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Sd26
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 10:30 am: | 
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I think it's hard to promise anyone anything, really.
I'm not sure if Zemke, Hayes, Bostrom's care too much where they race, but as long as they are paid.
I like Hayes, but let's look at the position he's been in. Honda America has pegged him in their program as a 600 specialist, and, as a result, I'm sure that affects how much money he makes from his helmet and leather sponsors since he isn't in Superbike.
Either new series has no track record, but at least the AMA has a history, and the AMA and DMG have FIM affiliation directly. Basically, if you want to race WSB or MotoGP, etc. you need that FIM affiliation for your international racing license. I think I read something in the past month where the MIC was working on something with the FIM, and they have some kind of relationship.
MV, I don't think that's an issue right now. It's a non manufacturer for the most part. Interesting, but that's about it. Previous US distribution was through Ferraci, right? I bet he still has bike yet. My though would be that MV's changes, if any substantial ones, will be slow and calculated.
Most of the contracts don't get sorted out until just before Daytona. Sure, Mladin's will be sorted out, or if a team has an option on a rider that they want to keep, sure, they would get that done...like Hammer.
We're supposed to have a proposal into a company on a program for 2009, not for me racing, but what can one say about 2009? That it's going to happen on January 1st, that's about it. From there, it's all speculation. I can imagine costs, but I have no way of saying where the races might be.
Ultimately, the racers pay the price. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 02:38 pm: |
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Guys I wouldn't put to much into what Matt is saying. Its his opinion. He is used to racing in Europe and is not in any understanding of what goes on here. I have total faith in what is about to happen. Sorry Matt nothing against you but you come across like maybe your in the wrong business. With your knowledge of all Motorcycle racing in your and our country. You may want to be a announcer. Maybe take over Freddie Spencers Job. This season is coming to a end. If Matt jump's ship and goes racing elsewhere.... great. Hes been a whiner anyway. My opinion but I never liked his attitude anyway. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:40 pm: |
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I respect Mladin, but I'm not about to put much stock in the ranting of anyone who's pretty much in league with the Japan Inc. folks.
I respect Matt (Trojan) too, of course sometimes I cannot disagree with him more strongly.
The one thing that I think you are missing Matt is that AMA Superbike racing is pretty much a failure.
I cannot agree more with José's point that no one gives a hoot about a lap time being 1.5 seconds off or not. Most important is an engaging interesting racing series, something that the folks at DMG are all too expert in organizing.
Here's an idea. Let DMG add a no holds barred run whatever you like as long as it meets safety checks unlimited GP class. No requirements tied to production machines whatsoever, no limits on displacement, no limits on performance, allow unlimited modifications or no modifications, last years MotoGP machines, new MotoGP machines, stock bikes, or one-off prototypes, run a turbo, nitrous, active aero-surfaces, whatever, no limitations whatsoever. Call it "Unlimited Freedom American GP".
It might only initially fly at a few tracks for safety reasons, but once DMG has AMA Racing up and heading towards being a big success, they'll have the means to convince the other track owners to get their venues up to spec for such beastly fast machines.
Why not a spec series for two up racing? Why isn't there a two-up racing series? Not sidecars, a sit atop two-up series.
Why not a spec series for baggers? Can you imagine the enthusiasm from the cruiser crowd for an Electra-Glide class? Why not? If folks enjoy watching trucks run around a track, why not big touring bikes?
Fun to talk about.
I have a feeling that DMG knows what they are doing. I sure hope so. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:43 pm: |
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As far as Mladin's future, he's indicated that without Ben around to motivate him, he'd likely have already retired. The Kevin Schwantz - Matt Mladin Superbike School awaits? |
Smoke
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 06:11 pm: |
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i'm all for the bagger 700lb behemoth class racing!!! should drag in the cruiser crowd.
tim |
Sd26
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 06:15 pm: |
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Here's an idea. Let DMG add a no holds barred run whatever you like as long as it meets safety checks unlimited GP class. No requirements tied to production machines whatsoever, no limits on displacement, no limits on performance, allow unlimited modifications or no modifications, last years MotoGP machines, new MotoGP machines, stock bikes, or one-off prototypes, run a turbo, nitrous, active aero-surfaces, whatever, no limitations whatsoever. Call it "Unlimited Freedom American GP".
