| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
I see the Roman Emperor is still making friends out there. He'll be on a satellite Ducati 1098R for 2008. Wonder for how many seasons they'll put up with him? | ||
| Rocketman |
I think the bloke takes a lot of stick for much of his intense professionalism. I only saw him ride once, in the British GP on the Camel Honda. He had a dismal race and it was disappointing to watch him. But he has never been anything but a great rider and racer. It's a shame he's not on a top flight ride in Moto GP. It's also bloody disgusting that Honda have blocked his ride with a satellite Honda team in Moto GP for 2008. Who the hell do those running Honda think they are. They disgust me with every way in which they manipulate two and four wheel racing the world over. Worse still, it's more and more becoming par for the course with Japanese manufacturers. Rocket | ||
| Jaimec |
Max had the opportunity to learn a lot from his team mate Nicky Hayden on his last year in MotoGP. Basically, it's "Ride the bike, and SHUT UP." When Nicky had problems with his bike, he took it up with his tuner and his team. When Nicky had a bad race because he screwed up, he readily admitted it. With Max, it was NEVER his problem, it was always someone else's fault. And if he did have problems with the bike, he took it up with the motorcycling journalists as much as he did with his team. Based on what I read about his year in WSBK, he had learned a little about humility from his enforced year off. It was more his salary and perks demands that put the Alstare team off of resigning him for 2008. When you burn a bridge, don't expect it to be rebuilt behind you. He is without a doubt a very talented rider, but the MotoGP teams seem to realize he is also a prima donna who is more trouble than he is worth. Honda just blackballed him from THEIR teams, but you don't see the other teams lining up to sign him either, do you? | ||
| Trojan |
Honda just blackballed him from THEIR teams, but you don't see the other teams lining up to sign him either, do you? Max had blotted his copy book at Yamaha too remember? He had the M1 first but couldn't develop it like Rossi did, so made very public and disparinging comments about the bike and the team even before he jumped ship for Honda. Yamaha & Honda have always been very sensitive to criticism and it is certainly nothing new, look at the treatment that Barry Sheene got from Yamaha in the '80s. They would not give him equal machinery to Kenny Roberts because Barry had made comments about Yamaha following his disastrous 1972 250/350 World Championship year riding for them. Phil Read has been completely expunged from official Yamaha history, despite winning numerous world championships for them in the 60s & 70s. His sin was that he disobeyed team orders and beat Bill Ivy to a GP win. The story is that the two never spoke after the incident (although I have heard the other side of the story from Phil Read jr) and Ivy was killed shortly afterwards testing for MZ in East Germany. Phil Read rode for Yamaha after that time, but years later they decided that he was now persona non grata and removed him from their history. Hell hath no fury like a motorcycle manufacturer scorned ;) | ||
| Jaimec |
Like I said... when you burn a bridge, you automatically assume it's PERMANENT. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
New action and great free videos for the 08' season at : www.worldsbk.com | ||
| Jaimec |
I missed this past weekend's races, but from all reports they sounded GREAT. Here's hoping that the 2008 MotoGP season offers racing as close and exciting as World Superbike! | ||
| Trojan |
Early days yet, but 6 out of the top 10 rode Ducati in race 2, some of whom are hardly expected to be front runners this season (Jan Who?). So much for the 1200cc limit for twins being equal to the 1000cc IL4's. Maybe the Hondas need more development, but the Yamaha & Suzukis should be ready to go as they are pretty much the same as last season. I'll bet on a knee jerk reaction from the Big 4 by the end of this year if the 1200 format continues to prove dominant. | ||
| Jaimec |
I've seen the argument go back and forth, ESPECIALLY here on a board dedicated to V-Twin sporting motorcycles... but I still fail to see WHY it is necessary to give more displacement to a motorcycle with fewer cylinders. Certainly the four cylinder bikes in MotoGP had no problem competing against Honda's five cylinder RCV, and they were all limited to 990cc. I also thought it was ludicrous that Buell needed 1350cc to be competitive against four cylinder motorcycles of less than HALF that displacement. If it's a 1000cc displacement limit, then it should be a 1000cc displacement limit regardless of number of cylinders. | ||
| Jackbequick |
