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Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 01:20 pm: | 
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With the advance of technology I suppose we're do some advances in "catching" technology.
I'm kind of a fan of pretty severe consequences. Like you get caught, you never race again. . .rider, team, crew chief.
The way it is now it's little more than a slap on the wrist.
By they way . . . I don't follow racing that closely anymore. I could be entirely wrong and am eager to get the input of the race crowd. Any reason, save the altruistic, not to cheat? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 04:06 pm: |
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quote:With the advance of technology I suppose we're do some advances in "catching" technology.
After the facts forensics, without a physical chain of custody, can never be completely trusted.
About the only way to do it would be to start with a factory ECM under a trusted control party, have them program it to the mapping specifications specified by the team, and then have them mount it on the race bike and physically secure it in there with some sort of tamper resistant seal.
Thatd make cheating a lot harder, but not impossible, and you would still have a hard time knowing if (hypothetically) somebody had a "sleeper routine" in the factory ECM that says "if you see value X, Y, and Z in cells A, B, and C, then we are in secret turbo mode and you should run the engine to make more horsepower when you detect you are on a dyno".
Or heck, now that I think about it, just leave that routine in there running all the time. Detect dyno runs, subtract 15 HP from the top end. We can later blame it on the Ram Air :/
The "ultimate" security would be a source code review of the factory ECM code and ECM programming code, a checksum generator and logger that is tamper proof and logs a lot of stuff through the whole race, and is verified with a digital "tear down".
For that matter, it would be straightforward to build a "black box" with some sensors. That could be fooled, but it would be a lot harder. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 04:30 pm: |
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The above is a pretend dyno chart. Both engines make 90 hp. One has a "flat" torque curve with a peak at redline around 90hp. The other has a "fat" torque curve, with a peak at 4000 rpm. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 04:42 pm: |
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Here's a (somewhat flawed) speed versus time chart for the above mentioned bikes. I used a formula for drag based on frontal area, Cd, and velocity squared. Both bikes do the quarter mile at about 12 seconds, but the one with the "fat" curve wins.
Note that the bike with more peak hp (at peak rpm) doesn't have more speed till 25 seconds or so. In the meaty part of the acceleration, the fat bike pulls harder.
This assumes that both bikes are 5-speeds and have 7500 rpm redlines. I could compare more stuff, but I think this shows the point: at the end of a quarter mile, the fat bike finishes about 0.5 seconds ahead. Both bikes are going about 112 mph, or about 160 ft/sec. So the fat bike gets an 80 ft advantage in this sim-game.
The guy with the "fat" curve hasn't cheated, his bike will just exit corners better. A few feet here or there on acceleration will add up, corner after corner and lap after lap. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 04:58 pm: |
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This one has the bike with the "fat" torque curve at 380 lbs, with the other bike at 400 lbs. Notice the difference in acceleration. Also this chart will only account for static weight effects, reductions in rotating mass are too much math to predict right now.
The lighter bike drops down to an 11.75 quarter, picking up even more distance.
Also with regard to the BMW Thunderbikes: They have more weight AND more hp. Regardless of the effects of the torque curve, I think the BMW's were up around 115 hp. That was about 10-12 up on the lighter XB's, keeping the hp/weight within ratio. However, the BMW's WILL pull ahead on a long enough straight just from the higher power.
There are only two ways to know they're cheating: (1) they admit it or (2) they get caught. Based on some relatively simple approximations, I can see that it IS possible for the Ducati's to SEEM faster. |
Indy_bueller
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 06:17 pm: |
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Reepicheep: Right on.
Ben: I see what you are saying, and you are absolutely correct. But what about when one Ducati PS 1000LE out-pulls another one? |
Jan_lee
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 11:01 pm: |
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Does anyone have photos from the race Jose, Pete, Wendy any one I'd like to see the stuff from the pits |
Davegess
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 11:03 pm: |
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Puts me in mind of one of the many great Smokey Yurnick stories. Seems his car was consistently running more laps than very one else between fuel stops. NASCAR checked everything but could not find anything wrong. Finally after he did again and passed tech they tore into the car, removed the fuel tank, tore just about everything apart, checked the fuel lines, air intake everything and could find nothing wrong. NASCAR said "we know your cheating we just can't figure out how so you are DG'd anyway. Smokey got all pissed off, tossed the empty gas tank in the car, started it up and drove it back to his pit. Theynever did figure out where the gas was or how he was getting it to the engine.
It's only cheatin' if you get caught is th ephilosphy of a lot of racers and most everyone will interpret rules to their advantage is possible. |
Coolice
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 11:49 pm: |
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Thanks Ben.....now I really have to get the drill and grinder after the bikes before Daytona  every ounce counts ;}
Forget the pics, someone find the SPEED video, they were all over us when we changed the the front tire and the shock, (sure glad I shaved the night before even tho we wear helmets) |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 07:52 am: |
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Pete,
Could be no different: with the MOTO-ST rules saying "internal engine modifations are allowed" there is a wealth of things that could be changed. Cam timing, exhaust length, valve diameters, port shapes & diameters, compression ratio, etc. They could very well have done the same work themselves: carefully assembled a 90-hp engine with a better torque curve than the other teams.
Mike, be careful with the drill & grinder! |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 11:05 am: |
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Looks like the Touring Sport Ducati 848 has been penalized for a "technical infraction", and that gives 1125R's 2nd and 3rd. |
Sd26
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 11:18 am: |
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And the Ducati PS1000LE...