It might only initially fly at a few tracks for safety reasons, but once DMG has AMA Racing up and heading towards being a big success, they'll have the means to convince the other track owners to get their venues up to spec for such beastly fast machines.
Right, but previous Cup cars are more than capable of going 240MPH, as was proven some years ago when a team allowed an uncorked version of their car to be ran by a magazine.
They could have done that, and they had that in the early 70's, but success has been had in restriction. Treaded tires in F1, 800cc four strokes in MotoGP, etc.
Daytona Superbike IS THE CLASS. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 07:54 pm: |
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Blake,
Can I have some of whatever your wife sprinkled on your Cheerio's????? |
Indy_bueller
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
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I say let them have a Unlimited Factory Superbike class. The only stipulation would be that the bike has to either be a trike or have a side hack mounted. Big Four only.
If they don't like that then let them whine. They have had their way for long enough. Its time to make the sport an actual competition again. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:02 am: |
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Well I hope that I am wrong and the DMG series does turn out to be the universal panacea that everyone believes it will be.
However, those who think that racers will ride in a series just because it pays better than another don't know many racers.
Mladin was the highest paid racer in AMA (and probably the world in Superbike terms) but he is ready to turn his back on the money,as are plenty of others.
Ben Spies was reputedly asking for around US$3 million initially to make the switch from AMA to MotoGP, but that demand has now shrunk considerably I have heard, and that now he will take any competitive ride offered to him in MotoGP or WSBK.
Racers always want to race in the most competitive series that they can get into. I have never met a racer who would rather win a minor club race than come tenth in a national event, and it is this competitiveness that drives them just like any other sportsman. If it was just for the money many wouldn't bother.
If the MIC series is seen to have more prestige than DMG that is where the top riders will race, and vice versa.
If you want to see close racing scrap all the production based formulae and race 250 GP bikes........... Hang on...We've been here before  |
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 07:41 am: |
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Matt has spoken of retirement this year. That was at the beginning of the year before DMG announced any of their plan's. Infact it was announced by him on TV. Ben was on his way to GP before DMG announced what they were going to do. As far as competitive??? The Sport will be more. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:25 am: |
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Speaking of Mladin, a very interesting interview from Triangle Cycles in Danville, VA this past weekend where he basically admits that Suzuki was cheating and had Traction Control when it was illegal.
http://www.onthethrottle.tv/pages/page/mladin_vir_ 08/140_163_1165
Lots of cool videos on that site, including CCS/ASRA racing coverage.
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 21, 2008) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:33 am: |
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On the topic of getting paid vs racing the best, I think the money will win in the end.
Mladin already has a contract he's getting paid no matter where he races.
For the rest, DMG/AMA will absolutely outspend MIC, so privateer teams will make more money and greater exposure racing AMA vs the proposed MIC series.
Here's Neil Hodgson's take on it, among other topics:
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Aug/080819b.ht m
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 21, 2008) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:44 am: |
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Finally, all bikes in the FIM Homologation list for FIM Superstock (page 3) will be eligible for the new AMA American Superbike class, so factories don't have to do anything that they are not already doing for FIM Superstock to create an AMA spec Superbike.
http://fim.ch/en/default.asp?item=59#
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 21, 2008) |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:53 am: |
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Well, obviously, first of all, I just want to say what a mess it is. It's a complete mess, is all this. And I feel sorry for everybody, and I mean everybody, concerned. All the riders, I feel sorry for all the mechanics, I feel sorry for all the fans. Because this ego standoff we've got is not going to help anybody. It's certainly going to potentially, short-term, totally destroy racing in America. And I know people realize how big that is, but I think people will only realize how big it is when it's actually next year and people aren't racing.
