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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 08:14 am: | 
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I already did (my Suzuki SV, the Buell was broken at the time) and it was fun.
800cc? Nobody sells 800cc IL4's at the moment. Kawasaki built one last year for AMA, with good results, but they don't sell a ZX8R and they want to sell the street version of what they race, just like everybody else.
Honda does not need to race the RC51 anymore, because of the rules, so they are more than happy to start selling and racing their new CBR1000.
The market is dominated by 600 and 1000cc IL4's, that is what the manufacturers want to sell, so that is what they will go racing next year, worldwide.
Merry Christmas. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 08:19 am: |
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One last thing, here's what Colin Edwards himself said about his "new" RC51 back in 2000 before the season began:
quote:Q. RC51 replaces RC45. Honda builds a Twin. Can't beat 'em, join 'em?
A. It's not that. It's if you can't beat 'em, build something and stomp their ass with their own bike. (dean wryly notes, if that is not the quote of the season, i'll eat my hat)
Basically, that's the mentality. I mean, it's 1000cc. It's bigger than a 750 so you've got an advantage right there. It's taken awhile, but they've realized that. Whenever we rode it -- and I don't know if I can really tell you this -- it was 2 to 3k faster in every corner (than the RC45). Every corner. You can just carry more corner speed.
Carl always said the RC45 didn't suit his style, because he couldn't carry the corner speed. Well, it's not that, it's just that the RC45 is not a twin. That's basically in layman's terms what he was bitching about. It's just engine characteristics that allow you to carry more speed. I can't explain it, it's just one of those things.
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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 11:04 am: |
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Yeah, well three of the four companies didn't have competitive liter fours either. Only Suzuki. They all could have just as easily developed new 800cc versions of their 750cc machines and they would have sold just fine.
Now instead of just displacement limits we end up with all kinds of contrived goofy rules to try and maintain parity between the twins and fours.
I'm okay with that as long as it works. But it seems awfully strange to go from a fairly/almost competitive scenario giving the twins a 33% advantage in displacement to a scenario where there is zero displacement advantage. There's no loopholes in getting around a displacement limit. There are likely to be all kind of tricks to get skirt the intent of the contrived list of rules intended to limit the performance of the IL4 literbikes. Maybe not. It just seems strange to me.
Or from the perspective of Mat Mladin in 2000, you could just as easily claim that "It's got four cylinders and can rev higher so you've got an advantage right there." Colin is great at selling the bike. Twins handle better and are supposedly more tractable due to their power delivery characteristics.
So when all the IL4's in AMA SS race each other, are they trying to "stomp their (competitor's) ass with their own bike"? Sounded better when Colin said it huh? Kinda stupid though.
The RC45 was an ill-handling machine that was past it's prime. The RC51/VTR1000SP2 was a huge leap forward in both engine and chassis performance. But a Duc it is not.
Where do you get your market figures from. I had no idea that liter four repliracers were so dominate over the twins. I guess if you are going to buy a twin repliracer you are going to go for the Ducati in many cases. I bet Honda keeps the RC51 around for a long time. I bet it snags a different market demographic than the hyperliterbike fours.
You did a track day! Did you post about it? Give us the scoop.
And anyway, I'd rather see the racetrack lead to the streetbike and not vice versa. Dictating racing class rules to fit what a select group of manfacturers wants in the way of marketing seems unfair to me. Especially if it is done at the expense of another very competitive manufacturer. I wonder... If Ducati decided that they wanted to start building a 1,200 cc superbike, would the rules be adjusted to let them race it in SBK? What do you think? I'd say that would be doubtful and that is what bothers me about the current change in SB displacement rules. It seems very biased.
Who I REALLY feel sorry for are the Foggy/Petronal team. They are stuck with a measely 900cc triple, busted their arses to get it done, get one full year under their belt and, a'la Erik Buell, are screwed.
Do you think that is coincidence?
I don't. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 01:34 pm: |
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quote:Now instead of just displacement limits we end up with all kinds of contrived goofy rules to try and maintain parity between the twins and fours.
I almost choked on my coffee!
quote:BAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! "Racial discrimination"????!!! BAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 03:16 pm: |
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That needs to be the title of one of these suptopics. Too funny! LOL! |
Bads1
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 03:46 pm: |
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I didn't want change topic's but doe's anyone know as of yet who picked up Kurtis Roberts??? I guess he was dropped from Honda and at press time he didn't have a ride yet. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 04:08 pm: |
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Kurt's ridin for dad in MotoGP. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 05:05 pm: |
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The Petronas was meant to go MotoGP, that's why it was 900cc's from the start.
I didn't make Colin say those words, he said them and I think he has more credibility on this subject than most people since he actually had to ride both bikes.
Speaking of credibility, Supersports doing 170 at Daytona? Where did you get that from?
