| Author | Message | ||
     M2nc |
So a 103rwhp bike will reach 180mph at the end of Daytona's front stretch? V-twins are all but gone from the highest competition levels. No one can make a single or twin, keep up with a four cylinder with the same displacement. Ducati with all their experience developed a V-4 for GP racing. In WSB they are given a 200cc advantage to help them keep up. Japanese manufacturers abandoned the V-2 for racing years ago. BMW tried with the R1200S and failed, now putting out a me-too I4. Aprilia followed Ducati's lead and developed a V-4. So if you want different bikes in the field you have to get your head out of your ass and see what every manufacturer already knows. More cylinders means more power strokes. More power strokes means more horsepower for the same displacement. But what a boring life we will have if all racing bikes have to be the same. I think if WSB wants to have different bikes in the field reduce I4s back to 750cc, leave V-twins at 1200cc and let triples run somewhere in the middle. At pure stock levels, that seems to be about an even match. In conclusion this is not a Buell thing. This is an attempt by AMA to have bikes with different engine configurations race together. This year's Daytona was the best motorcycle endurance race I have seen in years. I look forward to this year's racing season. | ||
| Diablo1 |
I think if WSB wants to have different bikes in the field reduce I4s back to 750cc, leave V-twins at 1200cc and let triples run somewhere in the middle. At pure stock levels, that seems to be about an even match. Oh brother, so now you want DMG to take over WSBK and wreck that too. WSBK already has close racing, Ducati has dominated up to this season with their 200cc displacement advantage for their V-twin. All the manufacturers are racing this year in WSBK, except Buell, KTM, Triumph, and MV Agusta. And for the first time in recent years, Ducati is not dominating. And that's not a bad thing.} | ||
| Diablo1 |
So a 103rwhp bike will reach 180mph at the end of Daytona's front stretch? No, 103 rwhp is showroom stock. Add a pipe, racing ECU, bump the compression, and maybe they have 125 rwhp and will reach 180mph. The modifications allowed are very few. My WAG is that the racing Buell is around 135-140 rwhp.} | ||
| Court |
Funny thing is . . . I was all excited about Daytona and seeing lots of brands in the mix. I've never seen a WSB race and couldn't name a single rider. Buell is about people and motorcycles. Buell's entire race "budget" wouldn't cover the Suzuki pit crew for a week. The neat idea, regardless of how you feel about how the various brands are weighted, is that the Buell you are seeing on the track is quite close to the one you can buy . . . not separated by a staff of 65 and a budget in the millions. I enjoy the FUN part of it and seeing a 22 year old kid who I've never heard of make some internationally known legend chase him. The nice thing about watching on ESPN is that if you are terribly offended by the single metric of displacement, the "off" switch is right there. | ||
| Patrickmitchell |
Anonymous: Thanks for the post! An insiders take on the AMA is a valuable thing. AMAs goal to equalize the playing field is admirable. Time will tell if it is achievable. It can't imagine the Japanese manufactures letting that happen with out a fight. If successful, we will have more exciting racing in the US. I hope it doesn't turn into NASCAR. I think Buell is making really smart business decisions by allowing all racers access to parts and technical assistance. Running a bike that you can come very close to buying in the show room will lead to increased sales. Hopefully the success in racing will lead to better bikes for us. WSBK: if you didn't watch the Qatar races from this weekend, you need to. There is a full grid (33 I think, don't shoot me if I'm off by one or two), new riders, new bikes, manufacturers new to the series, etc. The racing is close and exciting. From a fan's perspective it is the best motorcycle racing out there. i hope the AMA can create a similar environment in the US. | ||
| M2nc |
No, 103 rwhp is showroom stock. Add a pipe, racing ECU, bump the compression, and maybe they have 125 rwhp and will reach 180mph. The modifications allowed are very few. My WAG is that the racing Buell is around 135-140 rwhp. Right! On that relative short stretch a 125rwhp bike will reach 180mph. May I remind you that stock liter bikes take 18-20 seconds to reach 180mph with 155 to 160rwhp. These stock "600" are almost matching feats stock liter bikes can do. Yeah maybe a privateer with 600cc engine has 125rwhp, but no way are the factory teams that restricted. Bump compression by reworking the heads? Yeah at least, now port and balance the motor, match all opening to limit disturbance of air and fuel flow, play with internal geometry, spend lots of money on engineering and you have at least 140rwhp with factory 600. Think about it, if Buells had that much of an advantage and Esclick was matching or beating all the 600s through the in field, why did he not just walk away from the field with his extra 20rwhp. Higbee was left by the top four 600s in those final laps. Sure didn't look like any horsepower advantage to me. Wreck WSB? There is not much there to wreck. Please look at the number of motorcycle manufacturers there and those not there. Your definition of "ALL" is as close as you estimation of those "stock" 600s RWHP. | ||
| Xb984r |