Couldn't have put it better myself Neil |
Sd26
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:15 am: |
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Racers always want to race in the most competitive series that they can get into. I have never met a racer who would rather win a minor club race than come tenth in a national event, and it is this competitiveness that drives them just like any other sportsman. If it was just for the money many wouldn't bother.
Most competitive racers I know are on the other side. Where do I make money? If you spend $60k to $120k to buy your supersport ride and you might make $10k if you're really lucky, but you can make $10k to $20k at some weekends racing for contingency money. That's an easy answer.
Again, Robert Jensen gets offers, some for WSB, etc., but he's turned them down because they are for less money. Why take a pay cut? He did the AMA thing. He had Yamaha try to walk away with his cylinder head after the tear down at Brainerd. And he made very little money for that race.
The AMA's purse money has spiraled down for year.
Hodgson has no worries as he's salaried. Most riders in the AMA aren't. Hodgson's team is manufacturer/distributor supported too. So, it is the source of many of the problems.
I couldn't get HRC black boxes from Honda. They claimed they didn't exist, but I'd seen them. I knew HRC cams existed along with pistions, etc. And that was for Supersport.
Does anyone remember the BMW cup race from Daytona a few years ago? A very tightly managed set of rules. Was that a bad race? FUSA was very good in 2000 when that first came on the scene. John Ulrich couldn't pass that up too because there was a $50k team owner bonus for the championship.
If the racing organization continues to focus on what the manufacturer/distributor wants, then there will be no attainable rules package for teams, there will be a continuation of the lack of outside the industry sponsorship, and we'll continue to be able to predict the outcome of the races pretty much every weekend. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:17 pm: |
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All his whining and look what happened.
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=33814 |
Sd26
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:49 pm: |
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LOL! Yeah, like they needed to play outside the rules. But it's represents the lack of care for any rules. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:54 pm: |
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Thats the second time this year a factory team has been disqualified by tampering with the crank. I'm all for the new format. |
Sd26
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:56 pm: |
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I made a longer comment here...
http://www.wisconsinsportbikes.net/public_html/for ums/showthread.php?t=6173 |
Smoke
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 06:51 pm: |
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i find it strange that the statement doesn't point out in what way the crankshaft was non compliant on Mat's bike. it should come out on the appeal process i guess.
tim |
Sd26
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 07:39 pm: |
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If the pictures of Hayes' crankshaft weren't available, I don't know if we would have known exactly what was done to gain the attention of tech. Similarly for JU's team and their minor problem with tech.
Obviously, it's blatant as the AMA listed several lines from the rule book.
As an example, read the text of Hayes' disqualification.
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=31709 |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:22 pm: |
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I would rather race at the club level and and mix it up with 20-25 racers for a win, than race an unlimited bike with only 1-3 other racers able to keep close.....
But that's just me.... |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 05:02 am: |
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Thats the second time this year a factory team has been disqualified by tampering with the crank. I'm all for the new format.
Tampering is illegal under present Superbike/Superstock rules, so what makes you think that people won't try to do it under the new rules too?
Every team will always try to gain as much advantage as possible, most within the rules but some will deliberately resort to cheating if that is what it takes. Others may fall foul of the rules by accident or mistake, but it will always go on.
'Cheating' is probably far more prevalent than most people think, but it is only the winning bikes that ever get inspected or protested, so the others are never discovered (although widely suspected). I have raced against people that I knew were cheating with oversize engines, illegal fuel etc, but so long as we beat them it was pointless paying to protest their bikes.
It is only when you get to the realms of MotoGP that every single bike is scrutinised to the extent that deliberate cheating would be discovered all the way down the grid (and even then the rules are being pushed to the very edge of their meaning).
The closer the machines are in terms of performance and the more prize money/kudos is at stake then the more liklihood of cheating there will be, regardless of which rules are in force. |
Sd26
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:31 am: |
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Matt, that's a valid set of questions and ideas.
