it?) attention. Personally, after boasting following the XBRR debut at Daytona that "Buell will be one of the top 5 names in racing worldwide within 5 years" I'm feeling a bit vindicated. I'm thrilled to see not only Buell doing well but so darn many marque in the mix. Still interesting is the number of folks who whine like stuck pigs and yet continue to buy, ride and bring their friends to Buell. . . riddle me that Batman? Racing is threatening to become FUN again . . . . tell ya what . . . FUN is really about the only reason I ride. Court | ||
| Blake |
"So, were the race bikes running the special magnesium wheels, or is that coming soon?" You mean the wheels offered on page 47 of the Buell catalog? The one's that anyone with a race license can purchase from Buell Racing? I'd be surprised if they weren't running them.  C. 3 XB Magnesium Wheel
G0309.05AH Rear $1,011.00 | ||
| Court |
Blake: Don't most teams run the lightest wheels that they are legally allowed to under the rules? Why would Buell not do the best they could within the confines of the rules established by the sanctioning organization? What page of the Yamaha catalog are their race wheels on and where could I buy a set? If I am at the races and have a question will there be a representative from the Yamaha factory to help me, as a Privateer, if I have questions? Just curious . . . Court | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
  I think the Indian has alot to do with how the arrow goes down range.... | ||
| Sd26 |
Access to special parts from the Japanese manufacturers is generally close to impossible. Special wheels? For years and years and years, it was common for some teams to take at turn down OEM wheels to make them lighter. The risk was that the tires would spin on the wheel taking them out of balance. It was specifically forbidden in the rules, but the AMA let it happen. Graves has special Yamaha parts, but, still, the ordering windows are very broad and far out. Before that, one would generally order from overseas in an attempt to get some of the go fast parts that would remove some of the acceleration issues that are built into some of the new FI bikes. | ||
| Slaughter |
I know that Shawn has run the XBRR wheels. Not because they're lighter but the profile of the same tire is changed slightly and it just handled slightly better. (Probably mis-stating but that's my fuzzy recollection from up here at Willow) | ||
| Davegess |
The full on factory bikes, and to a lessor extent the satellite teams, get all sorts of neat goodies. Not so much in the American Sportbike class but they do in American Superbike and in the "old" (read last year) botht he 600s and the superbikes were virtually custom built in a race shop using very few parts anyone could buy. You could ask Micheal Jordan about that. These rules are trying to end that. | ||
| Greenlantern |
If anyone tells Danny that there is no dirt on a road racing circuit, I will personally come to you and kick you square in the nads!  So It looks to me that the special allowance here is that they apparently "sleep" longer in Japan then here in the "sticks". They probably kept their sights on their pacific rim brethren and discounted the unreliable upstart, and then........they noticed that those "unreliable" motorcycles were not only completing the races as a whole but were also spread out across the field (At the big four this is known as "TROUBLE BREWING!). And then one of those "non contending" teams with their "nice but not ready for prime time" motorcycles signed "Sideways Danny" and wouldn't you know it , peas and carrots friends, peas and carrots. Well no matter which side of the fence you happen to be watching from, this is a WIN WIN situation for everybody. You can bet real money that the "Big Four" are going to put even more refinement into their future bikes if anything to save a little face in the board room. Danny while making it look way to smooth and easy is pushing that 1125R to It's limit (albeit with a priest in boys town smile on his face) , giving Buell about as much practical R&D as anybody could ask for, which in turns benefits who? Polish that monitor and take a look boys and girls. Yep, this is what I call a good day, for racing, for Buell and for motorcycling in general. The only losers in the mix are the ones who can't see the forest for the trees. If you look to Mt. Fuji these days, you may notice the sun rising a little bit earlier. Rest assured though it will set where it always has.   | ||
| Reepicheep |
Very cool to see those part numbers, not just for the 1125R, but for the 1098R as well. So why aren't any 1098R's running? Not even any privateers? What kind of secret sauce can Ducatti *not* run that they feel they need? Heck, let Kawasaki and Suzuki run stock 750's as well, but under the same formula constraints. The whole focus on 600cc bikes for American roads was a stupid artifact left over from arbitrary displacement rules from the start. | ||
| Fast2win |
I seen a release from dmg that stated daytona sportbikes are to have no more than 140 rwhp.period. and 3 lbs per hp. max.When daytona was aired, they also stated the Buell min. weight was 385lbs 20lbs more than the min for 600's. That doesnt mean that the min. was met just what the min is.The class is apperntly working so far.I havent seen any factory teams running away from the pack of privateers. As for superbike Rotax needs to come up with some parts that are designed with more of a race spec. eng. in mind. ie@ higher rpm use,heads pistons comp. etc. | ||
| Dentguy |
So why aren't any 1098R's running? Pegram runs a 1098R in American Superbike. It is not approved for any other class. | ||
| Fast2win |
I think a 1098 duc. makes too much power "stock" for the class. Thats why they they run a 848. |