The bottom line is not displacement, it is more HP at the tire contact patch on the track surface. Wouldn't you rather see racing where the riders are on fairly closely matched bikes as far as performance and the racing is about the rider with the better skills? What you describe is okay in some kind of open class racing where unlimited development is allowed. But even then, only if enough people field efforts to make it economically viable to run a track and host a race. No one runs race tracks to lose money and sponsors don't sponsor things with little or no fan base. Were is not for the attempts to balance formulas to get more brands of motorcycles involved, many racing scenes would be grim to watch. It has kept the American racing scene from becoming a HoKaSuYa parade and I'm fine with that. Jack (Message edited by jackbequick on February 26, 2008) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Jamie... Take a 16oz bottle of soda (lid on tight  ) and shake it up and down through a 1 foot swing. Count how many times you can do this in 20 seconds. Now take an 8 oz bottles of juice or something and do the same thing, and count how many times you can do this in 20 seconds. You will find it is something like twice as fast. But now take two hands, an 8 oz bottle in each, and do both at the same time. You will get a LOT more shakes with two hands and two 8 oz bottles then on hand and a 16 oz bottle. This means more power. There are other reasons as well, that are harder to illustrate first hand. You can play with stroke as well... see how fast you can move through a 24' arc versus a 6" arc. If you can move it through a 6" arc more then 4x faster then the 24 inch arc, your short stroke motor is making more power then your long stroke one. I don't get the obsession with limiting racing classes by displacement. I'd rather see racing limited by $$ invested, by weight, by durability, or by fuel consumed. All of those criteria seem to make as much (and perhaps more) sense then displacement. | ||
| Blublak |
+1 Jack.. almost.. AMA Superbike has been pretty damn boring in the last couple of years.. That said, the displacement variances have a lot to do as said, with available power. Think about it, Jamie, you ride a 1200cc bike. Have you ever tried to straight line against a 1000cc IL4? Once those bikes get into their higher RPM's it's all over for the pushrod set. We're subject to valve float and other problems at those kinds of revolutions. So the XBRR can use more air, moving slower then the 600's it's up against. The 1200cc rule in WSBK and now AMA is to allow the Ducati to run much closer to street bike. WSBK usually runs bikes a lot closer to showroom compared to AMA, which means the races tend to be much closer and more a matter of man AND machine.. While (IMHO) AMA tends to lean more towards the machine. Before someone whips out their torches... I think Maladin and Spies are great riders, we have a lot of great riding talent racing in the US today. However, since AMA rules have allowed so much modification to Superbikes it's not even funny any more. Suzuki dominates the class here with Yoshimura putting a full custom worx bike on the track (they have admitted in 2007 the only stock items were the main frame spar and the outer engine cases)A few years ago, Maladin took his Suzuki to Phillip Island and ran a few practice/testing days there with the WSBK teams. He slaughtered them all. Yet, when he was riding on the international scene he wasn't anywhere near as dominating as to put to shame the other machines and riders. WSBK is more about the Indian and less about the Arrow. If you follow me on that. Because of this, in any WSBK race, you can see five bikes in the lead pack and something like 10 to 15 changes in leader. Compare that close and exciting racing to the Mat and Ben show and you will hopefully agree with me that more comparable bikes racing is better racing for the riders, the fans and the manufactures. Back to the 1200 rule. Ducati asked for the increase due to the fact that the 999r's they were running would need a total engine rebuild after ever weekend with an average life of the motor something like 500 miles due to the state of tune they had to run to be closer to equal against Japan Inc. AMA wouldn't even allow them to run those bikes here (I think someone was afraid that they might actually be competitve and show up some of the big race sponsors). Now they (Ducati) feel they can compete on a much closer to stock engine and thereby be able to afford to continue racing without breaking their smaller bank. The fact that riders on their new 1098R's (actually 1198cc) were up front for a lot of the last two races says they have a winning combination. Yamaha's two factory bikes (Haga and Corser) did well in the first race, until Haga highsided himself out of contention and Corser finished on the box. In the second race, Haga and Corser were running away from the rest of the pack but Haga's injured wrist was obviously bothering him (from the high side) and he fell off pace. Corser seemed to have tire problems as he started to go backwards by mid race. Nieto (Suzuki) won the second race with all that power (he was faster down the main straight then all the Ducati's - and everyone else too boot). Lastly, look at who we're talking about here as riders go. Corser and Haga are great riders, Bayliss, Biaggi, Xaus and Fabrizio are some really big guns if you think about it. Nieto, Kagiyama, Checa, Muggeridge et. al. these are some of the finest riders in the world. Most have either ridden MotoGP, been offered MotoGp or could ride it. Any of them could be successful here in AMA, but the difference as I see it, is that WSBK offers them all a chance to be competitive and win. Unless you're on a full factory team in the US, you usually don't stand a chance and that seems to be the way they have been trying to keep it. Phew.. sorry I got so long winded.. Hopefully, that helps with some of your questions. | ||
| Trojan |