"The neat idea, regardless of how you feel about how the various brands are weighted, is that the Buell you are seeing on the track is quite close to the one you can buy . . . not separated by a staff of 65 and a budget in the millions. " Once again it's easier to compete when you get a 525cc displacement advantage, no need to spend "millions".How did those Privateers do against the Buell,I mean thats what most claim is what makes these new rules great. | ||
| Davegess |
It is really quite simple as far as horsepower is concerned; for any given displacement more cylinders will give you more horsepower all else being equal. If you want a race series that features different engine configurations you MUST allow different engine sizes. There is a very real maximum for piston speed and valve opening and closing. Smaller pistons mean you can spin the motor faster and RPM's mean more HP. If all you do is limit displacement then the only way to be competitive is use the maximum number of cylinders the rules allow. The SCCA sports car series has been operating with many brands and configurations in their production sports car series for decades and they do not classify by engine size but by the total package of the car. I don't follow it much these days but from what I remember a 1600 CC pushrod engine live rear axle car can be runing against liter fully independent suspended cars IF the total package makes the cars perform roughly equal. They will move cars up or down classes if the racing shows someone to have too much of an advantage. It has worked very fell for 50 years. The Buell does not have an unfair advantage; if it proves too fast they will raise the weight required and level it out. If what you are wanting is for Buell to run a twin and make the same horsepower as the same size 4 you are simply gonna be disappointed. Now if you want a total motorcycle PACKAGE that works great on the street and the race track then Buell delivers. | ||
| Court |
>>>>If all you do is limit displacement then the only way to be competitive is use the maximum number of cylinders the rules allow. Fond memories . . .
Sound like anybody we know . . .
| ||
| Xb984r |
"The Buell does not have an unfair advantage" Only here will you see this.How is 525cc and 20 to 40 horsepower not an advantage? | ||
| Sd26 |
Well, has anyone compared the weights? How about the ability to turn a motorcycle with a big twin crank? These are also real issues also that play into the final factor beyond simple issues of displacement and power. Additionally, if private teams actually believed themselves that the Buell format allowed under the rules structure was an advantage, then Daytona Sportbike would be an all Buell affair. So, those that compete understand otherwise. (Message edited by sd26 on March 15, 2009) | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
How is 525cc and 20 to 40 horsepower not an advantage? If it's losing to 600cc fours then I don't see how it could be considered an advantage. The point is- if you have read the posts in this thread and still have to ask that question... you probably aren't ever going to "get it". | ||
| Court |
I'm thinking of suggest to the NBA that final scores be weighted according the the respective heights of the players on each team. Having tutored for several years I'm in touch with the bell shaped curve and the folks who don't get it and never will. Shame is that rather than go where they think play is fair, the grass is greener and the sun shines brighter, they stay in the mire they're conscripted to and complain. It's what makes the internet so fun. | ||
| M2nc |
Only here will you see this.How is 525cc and 20 to 40 horsepower not an advantage? I don't think we have a displacement problem on this thread as much as a density problem. I agree with the statement above. When Buell race bikes are putting down 160 to 180rwhp, they should step up to Super Bike. Until then, Buell has put together a competitive Sport Bike for the racer on a budget. Also remember, even though Buells have to weight at least 385lbs (20lbs more than the 600cc), most at Daytona were over 400lbs. So even if they have a slight horsepower advantage over privateers on 600cc, their power to weight will still be close. That was proved when only two Buells were in the top twenty-five. | ||
| Blake |
"Only here will you see this.How is 525cc and 20 to 40 horsepower not an advantage?" When it doesn't exist, like in reality. Be assured that the factory IL4's in the Daytona 200 are all putting down over 130 RWHP. Seeing them pass Danny on the straight is proof enough of that, for anyone grounded in reality. Now I have a question. How is twice the number of cylinders, four times the number of valves, and 4,000 more RPM not an advantage? | ||
| Ceejay |
it's the same reasoning those damn desmos are limited to 848... Seems that the DMG/AMA can actually put two and two together, instead of thinking that 2=4... | ||
| Fast1075 |
Once again...I say that SOMEBODY needs basic physics...and some theory on volumetic efficiency and thermal efficiency...and a week or two of relevent history research and review. Court...excellent case in point...there is no better case in point to present. | ||
| Jimidan |
