| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Rick, If you weren't in eye-rack, where the hell you been hiding? Wait a minute. You're a newlywed ain't ya. Never mind. In any case... Welcome back to BadWeB. | ||
| Rick_a |
About Buell blow ups...I did see one definitely blow up...most others were taken out by little things like a few leaky gaskets, I saw a broken drive chain, and I'm not sure what else. There were problems with all makes...and there was a fairly high concentration of Buells. I think people blow that stuff out of proportion. When a Buell goes, everyone talks smack...when a Japanese bike expires, it's just a technical difficulty. Blake, I've been workin' and schoolin'. After my wife destroyed the family transportation, we have a lot more time at home. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Proposed 2004 FUSA rules 750 Sportbike? Suzuki must be pleased. New Thunderbike Power to weight ratio of 3.8? Good move, it should help to close the gap between the Buells and the SV650's. Suzuki must be pleased. | ||
| Blake |
I agree. I'm sure Suzuki is pleased that their customers will have a venue in which to race their GSXR750's. I'm also sure that all the Ducati 996/998/999, Aprilia RSV Mille, Honda RC51, Kawasaki ZX7R, owners along with any others seeking to campaign machines conforming to the allowed engine configurations/displacements will be just at pleased. That is one beautiful set of class racing rules. The SV's needed some help in Thunderbike. Kudos to FUSA for addressing that issue. Kudos to JQ for keeping us informed. Thanks José. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Agreed! I read those rules and my jaw dropped... how on earth did the AMA(PR) come up with such a simple and rational set of rules that will allow so many different cool bikes to mix it up on the track! Then I realized, it is FUSA. That 'splains it  | ||
| Blake |
Now, now, give AMAPR due credit, the FX class is a fair effort to do the same. | ||
| José_quiñones |
FUSA 750 Sportbike rules sound nice in theory, but in practice will result in 80-90% grid full of GSXR-750's. Like I said earlier, Suzuki must be very pleased by this, because it gives people a reason to buy and race a 2004 GSXR-750 and be competitive in FUSA and also use it in AMA Superstock if they want to. | ||
| José_quiñones |
But I think AMA FX will be the talk of the paddock and the fans next year, with the most number of manufacturers racing in one class than any other National race class in the US. I see visions of Eric Bostrom and Giovanni Bussei doing double duty next year on 999 Superbikes and 749's in FX. | ||
| Blake |
A grid with 80-90% gixxers is fine. The NEWS is that the class ALLOWS bikes of many other configurations to compete in the same class. The popularity of the GSXR750 will of course probably help it dominate the grid. Doesn't mean a GSXR750 will dominate or even win the series though. A well prepped Duc or RC51 could easily contend for the class. Notice too how FUSA granted the 750cc IL4's a displacement bump. Could they be trying to maintain parity among the fours and twins? I sure hope Duc makes a good showing next year. I'm not very confident in the Austin Ducati team though. Duc screwed the pooch when they cut Vance and Hines loose from their AMA road racing effort... BIG mistake. | ||
| José_quiñones |
I guess you value Symbolism versus substance more than I do. It's much more expensive to field a competitive RC51 or 998, particularly considering the lower media exposure and prize purses in FUSA. Most people will stick with the tried, true, competitive GSXR750. Im sure there will be a few 1000cc Twins in FUSA 750 SPortbike, but most will race in the AMA so at least they can get themselves on TV. | ||
| S320002 |
You two have spent a lot of time debating the subject. So tell us. What's is the solution to creating fair and equitable racing classes? Clear and concise answers please. | ||
| Blake |
JQ, Symbolic hell. The allow ALL comparably performing machines to race. The symbolic rules are offered by AMAPR in their 600SS class where they allow twins, but don't give them any equalizing consideration versus the IL4's wrt performance. I can't believe you are actually arguing such a lame indefensible point. I thought you were a big fan of FUSA. Greg, That is too easy, the FUSA/CCS rulebook. | ||
| Hobanbrothers |
Cheesus Criminy, I thought we were finnally getting somewhere with a constructive thread and it seems now the winds are swirling again. You guys just do not play well together! What I would like to do here is argue about how to get more people and attention to the Formula USA tracks and races. Argue about that one, we need the attention, please! | ||
| Sportsman |
Get Clear Channel to pull some TV connections to start. When TV shows up the factories shouldn't be far behind. Promote regional FUSA races through local shops. Raise entry fees to get a realistic purse so the possibility of an actual profit may be realised by at least the front runners. There are a ton of things that could be done to make it better but I'm afraid it'll take money to make money. The bad thing about MC roadracing is for the spectator, they can't see. Or, it's at a NASCAR track and it's in the infield making it look small and slow. At a NASCAR race they ARE slow by compairison, but with the grandstands shaking and your body viberating it seems wild. They need to find a way the spectators would be as thrilled as the riders. | ||
| Rick_a |
One thing I like about FUSA is that when it comes down to it, the basis seems to be more about just racing than all the extraneous bull. | ||
| José_quiñones |
I'm not trying to argue Blake, I think those rules are just fine, I just dont' see a lot of twin teams participating due to the reasons explained before. However, I'm not a fan of allowing non stock displacements, so the 775cc limits for fours will swing the advantage to the teams with the money to build and develop one of those bikes. Production based racing should be production based, displacements included. But FUSA wants to do it I don't have a problem with it, since they use the Dynos and weight scales to keep everybody honest. 140 hp/375 pounds sounds like a good limit for that class. Suzuki teams should have no problem racing right at that limit at stock displacement.