The 1200cc rule in WSBK and now AMA is to allow the Ducati to run much closer to street bike. Until they start getting beaten. At that time you can guarantee that the tuning will get more and more exotic until we are in the same situation we were left in last year with the 999. Ducati have already lost one battle with BSB regarding fitting 'special' pistons to their 1098 race bikes because they said the stock pistons were not strong enough. Ducati didn't fight for the 1200 rle to give them a cheaper option. They faught tooth and nail for it so that it gave them an advantage before they even started tuning. Personally I hope that KTM, enter the competition and give Ducati a good spanking at their own game ;) With Aprilia & BMW also set for entries next year I don't think the 1098R will be top dog for long.  | ||
| Jaimec |
The BMW will be an IL4 like the Japanese so they won't be running a bigger engine. BMW is smart enough to know that you DON'T go into a racing series with an automatic handicap (heavier pistons, and everything else pointed out by Reepicheep above). If you want to win, BUILD WHAT WINS! Don't build what you like, and then try to get the rules changed to accommodate you. What kind of BS is that? And for those who claim that makes boring racing let me tell you... the most exciting motorcycle race I ever saw was the BMW Boxercup, where all of the racers were on IDENTICAL motorcycles (save paint jobs). The focus was then on the RIDER and I saw racers diving into corners five abreast at Daytona, knocking cylinder heads hard enough to be heard in the stands. THAT was racing! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I agree with Blublak. The reason the 1098R did so good in Qatar, was the abilities of their riders. Bayliss Xaus Biaggi would have top 6 finishes on any bike. I think TenKate is an important factor. As soon as they make the new CBR competitive, the races will be more interesting. It is very soon to assume that the 1098R has an advantage over IL4s. If it is proven that there is an advantage, there will be a weight penalty and an intake restriction from 50 to 47mm Lets enjoy the races, and forget about displacement. | ||
| Jaimec |
Vagelis, I agree. It's not like it was a bunch of unknowns on those Ducatis. It's a little bit hasty to predict the entire season on the first race weekend so I'll reserve judgement. I will, however, state that it was VERY exciting to see MULTIPLE riders fighting for the lead, instead of watching one rider all alone at the front, with the fight being for second place... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
When BMW, KTM and Aprilia joins WSBK, it will be even more interesting and exciting. | ||
| Blake |
"So much for the 1200cc limit for twins being equal to the 1000cc IL4's." Matt, Did you not see the Suzukis walking past the Ducatis on the straights? You of all people should know that there is a LOT more to a competitive racing machine that peak HP. The Ducs I saw had no advantage in power to the other bikes on the track. They did seem to handle a lot better though. | ||
| Blake |
Jaimie, Engine performance capability comes down to one very rudimentary parameter, the ability of the engine to process (suck in and ignite) as much air+fuel mixture as possible in a given amount of time. An engine that is able to suck in and combust more air+fuel has the potential to generate more power. All else being equal, more cylinders equals more valves equals more total intake area, which in turn allows more efficient charging of the engine with more air+fuel. It's really that simple. Engineers and high performance experts refer to this parameter as "volumetric efficiency." With all else being equal, more cylinders means higher volumetric efficiency, which in turn means a greater potential for more power. As far as the Buell 1350, other factors comes into play. A lower rev limit directly hampers an engine's ability to process more air+fuel, and only two valves per cylinder does so as well. Really quite simple, yes? Different configurations of engines have different potential performance. To achieve parity on the track, racing organizations assign different displacement limits and/or different minimum weights to the different machines based upon their potential engine performance. But some folks have fallen victim to the Japan Inc myth that displacement is the ONLY real measure of potential engine performance. It is a lie. The MotoGP rules assign higher minimum weights to machines using more cylinders. That is their way of seeking parity among different configurations of engines. It would be just as valid for them to assign different displacement limits. | ||
| Trojan |
Blake, The Suzuki has 2 years development behind it and Fonsi Nieto is a GP winner, so I would have expected both them and Yamaha to be right up the front in the first few races (Yamaha were the big disapointment in Qatar). I also accept the the BIG names riding for Ducati (Bayliss/Biaggi/Xaus) will be expected to be at the front. What surprises me are the Ducati second string riders performances (Fabrizio/Lanzi/Smrz) from a package that is still being developed. Fabrizio has never really shone before, Lanzi is inconsistent and Smrz is? Either the 1098 is much better than people expected or there is a lack of depth to the WSB field in 2008, which I suspect may be true as well. Vagelis is also very right regarding Ten Kate. Their Honda was way off the pace at the first race by their high standards, but they only had the bike for around 2 weeks and have a lot of development to come yet. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Did you not see the Suzukis walking past the Ducatis on the straights? You of all people should know that there is a LOT more to a competitive racing machine that peak HP. The Ducs I saw had no advantage in power to the other bikes on the track. They did seem to handle a lot better though." So, the Ducati made less power but managed to do well in the race because it handled better than the IL4s. I could agree with this. Would this have been the case for the XBRR if it handled better than the 600cc IL4s? I guess it did not, so the IL4s did better than the XBRR in FX. I think the XBRR has the same rubber mounts and tie rods as the XB12 for the chassis-engine connection, right ? How can an arrangement like this give decent handling on a race, to the same level as a tuned R6 ?? Is it possible to give a rigid chassis ? | ||