Court sez: "Funny thing is . . . I was all excited about Daytona and seeing lots of brands in the mix. I've never seen a WSB race and couldn't name a single rider." Oh yes you can...that would be one Ben Spies, who started on pole for his very first race on a track that he had only been on in a video game. He was knocked off the track during the first race (but finished) and won the second. WSB is on the same channel as AMA racing...you ought to check it out sometime and root for the Texan. Blake sez: "How is twice the number of cylinders, four times the number of valves, and 4,000 more RPM not an advantage?" Ahem. Are you talking about the XBRR or 1125R? The 1125R has 4 valves per cylinder x 2= 8 valves total. An in-line 4 has 4 valves per cylinder x 4=16 valves total. I think you are cornfusing this argument with one that you had a few years ago...but I could be wrong. My Dad does the same thing...don't worry, be happy.  ! What I say is who cares about all of this minutia...the bikes seem to be pretty well matched and very competitive...let the games begi...er, continue. It makes for a very entertaining show...which must go on. Ceejay sez: "it's the same reasoning those damn desmos are limited to 848... Seems that the DMG/AMA can actually put two and two together, instead of thinking that 2=4..." I am sorry Ceejay, but that doesn't make a lick of sense to me. How can what Blake said about 4 times the number of valves (which was incorrect for the 1125R) be the same for those "damn desmos"? Really, if anyone has a gripe with the rules it should be those damned desmos. If Buell can run an 1125 (for the sake of a good show) then Ducati should be allowed to run a 1098, with similar stock configuration (for the sake of a good show). I can't for the life of me see how they should be limited to only 848. Can someone explain this to me? | ||
| Elvis |
What I say is who cares about all of this minutia...the bikes seem to be pretty well matched and very competitive...let the games begi...er, continue. It makes for a very entertaining show...which must go on.  When the $25,000, 1200 cc BMW HP2 race bikes were racing in the Daytona 200, I wasn't thinking: "Yeah, but they've got twice the displacement of the 600s." I was just cheering them on and happy to see something other than the same old, same old out there racing. It was disappointing that they didn't continue the season with any real effort beyond the 200. It looks like the Buells will be doing that, so I'm going to enjoy the hell out of this season. | ||
| Ceejay |
The brains of the motor, the cams, are better able to be followed because of desmodromics. This is especially prevalent compared to pushrods, but is still a major reason for the allowed bump when comparing the buell to the ducati. In consideration to valve springs desmos helps substantially, but the twin is now limited by piston speed, weight, etc. The desmos help the valve better follow the cam actuation, particularly in closing. This becomes a much bigger issue at higher rpm's as stiffer springs are needed to keep the valve from floating(not closing completly) and as such you wouldn't be able use as aggressive a cam profile in relation to springs. currently in MotoGP many bikes are switching to pneumatically actuated valves to allow for better valve actuation, as the CC limit caters better to higher RPM. Ducati and thier desmos can continue to run safely up to 20,000 I believe... I'm not an expert, and I'm sure I've left some things out, but cam profile has a lot to do with how much air a motor can pump in a minute, the 600's can move a lot of air due to thier low inertial mass(short arms, smaller pistons), the desmo uses 2 bigger pistons and a well controlled valve pattern, and the buell gets the most because, while it has four valves, its not desmo actuated, and has twin configuration. IMO a triple would rule but I've never ridden one so I don't know if it is more of the best of both worlds or the worst... | ||
| Sd26 |
Can someone explain this to me? Sure. Motorcycles have become continually fragmented in the market place. At one time, there was the standard motorcycle. As the population grew, more models were introduced to accomplish continually more and more focused tasks and markets. So, even all 600cc motorcycles are not created in the same mold. This has limited the opportunities for some bikes. And this has left some manufacturers out of the race all together. How many Ducati's are in WSS? They were allowed in the past. Anyway, there are plenty of "hyperbike" opporunities for Japanese 600's. It's not unreasonable to consider other configurations as having performance in a similar category to other machines. To take a specific example, the Buell 1125 is not built in the same mold as a Ducati 1098 or 1198. It's a sporting motorcycle, yes, but it's not a hyperbike. Similarly, a Ford Mustang and a Corvette don't fall into the same category of design or performance. So, in the interest of actually having racing between brands that might attract a greater variety of teams, winners, and, ultimately, fans, certain configurations have been allowed in under a performance index. Maybe in the future Buell might make a focused race bike for Daytona Sportbike in a smaller displacement to fulfill market needs. Maybe they will focus a special 1125 based machine for American Superbike too, I don't know. That's for the future to play out. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Elvis, remember the BMW HP2 Sports are air cooled twins. They were amazing in that race. I was glad to be there for it. Thanks for bringing back some cool memories.  (Message edited by Rubberdown on March 16, 2009) | ||
| Xb984r |