Wow, must have been pretty explicit technical infractions! Zero laps for both... |
Sethbuchbinder
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 11:26 am: |
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Congrats to the whole crew at Hoban Bros/James gang racing, Jeff,Paul,Walt,Mike,John and the rest of the crew. It was great to be able to help out on your short staffed weekend. Just another case of Buell folks helping Buell folks. The whole team worked very well together even when the s#!+uation hit the fan and was looking like we were done.(Speaking of things hitting fans, thank goodness you dont run a fan on that bike or that shock would never have come out hehe)
+ 1 on Jan's request for pics and video.
See some of you at Summit.
Seth |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 11:35 am: |
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I think the 848 got a DQ for a wrong-size rear wheel. I heard it was still an OEM Ducati wheel (not a mag), but was wider so they could run the 190 on the rear. |
Blublak
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 11:42 am: |
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Pics are due soon.. I'm just now 'building' the pages..
I'll be putting up a decent 'sampler' from the event (not everything I shot, but enough that you should get a good look at what it was like.. )With a gallery for Friday and Saturday. Most of it of course, is on track stuff.. but there's a few paddock and pit shots thrown in..
With any luck, I'll have them up before I leave Saturday morning for the ASRA/CCS at Summit Point. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 05:41 pm: |
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here are a couple for now, more later
Here is the TV interview going on while they were repairing the bike, you can see the feed on the TV in the upper right.
Podium after a very eventful race. Congrats! |
Ebear
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 10:38 am: |
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GREAT SHOTS YOU GUYS!!!...LET'S SEE MORE!!!!!
Good job on the track!...You guys are making us PROUDER EVERY RACE!!!!! |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:03 pm: |
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:04 pm: |
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:09 pm: |
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:12 pm: |
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:15 pm: |
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I'll let Pete tell this story. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:18 pm: |
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:22 pm: |
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(Message edited by josé_quiñones on September 04, 2008) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 07:26 pm: |
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Blublak
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 08:08 pm: |
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Ok... As some of you may have noticed, the number 14 bike looks a lot like the James Gang machine.. Simple reason for that.. it is.
After fighting all season with making enough power to be competitive RnR Cycles showed up at NJMP with way too much power.. Go figure.. Anyway, after numerous dyno runs to get the bike legal they finally got it just under the cut off and were ready to go when the Friday practice and qualifying started. Practice went well as the two riders; Rick Beggs and Rachel Sasse worked on learning the track everything was coming together for a good run at the podium in the GST class..
During the qualifying run, Rick was suddenly spat off of the bike when the rear wheel freewheeled then suddenly locked up. They had qualified, but now could they fix the what had gone wrong? Once the bike was back in the pits they tore into it and found a broken crank. DAMN!! But once again, Buell racers are a great clan and James Gang stepped up and loaned them the 'B' bike for a short stint..
Once cleared with the officials and renumbered, Rick and Rachel would hit the track, very easily.. The team made six full laps complete with a rider change and pulled in. Once again ending a race on the sorry note of not being there at the checkered flag.
Next up.. an engine rebuild and the daunting 8 hours at Daytona!
Special thanks have to go to Jeff, Walt and everyone involved with James Gang Racing, they are true high quality folks, the kind you only really seem to find on a Buell. Additional thanks go to the Liberty HD team, for their friendship and assistance.
Once again, from the most privateer of the Buell teams to all those that lend the hand to the little guys.. Thanks...
(oh and thanks to the Ducati guys that got DQ'd and gave the team a boost in the finishing order)
(Message edited by BluBlak on September 05, 2008) |
Coolice
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 08:50 pm: |
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Jose- as always great pics/coverage-THANKS!
Peter- your welcome. I always do what I can to treat someone like I would like to be treated.
And the Bueller's just seem to bring that out more
See ya at Daytona. |
Ebear
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 10:58 am: |
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THANKS JOSE!! |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 10:13 pm: |
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Touring Sport Ducati are appealing their DQ. Seems they used a heavier 748 wheel when they broke their 848 wheel:
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=34039
Odd to take the time at the end of the article to throw stones at Buell & Aprilia. The Aprilia rig is huge and probably the closest to "factory", but its an odd claim anyway. I don't think they got any advantage, but I don't know about the appeal. Rules are rules, and non-uniform application of them is among the things that got AMA pro racing into the mess its in. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 10:27 pm: |
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I agree, even if a particular part is obviously not giving someone an advantage, rules are rules and they should be enforced. I feel for them- it must be very frustrating. However, rules are an attempt to make things as black and white as possible- grey areas are bad. If the wheel in question is not approved for the 848, it doesn't matter if it weighs 20lbs more than the stock wheel- it's illegal per the rules. Book closed. |
Smoke
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2008 - 06:51 am: |
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congrats to all the racers and teams!!
nice pics.
tim |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2008 - 09:37 pm: |
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Congrats to all the Buell racers!! |
Blublak
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2008 - 09:44 pm: |
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For those that are interested..
A selection of pictures (not everything of course, since I was there 'under contract' and got the teams permission to post some of the images) is now up at my website.. to take a look..
Click on http://www.undertheblackhat.net this link and enjoy..
Later, |
Schmitty
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2008 - 06:39 pm: |
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Awesome job guys!! Great all around effort.
Schmitty |
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