| Blublak |
Vagelis, the XBRR is still a wonder of A/C twin technology to be sure. And I'm sure it handles just fine, if not better then that. However, compared to the machines it was running against in AMA FX it had NO development time. Most of the bikes that finished above the Buell were all long time residents of the class, had all been through an awful lot of work and finally had a lot more money for that work that was done on them. I'd bet that IF there had been a big money sponsor and a year or two full development on the bike that it would have improved it's performance. Think about it. Buell put out the XBRR and it was racing almost before the riders had their leathers on. I think a valid comparison would be to buy ANY bike and take it from the showroom and run it against developed and modified dedicated race machines. Not many have been able to win doing that and I can't think of any that have able to do so in the upper ranks of a professional race series. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It was good that Checa on the CBR got 2nd in race2. It seems that the new CBR is already competitive. It will add to the racing. It is also good to see a veteran doing well. It seems that the 1098R is easier on the tires than the IL4s, especially Yamaha. It shows that the 'big-bang' power delivery is easier on the tires, even with an extra of +2kg of torque. I wonder when will see a 'big-bang' production IL4 1000cc, and then in SBK. When will a Japanese factory go for it ? Yamaha and Kawasaki already have this 'big-bang' technology for Il4s, from motoGP. So what is stopping them ? Money? They have plenty ! | ||
| Jima4media |
There is more that goes on in race bikes than displacement and the number of cylinders. RPM, fuel maps, motor control, traction control, slipper clutch are all important also. That is why 800cc MotoGP bikes are 3-4 seconds per lap faster than liter IL-4s, and 1098 Twins in Superbike. YMMV | ||
| Jaimec |
Anonymous chimed in on the MotoGP thread that big bang engines make sense primarily when the redlines get up into the stratosphere as it is also a way of eliminating crankshaft "whip" at those elevated speeds. Maybe in a homolgation special, but never in a production streetbike. The extra engineering cost would put off the average buyer, I think. | ||
| Blake |
What extra engineering cost? You mean to switch the production engine over to a new configuration? You may have a point, but I think that doing so would lure a whole new market to the first manufacturer to offer such a machine for the street. And don't they come out with new engines fairly often anyway? I might actually dig an IL4 600cc machine in a big bang configuration. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, I was thinking the exact opposite, that the field in WSBK this year was exceptionally deep. Bayliss, Haga, Corser, Biagi, Checa, Xaus, Nieto... Really VERY impressive. | ||
| Blake |
Hello Jim old buddy. "There is more that goes on in race bikes than displacement and the number of cylinders." That is an exceptionally accurate statement. The topic of discussion concerns the reasoning for bestowing significant displacement advantages to twin cylinder machines versus their four cylinder competition. With all else being equal and optimum, displacement and cylinder count are what bound/limit the performance level of a racing engine. Volumetric efficiencies (the ability of an engine to fill its combustion chambers with as much fuel/air charge as possible) may still be improving as technology marches forward; I'm sure they are. However, Physics dictates that in high performance well-tuned/optimized racing machines having comparable rev limits, a four cylinder configuration will always achieve superior volumetric efficiency in the realm of peak HP than two cylinders. Or if the four cylinder machine opts for a higher rev limit, then it may sacrifice some VE at high engine speeds in exchange for more revs. Either way, the significant advantage goes to the machine with more cylinders, especially when the ratio is two to one as it is in WSBK with the IL4's versus the L-Twin Ducatis. Yes? | ||
| Ducxl |
What extra engineering cost? There was a report about how it is becoming more and more difficult for Ducati with an ever MORE oversquare design.THe pistons have extremely short skirts and the problem was reported as in piston design parameters. The races were fun to watch today on "speed".All the while i was busy finalizing and buttoning up my 12r from traditional winter maintainance.Wonderful thing Buells,beer,and WSBK on TV  | ||
| Blake |
Duc, Jamie wrote: "big bang engines make sense primarily when the redlines get up into the stratosphere as it is also a way of eliminating crankshaft "whip" at those elevated speeds. Maybe in a homolgation special, but never in a production streetbike. The extra engineering cost would put off the average buyer, I think." By "big bang" I (and Erik according to Jamie) are referring to four cylinder engines that fire two cylinders at once. You seem to be talking about something else entirely.  I need sleep! (Message edited by Blake on March 03, 2008) |