I took a crack at that on another thread: Forget displacements and engine configurations. Do three classes based on 3, 4 or 5 pounds per horsepower including the weight of the rider, with one "unlimited" class with no power to weight restrictions. All bikes (except unlimited class) must be commercially available and all oem/aftermarket parts used in the bikes must be commercially available. How to get FUSA attendance up? Sportsman is on the right track. Give Brag/HOG members discounts, group discounts (they already do that). Get more HD/Buell Dealers involved. Speed carries AMA, how about getting FUSA on the new SPIKE cable TV network. edited by josé_quiñones on November 19, 2003 | ||
| José_quiñones |
Combine FUSA Road Racing and Dirt track events to happen in the same area at the same weekend. That way you can see some of the same racers competing for the Grand National Championship on the same weekend with one "superticket" Add Supermoto events to the Grand National Championship. Talk about Spectator Friendly! I saw the AMA Supermoto race at South Boston Speedway, VA, the same Weekend as the VIR AMA event. You could see the whole track from the Grandstand. You almost couldn't keep up with it, there was action going on everywhere! edited by josé_quiñones on November 19, 2003 | ||
| S320002 |
Gotta give Blake a D for lack of effort and no fresh ideas. Plagiarism isn't my idea of concise. José gets a solid C. He managed keep it short enough that I read the whole thing. Extra credit for the marketing ideas brings him up to a B-. | ||
| Grndskpr |
What I would like to do here is argue about how to get more people and attention to the Formula USA tracks and races. Argue about that one, we need the attention, please! Kinda like JQ's answer, but Speed has screewed up the bike races since they changed there format around, they show them in the afternoon, and sometimes on the weekend, goto outdoor life network(they show ama motard racing, and while the coverage was so so, i was happy to see it at a normal time) or Fuel TV, and see what they say, i mean fuel is big into motocross and skateboards, ofter the discounts to all motorcycle groups that can prove it(ama,hog,brag,honda,kawi eveybody) get out on the net more(have you seen wera message board? i love it) Thats all i have for now later Roger | ||
| Rick_a |
Yeah...all José needs now is his own race organization and it's all good to go  ... | ||
| Blake |
Gotta give Blake a D for lack of effort and no fresh ideas. Plagiarism isn't my idea of concise. Hey, if you don't like it, don't hold back, flunk me all the way. I don't need no stinkin' charity "D". I'm a big fan of going with what is proven to work rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. That'd be a "real world" approach to things.  But, if you want something different, how about a fuel limited class... give each bike exactly two gallons of fuel for an entire 50 mile race, no limits of any kind on type or configuration of engine, no streamliners, street type bodywork only. First one to make 50 miles wins. | ||
| Grndskpr |
But, if you want something different, how about a fuel limited class... give each bike exactly two gallons of fuel for an entire 50 mile race, no limits of any kind on type or configuration of engine, no streamliners, street type bodywork only. First one to make 50 miles wins. I thought MotoGP has kinda done that, not to that extreme, but i thought there was a limit to the amount of fuel the bikes had, i might be confused with the size of the tank, but for some reason i thought there was a fuel limit, again not to the extreme were talking Roger | ||
| S320002 |
Blake, That is the kind of thinking I was hoping to stimulate with the original question. Sometimes it takes a little prodding to wake people up. By the way, I suggested the fuel mileage/performance idea in this forum a long time ago. | ||
| Blake |
Where's my "A" damnit? Roger, I think you are corrrect. | ||
| Jprovo |
Fuel limits are great. The Moto GP fuel limit is currently at 24 litres. Jose, The only problem I have with your rules is that it would prevent innovators from racing in anything but the unlimited class. I'd love to see a sucessful builders series with unlimited displacement single cylinder bikes, a 4.5 lb/Hp limit (with rider), a gallon fuel capacity, and race lengths in the 20-35 mile range. I'm looking forward to FX next year and hope that a Buell team finishes on the podium a few times. James | ||