Will teams try it next year? First, for Daytona Superbike the rules are more open, and then there's the dyno. Kind of eliminates a lot of problems there.
Next, the penalties for cheating are $50,000 or $250,000 and can also incure one year to complete removal from the program.
The substantial risk that one puts their rider and team at is very, very high.
This year, the new tech inspector, which is well known to the factory teams, has done some work down the field in inspections, etc.
Look at what NASCAR did to Joe Gibbs racing recently as an example of how they worked with the problem of cheating where performance and prize money were at stake...but additionally the large sponsorship opportunities that the team has at peril with the cheating. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:31 am: |
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Yeah now Suzuki is resorting to cheating to beat Suzuki. Its getting old with the samo,samo. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:32 am: |
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As long as the rules are ENFORCED, there will be no problems.
Part of the Manufacturer's beef with DMG is that they actually, gasp, intend to ENFORCE THE RULES.
The previous AMA Pro Racing staff was infamous for selective rule enforcement, and the Factories liked it that way.
That game is over which is big part of the reason for this conflict.
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 22, 2008) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:38 am: |
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http://forums.cycleworld.com/cycleworld/board/mess age?board.id=racing&thread.id=2904
quote:I e-mailed DMG's Bill Syfan asking what aspect of Mladin's crank was not in compliance. I have not yet received a response.
Matthew Miles, Managing Editor, Cycle World magazine
Syfan's response:
"We anticipate an appeal from the team, so the most I can tell you is that the crankshaft from the #6 Superbike differed both visually and dimensionally from the homologated crankshafts it was compared to.
"The Rockstar Makita Suzuki Superbikes have been involved in all of the post-race technical inspections where they finished on the podium, but I don’t have a count on when and which components were inspected. The requirements in post-race tech vary from event to event."
Matthew Miles, Managing Editor, Cycle World magazine
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Sd26
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:47 am: |
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Well, based on the fact that the release stated Mladin's AMA DQ crank has four lines listed...
"Superbike, 2.4 Crankshaft
Only the homologated crankshaft is permitted with the following modifications:
a. Bearing surfaces may be polished or surface treated.
b. Balancing is permitted only by the same method used by the OEM. For example, heavy metal (i.e. Mallory metal) inserts are not permitted unless they were originally specified by the OEM.
c. Attachment of aftermarket ignition components or sensors is permitted.
d. Primary gears can not be changed or modified."
Sounds like it had the primary gear cut down, polished, and balanced, potentially, by cutting down the pork chops. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:39 am: |
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Every team will always try to gain as much advantage as possible
That's a very true statement, and when you get right down to it, isn't that really what the whole problem is now? The Japanese teams see the possibility of losing their advantage with the new rules and they are desperately fighting to maintain that advantage . . . even if it means creating a new series.
When you strip everything else away, isn't that really what it's all about? |
Elvis
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 07:17 pm: |
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Here's an interesting development:
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=33841
According to meeting participants who spoke on the condition that they not be named because they agreed not to comment, the promoters were unimpressed by the MIC's lack of a specific organizational plan to promote a rival series, an idea being spearheaded by American Honda's Ray Blank and American Suzuki's Mel Harris.
"There won't be an MIC Series," said one racetrack representative.
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Sd26
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 07:33 pm: |
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Interesting. Certainly helps teams and riders recognize what they might be doing in 2009. |
Aeholton
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 08:11 pm: |
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The promoters responded favorably to DMG's offer to replace lost sponsorship should Honda and Suzuki refuse to sponsor AMA Superbike races and involved racetracks in 2009 and beyond, the sources said.
Looks like DMG has their ducks in row. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 07:52 am: |
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just a couple more weeks.
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=33868 |
46champ
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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There will be an exodus of riders in the next 5 years. When DMG proves that they will pay and that they will enforce the rules, the riders will be leaving Europe and moving here. Wanting to race in the most competitive series and race for just the glamor only lasts till the family needs to be started and the first house has to be bought. |
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