The only radar speeds from the last tire test were that I found were as follows:
Miguel Duhamel, Honda CBR1000RR Superbike, 192 mph
Jake Zemke, Honda CBR1000RR Superbike, 192 mph
Ben Bostrom, Honda CBR1000RR Superbike, 190 mph
Aaron Yates, Suzuki GSX-R1000 Superbike, 185 mph
Aaron Gobert, Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock, 184 mph
Jamie Hacking, Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock, 184 mph
Jason DiSalvo, Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock, 183 mph
Josh Hayes, Kawasaki ZX-10R Superstock, 182 mph
Damon Buckmaster, Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock, 180 mph
Mat Mladin, Suzuki GSX-R1000 Superbike, 180 mph
Tommy Hayden, Kawasaki ZX-10R Superstock, 179 mph
Aaron Gobert, Yamaha YZF-R6 Supersport, 167 mph
Tony Meiring, Kawasaki ZX-6RR Supersport, 164 mph
Roger Lee Hayden, Kawasaki ZX-6RR Supersport, 163 mph
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Bads1
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 05:24 pm: |
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Man those trap speeds of Team HONDA makes me wonder if Matt Mladin is going to be the one whining this year. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:27 pm: |
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The 170 mph number was in an article I read somewhere about the safety of running so fast at Daytona and the tire issues involved. I don't think the 170 mph was taken from a tire test. Probably from a racing event.
Dana,
I wouldn't ever count on Matt to fail to speak his mind. I wouldn't count him out of the championship either, no matter what he was riding. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:37 pm: |
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I think now that Honda is running the inline 4 it should be alittle interesting this year for the Gixxer's. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 12:47 pm: |
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JQ,
I spent a few minutes this morning skimming through my copy of Sportbike Performance Handbook by Kevin Cameron, first published in 1998, written about 7 years ago. Seven years is a long time insofar as high performance racing engine technology is concerned. Here's what Kevin had to say in his "Appendix B" entitled "Performance Math" under the subheading of "Make Sense of RPM", second paragraph (page 171)...
quote:It used to be that engineers regarded 4,000 piston feet per minute as "the limit" for race engine piston speed, but times change. 4,500 feet per minute is a respectably high piston speed today (circa 1997), but is not a limit because drag, Formula One, and Ducati Superbike engines regularly run to 5,000 piston feet or more. Better materials and design allow constant small increases in permissible piston speed. Unreliability is always the penalty for extremes. If Ducati World Superbike (WSB) riders really are taking their race engines to 12,500 in lower gears, that's 5,415 piston feet per minute. That's impressive, but so are the frequent blow-ups those highly developed engines suffered in the 1996 WSB season (planned engine track life is 360 miles).
... At lower piston speeds, stock steel components can do the job. At higher speed, stock steel rods will still work for short bursts (drag racing), but for prolonged operation, high class components, possibly made of lightweight titanium, will be needed.
I've never doubted the integrity of the statement made by Mr. Nash that the Factory Ducati 748R racing machine will run all day at engine speeds up to 15,000 rpm and is putting out 148 HP. The above only reinforces my confidence in his integrity. I certainly appreciate that he was willing to share that very interesting information with me. I cannot imagine what purpose lying about such a thing would serve. I cannot imagine why some would choose to question Mr. Nash's integrity.
Happy New Year. Here's hoping for more positive discourse for 2004 and a great and widely competitive year for the new AMAPR FX series.
Go Buell! Go Ducati! Go Moto Guzzi! Booo-Hisss Honda.  |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 09:18 pm: |
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They did it, they blew up, and they don't rev them that much any more because they need to finish the races.
I still doubt that you'll see the WSS Factory 749R revving to those rpms in race conditions, we'll have to wait and see. |
Tripper
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 09:34 pm: |
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Has Guzzi decided to go? |
Jscott
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 07:56 pm: |
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Has anyone heard if Buell will be fielding a team for Formula Xtreme this year? |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 09:57 pm: |
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JQ,
The Ducati superbikes didn't suffer too many problems in 1996. After all, Troy Corser won the championship on one. And according to Mr. Cameron, the piston speeds were even greater than those required to support the revs that Jeff Nash is saying the current crop of 749 racing machines are reaching. We are now in the 2004 season, 8 years later, a virtual eternity in terms of materials science technology and engineering.
Again, I believe Mr. Nash. Not sure if the bikes will rev that high during actual races or not. That is not what Mr. Nash said. He said the race bike had revved to 15K reliably all day during a track testing session. Bottom line is that 5,300 fpm mean piston speed is no big deal for Ducati Corse racing. No..... big..... deal.