| José_quiñones |
One class for "innovators" is plenty. You could not get enough "innovators" together at one track to fill up the grid for more than one class. There is only one Tularis out there right now, and they only race it a few times a year in the FUSA Unlimited GP class. Gurney has not decided to race his Alligator yet. The Britten is not raced in the US anymore. Production based racing is popular around the world many reasons: 1. people like to see race bikes that are based on what they ride. 2. The manufacturers love it because it helps their marketing efforts. 3. It keeps the costs down, which allows more teams to participate. Which explains why a typical AMA or World Supersport event consistently has over 30 entries. edited by josé_quiñones on November 21, 2003 | ||
| S320002 |
"One class for "innovators" is plenty. You could not get enough "innovators" together at one track to fill up the grid for more than one class." I disagree. If the rules allowed more innovation there would be more innovators competing. "1. people like to see race bikes that are based on what they ride. 2. The manufacturers love it because it helps their marketing efforts. 3. It keeps the costs down, which allows more teams to participate." 1. With respect to Super Bikes that statement strikes me as equivalent to the often used Hollywood expression "Based on a true story". A factory Superbike costs the FACTORY $50,000 or more. They aren't paying that for their own "stock" parts. The only time that statement is close to true is with respect to some privateer bikes. 2. The manufacturers love it because it gives them a huge advantage. 3. If you want to be competitive you had better have buckets of cash. If, as you stated, a team just wants to "participate" your statement has some merit. Production based racing stifles innovation because it is limited, by definition, to innovations no more radical than the factories are willing to put into production. | ||
| José_quiñones |
It might stifle innovation, but it fills the grids and the stands, and at the end of the day a Sanctioning body is there to make money. "Fuel limited" racing would be interesting on the Discovery Channel done by a bunch of college students, but it would not be real road racing, as the rider would be meaningless, he would just be there to keep the bike pointed in the right direction while the computers make sure he's not asking for too much gas so he can make it to the end. MotoGp realized a while ago they were losing relevance with their 500 two strokes which is why they decided to go the 990 four stroke way. It makes the bikes closer to street bikes while still allowing as much "innovation" as any other class or motorcycle road racing. Again, sounds nice in theory, but if it was better than production based rules, you would more sanctioning bodies using that approach. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Here's a question for everybody: When you go to a race, do you go see and root for a bike brand, or the rider? At the AMA level, most fans I have seen and spoken with tend to follow the riders, so they would root for Eric Bostrom whether he was riding a Kawasaki or a Ducati. I would suspect that some people here would just follow and root for the Buells no matter who's on it. The AMA currently has both the "Big Names" and the evil "Factories" which another reason FUSA does not get as much attention. | ||
| Blake |
AMAPR has yet to make any money. I think all the other American sanctioning bodies run unlimited GP classes. I route for brands and riders sometimes separately sometimes in conjunction. I like BBoz and Duhamel and EBoz. I route for the twins and especially Ducati... therefore in 2004... GO EBOZ!!! Talked to Jeff Nash today in person at the Dallas IMS. He said that Ducati is getting 148 HP out of the 749R and they'll run all day at 15,000 rpm doing it. The 600cc IL4's are gonna be toast if they aren't putting down at least 140 HP. I asked him if he was planning on making a go of it in AMA FX next year. He said it would be tough even with a sponsor willing to put up a half million dollars minimum. Jeff is a really cool guy. The kinda guy who just by association makes you want to buy a new Ducati. The 999 fits me like a glove. Grrr |