"When it doesn't exist, like in reality. Be assured that the factory IL4's in the Daytona 200 are all putting down over 130 RWHP. Seeing them pass Danny on the straight is proof enough of that, for anyone grounded in reality" No doubt those bikes are putting out that kind of HP, but how much does that cost to do that to the 600's. I thought this was about getting "Privateers" involved? I guess thats only if they ride a Buell "Now I have a question. How is twice the number of cylinders, four times the number of valves, and 4,000 more RPM not an advantage?" The 1125r only has 2 valves per cylinder?4000 RPM are you sure about that? | ||
| Crusty |
4000 RPM are you sure about that? Wasn't it Yamaha who was touting the R6 as having a 17,000 RPM red line? Yes, I know, in reality they were lying (and the Tachometers were "erroneously" reading 17,000)and the bikes were actually only turning 15,200 RPM. Still, that's stock. And the 1125 redlines at ? Quite frankly, I enjoyed the 200 more this year than I have in a long time. I think DMG is onto something, and the real benefit will be to both racers and spectators. Good racers will be able to rise to the top easier and won't have to suck up to Japan, Inc. I also think the 1098 Ducks should be allowed to race in the same class. I don't think they'd walk away from the field, and more twins out there would sound a lot sweeter. The Aprilias sounded pretty good, as well. | ||
| Blake |
My goof on the # of valves, only twice as many. Twice as many throttle bodies too. At least 4K rpm advantage, yes, I'm sure of it. Probably more like 5K. The Japan Inc. factory 600cc repli-racers are not much different from supersport and are available to privateer racers from any dealership. They have four cylinders and rev to stratospheric levels; they are purpose built racing machines and have been for long time now. Their power-bands suck for riding on the street. If the Ducs were limited to the standard version with standard street tune, they would be good to go in my view too. But apparently Ducati prefers to field their 848R version instead. If Buell had a similar version of the Rotax powered bike, I'm sure they would too. As it is, they field a competitive bike at 1125cc. I do agree that it seems strange to on one hand talk about the 1125R's competitiveness in Canadian Superbike, going against IL4 literbikes, then on the other do the same wrt 600cc Supersport bikes in AMA racing. The Buell 1125R Superbike is reportedly pushing 180 RWHP. If entered in the Daytona Sportbike, it would have destroyed the field. Two entirely different machines when it comes to performance. | ||
| Court |
I used to dig the Honda multi cylinder (I think it was 6 cylinder) 50cc bike that reved to something like 23,000 RPM. Sewing machine. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "If the Ducs were limited to the standard version with standard street tune, they would be good to go in my view too. But apparently Ducati prefers to field their 848R version instead. " Is this a matter of choice to run a 848R version? I did not think that the rules ALLOWED the 1098 in this class. I would bet that Ducati would love to run a 1098 in standard street tune in this class...it would be so much more reliable and then there is the torque of those cubes. The larger displacement engines for reliabilities sake has been their argument all along in WSB and AMA Superbike...it is why they dropped out of AMA. sd26 sez: "To take a specific example, the Buell 1125 is not built in the same mold as a Ducati 1098 or 1198. It's a sporting motorcycle, yes, but it's not a hyperbike." I offer a slight rebuttal to your comment. By the time that all of the allowed modifications are made on the 1125R, it looks more like the perfect competitor for the 1098...both are "hyperbikes" (not like 1000 IL-4's) in my book. There are a lot more differences IMHO between a Mustang and a Vette than a 1098 and a 1125R. I have a 996R with full Ohlins suspension and Marvic wheels, and racing brake pads, and except of the riding ergonomics, it rides a lot like the 1125R (which I will have one some day...too many bikes, not enough money). But in race trim, the Buells ergonomics look a lot more like my duc bike than its street version. I don't think the desmo drive makes that big of a difference to handicap it nearly 300 cc's either...maybe some but not that much. I was at an ASRA race at Barber last summer when my boy Dan Bilanski was riding the GEICO 1125R for Hals and was racing this guy on a 1098 and it was a heck of a good race. They were dicing it up really good and the Duc won on a last lap pass by the museum, but that was about the rider more than the bikes as the guy on the Duc was really good in that section. Racing these two bikes against each other makes for some dynomite action! It is good for racing. | ||
| Firstbuell |
hey Court, I was on BARF [SF Bay Area M/C BBS] yesterday - someone had excerpted a short text regarding the bicycle-caliper-braked Honda 50cc RC116 twin [not a 6, but still - 21,500 rpm!] which thrilled us both back in the day a 5-cyl RC149 125cc was built using the same myriad of tiny parts - that racer may be what you remember Soup offers a wonderful poster listing all these amazing Honda '60s GP machines | ||
| Fast1075 |
I saw a film of Mike Hailwood riding one of the 250cc 6 cylinders at Imola...at one spot, a tree shaded the track on a straight....the bike was jetted so on the edge for max power that it would "pop" from going lean as it passed through the shaded area...those engines "only" turned about 19K... | ||
| Firstbuell |
fast1075, where's that film archived? Hailwood's the Man !! |