It's a racing engine, not a street bike. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:02 pm: |
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I've heard rumors here that someone will be fielding a Buell in AMA FX. No one will fess up for sure though. Probably best that they don't tip their hand. AMAPR would likely change the rules at the last minute if they thought a Buell might actually be competitive in the class. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:30 pm: |
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None entered yet in the "official" AMA FX Entry List
Let's see, AMA FX rules let Air cooled twins up to 1350 cc's, unlimited airbox, fuel tank, injection and engine modifications while the 750 twins and 600 fours are held to Superbike engine restrictions and stock airboxes, tanks and injections systems.
That's not enough? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:09 am: |
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Against Miguel? Nope. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 08:25 pm: |
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Finally! Buell racers to do battle in AMAPR FX!
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=8343
Whoohooo!!! Good luck Hal's/Mike Cicotto and Kosko/Michael Barnes!!! Makes me want to make Daytona more than ever. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 07:17 pm: |
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Back on piston speed...
The new R1 engages its rev limiter at 14K. With a 53.6mm stroke, the new Yammer liter class repliracer in stock form is making 4,924 FPM mean piston speed. |
Bykergeek
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 07:24 pm: |
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But no Buells in World Supersport or Superstock (no big surprise).
This just in from the FIM:
SUPERBIKE - SUPERSPORT
STOCKSPORT - SUPERPRODUCTION
Listing of FIM homologated motorcycles for 2004
Liste des motocycles homologués FIM pour 2004
Note: - New motorcycle models presented in January 2004 are in bold.
Note: - Les nouveaux modèles présentés en janvier 2004 sont en caractères gras.
SUPERBIKE
Model/Modèle Production period as from / until
Période de Production de / à
APRILIA RSV 1000 R JUL 99 - end
APRILIA RSV 1000 RP JAN 01 - end
APRILIA RSV 1000 RP JAN 03 - end (+ optional fuel injection instrument / instrument d'injection de carburant en option)
APRILIA RSV 1000 RR JAN 04 - present (+ optional fuel injection instrument / instrument d'injection de carburant en option)
BENELLI TORNADO 3-900 LE JAN 01 - present
BIMOTA SB8 K DEC 99 - end
DUCATI 996 R (H2) JAN 01 - end
DUCATI 998 R (H2) JAN 02 - end
DUCATI 999 R (H4) JAN 03 - present (+ optional fuel injection instrument / instrument d'injection de carburant en option)
HONDA CBR 929 RR (Z)-'99 DEC 99 (00 Model) - end
HONDA CBR 900 RR (SC50) JAN 02 - end
- (CBR 900 RR for EURO model),
- (CBR 954 RR' for USA, J model)
HONDA CBR 1000 RR (SC57) JAN 04 - present
HONDA VTR 1000 SP2 (SC45) JAN 02 - present (+ optional fuel injection instrument /avec instrument d'injection en option)
KAWASAKI ZX 9 R NOV 99 - end
KAWASAKI ZX 9 R (F) JAN 02 - end
KAWASAKI ZX 10 RR JAN 04 - present
MONDIAL PIEGA 1000 JUL 03 - present (+ optional fuel injection instrument /avec instrument d'injection en option)
PETRONAS FP-1 JAN 03 - JUL 03 (+ optional fuel injection instrument / instrument d'injection de carburant en option)
SUZUKI GSX R 1000 (K1) NOV 00 - end
SUZUKI GSX R 1000 (K3) JAN 03 - present
YAMAHA YZF R1 (1998 model) DEC 98 - end (homologation period extended to 31.12. 04/ période d'homologation prolongée jusqu' au 31.12. 04)
YAMAHA YZF R1 (2000 model) DEC 99 - end
YAMAHA YZF R1 (2002 model) JAN 02 - end
YAMAHA YZF R1 (2004 model) JAN 04 - present
SUPERSPORT
Model/Modèle Production period as from /
Période de Production dès
DUCATI 748 R (H3) DEC 99 - end
DUCATI 748 R (H3) JAN 01 - end
DUCATI 748 R (H3) JAN 02 - end
DUCATI 749 R (H5) JAN 04 - present
HONDA CBR 600 F JAN 01 - end
HONDA CBR 600 FS JAN 01 - end
HONDA CBR 600 F4i JAN 01 - end
HONDA CBR 600 RR (PC37) JAN 03 - present
KAWASAKI ZX 600 J (ZX-6R) NOV 99 - end
KAWASAKI ZX 600 K (ZX-6RR) JAN 03 - end
KAWASAKI ZX 600 M (ZX-6RR) JAN 04 - present
LAVERDA 750 S FORMULA JUN 99 - present
SUZUKI GSX 600 R (K1) JAN 01 - end
SUZUKI GSX 600 R (K4) JAN 04 - present
TRIUMPH TT 600 JAN 00 - end
TRIUMPH DAYTONA 600 JUL 03 - present
YAMAHA YZF R6 JAN 01 - end
YAMAHA YZF R6 JAN 03 - present
STOCKSPORT & SUPERPRODUCTION
Model/Modèle Production period as from /
Période de Production dès
APRILIA RSV 1000 R JAN 00 - end
APRILIA RSV 1000 RP JAN 01 - end
APRILIA RSV 1000 RP JAN 03 - end
APRILIA RSV 1000 RR JAN 04 - present
DUCATI 996 S JAN 01 - end
DUCATI 998 S (H2) JAN 02 - end
DUCATI 999 S (H4) JAN 03 - present
HONDA CBR 900 RR (SC50) JAN 02 - end
- (CBR 900 RR for EURO model),
- (CBR 954 RR' for USA, J model)
HONDA CBR 1000 RR (SC 57) JAN 04 - present
HONDA VTR 1000 SP AUG 99 - end
HONDA VTR 1000 SP (SC45) JAN 02 - present
KAWASAKI ZX 9 R (F) JAN 02
KAWASAKI ZX 10 RR JAN 04 - present
MV AGUSTA F4S (+1) JUN 01 - present
SUZUKI GSX R 750 (Y) JAN 00 - end
SUZUKI GSX R 750 (K2) JAN 02 - end
SUZUKI GSX R 750 (K4) JAN 04 - present
SUZUKI GSX R 1000 (K1) NOV 00 - end
SUZUKI GSX R 1000 (K3) JAN 03 - present
YAMAHA YZF R1 (1998 model) DEC 98 - end (homologation period extended to 31.12. 04/ période d'homologation prolongée jusqu' au 31.12. 04)
YAMAHA YZF R1 (2000 model) DEC 99 - end
YAMAHA YZF R1 (2002 model) JAN 02 - end
YAMAHA YZF R1 (2004 model) JAN 04 - present |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 06:50 pm: |
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13,750 rpm, not quite 14k, but impressive anyway. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 09:35 pm: |
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According to MO, redline is 13,750, but the rev limiter kicks in at 14 grand. I think they call that "over-rev." |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 06:23 pm: |
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Ducati talks about their re-entry into World SS in 2004...
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=8506
quote:The last time Ducati Corse officially took part in World Supersport was in 2000, when Paolo Casoli and Ruben Xaus won three races with the 748 and its return with the new 749R adds considerable prestige to the series. Ducati also won the Riders' and Manufacturers' titles in 1997 with Casoli and the 748, when Supersport moved to a world level for the first time.
Who was it that was slamming the 748R as an uncompetitive racing machine?
How cool would it be if the AMA stopped excluding the 749R into AMA SS? Why don't they let it race? What possible reason could they have? I mean really, even with the pull that the Japan Inc group obviously has, the 749 is priced WAY outside the cut-throat dealing offered by the 600cc IL4 manufacturers.
When is Triumph going to start racing their new 600cc machine in a series. Yes, I know about the IOM TT win. Too cool. But are they planning to ever re-enter championship road racing at the world or AMA or British level? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 07:07 am: |
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Triumph raced British Supersport last year and will race again this year. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 02:48 pm: |
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How'd they do? And does British Supersport allow the Ducs to race?
Bummer about the Buells not making Daytona for the 1st FX race eh? I can't figure out why they would skip it. Surely it's not because they both failed to be prepared. I guess they may not have the required top speed for the big oval and don't want to be embarrassed? Oh well. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:11 pm: |
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For the first time ever, Triumph has offered contingency money for AMA pro racers. This year, the British brand is posting $12,500 for each Supersport class race, for racers using its Daytona 600 sport bike. If a lucky Triumph rider won a Supersport race, Triumph would cut them a check for $5,000. If that same rider (or any Triumph rider really) finished 15th (a bit more likely), they'll get $100. So far two riders have pre-entered Daytona on Triumphs: No. 116, K. Mark Crozier of Port Orange, Florida and No. 127, Steven Breckenridge of Jacksonville.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 05:17 pm: |
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Triumph to race this weekend's World Supersport event in Valencia, Spain |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 08:05 pm: |
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Cool! Go get 'em team RAT! |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 12:58 am: |
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Nice press release by AMAPR, makes good mention of the Buells. Guess they don't know they won't show.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=8547 |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 04:14 am: |
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Friday's Provisional World Supersport Qualifying Results:
1. Karl Muggeridge, Honda CBR600RR, 1:51.939
2. Fabien Foret, Yamaha YZF-R6, 1:53.116
3. Sebastien Charpentier, Honda CBR600RR, 1:53.159
4. Jurgen Vd Goorbergh, Yamaha YZF-R6, 1:53.694
5. Lorenzo Lanzi, Ducati 749R, 1:53.698
Go Duc! |
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