| Author | Message | ||
     Benm2 |
Easy. Kevin Schwantz. | ||
| Bads1 |
Sure was back in 93. | ||
| Rocketman |
He had the best helmet. That I grant you. The Schwantz CamoUFLAGE in support of GW1.   Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
I don't know what some folks expect, for a MotoGP racer to win the championship using inferior machine? Never happened, never will. As Rocket has already said, Rossi won the title two years on the trot on a bike that was measurably inferior to the Hondas at the time. Everybody thought that Rossi was mad to leave Honda to ride a bike that was dismally inadequate, and almost everyone said that he would not succeed on it. It has only been his ability that has kept the Yamaha in the top 3 ever since. No other rider has won a single race on a Yamaha since 2002, which just shows the depth of his input to the team. Unfortunately Yamaha have rested on their laurels, thinking that Rossi can win on any bike they give him, so have fallen behind significantly in development since then. He has been trying to get them (and Michelin) to improve since the end of 2005, so this isn't an overnight fall from grace. Trying to hold up Stoner's performance for a 2nd tier (non-factory) team as indicative of his skills relative to the top factory competitors seems like a stretch to me. By the middle of the 2006 season Stoners LCR Honda was exactly the same spec as the Repsol bikes and the Gresini machines. Honda threw everything at even the satellite teams in an affort to stop Rossi winning the title again. The 990 era was at the end of its development, and the Honda had been the dominant force throughout that era if you take Rossi out of the equation. Nobody is saying that Stoner is not a great rider, or that he didn't deserve to win the title this year. If you win 10 out of 17 races then of course you deserve it. This argument is about how much advantage the Ducati & Bridgestone tyres actually gave him, and that is significant. The writing was on the wall at the last GP of 2006, when Troy Bayliss (a great rider, but one who hadn't even sat on a GP bike for 12 months!) won at Valencia with Capirossi second. I just hope that the playing field is a b it more level in terms of machinery and tyres for 2008 and we can look forward to a good close fight for the title again, regardless of who the protaganists are. On the question of who is the best? That is an impossible question simply because you cannot compare modern machinery to bikes of even 20 years ago. My vote though for the greatest of all time goes to the late great and sadly lamented Mike Hailwood.  He had the ability to get on any bike and ride it to the absolute limit almost imediately, and would often race in 4 or more classes in a day on a huge variety of machines ranging from single cylinder 125 Ducatis to exotic 6 cylinder Hondas. His comeback at the Isle of Man on the Ducati was incredible, but even more impressive was his ride on the RG500 Suzuki the same year, even though he didn't win the race. Of the modern era it has to be Rossi. Nobody yet comes close in terms of results. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It seems that everybody have their favourites riders, favourite bikes, etc. But the history writes about the champions and their machinery. Who was 3rd on 2003 and on which bike?? Anyone remember ? Propably noone, unless they look it up..... I am sure, that to get a championship in motoGP is really hard, noone gives it away. Also it is pretty clear now that noone can get the title with a bad bike. So to say that Rossi won in 04, 05 with a bad bike, is only claims from Rossi fans, that not even Rossi can claim that.... The same goes to Hayden and Stoner. | ||
| Trojan |
Also it is pretty clear now that noone can get the title with a bad bike. So to say that Rossi won in 04, 05 with a bad bike, is only claims from Rossi fans, that not even Rossi can claim that.... It wasn't a bad bike, but it wasn't as good as the Hondas he was racing against. That isn't my opinion but that of just about every journalist and tester that rode the bikes back to back at the end of the 04 & 05 season. Every informed source acknowledges that the Yamaha was an inferior package to the Honda, so it isn't just the opinion of Rossi hyper fans. Just look at the performance of the other Yamah riders since the M1 was introduced. Barros, Biaggi, Abe, Edwards etc could not get anywhere near Rossis performances on the same bike. | ||
| Jaimec |
Getting back to my comment, Blake. In both years, after the seasons were over, the motojournalists were all given the opportunity to ride the various bikes. In each case, TO A MAN, they ALL picked the Honda RCV as the superior bike. I don't make these things up, I actually do read these things because I find it fascinating. Even then, the Yamahas were down on power compared to the Hondas and Ducatis. Ducati has just finally managed to add "handling" to what was always a superior engine package. | ||
| Jaimec |
My vote for best (beyond Rossi) would have to go to the only man who won the 250cc AND the 500cc championship IN THE SAME YEAR. Fast Freddy Spencer! | ||
| Benm2 |
The championship rewards consistent top results, and those come from ALL those on the team, not just the rider. The team effort that builds championships works around "weaknesses". Maybe Burgess listens better & can produce a setup that works for Rossi, who knows how to communicate with him. Maybe Edwards doesn't, maybe he's just not that fast. The opinions of the journalists must be taken with a grain of salt. Riding those bikes anywhere near as hard as the racers do would be ridiculous. Plus racers may setup the bikes to be "scary" in such a way that works for them. Just because the Honda may have been easier to ride at 98% doesn't mean the same holds true when you're trying to stuff an M1 inside of a RCV in the last turn of Assen. Rossi better be fast on the Bridgestone's next year, or he will be recategorized to the "why I didn't win today" whiners club. I expect that the Honda & Yamaha motors will be MUCH stronger next year, and that Michilen will have better tires. Hopefully it will lead to more interesting racing than this year, but predicting now is just silly. Who'd have picked Ducati/Stoner/Bridgestone to blow out the 2007 championship at the end of the 2006 season? Not me. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"That isn't my opinion but that of just about every journalist and tester that rode the bikes back to back at the end of the 04 & 05 season. " If these journalists or testers were fast enough to evaluate to 100% the different motoGP bikes, well, they would be racing in motoGP. If there are people that want to think that Rossi can get the title (not just 1-2 wins)with a inferior package, well so be it. I also used to think that it was possible with Rossi on the bike, but now I find it impossible to accept it. Maybe the racing motoGP sport needs big heroes for the fans, like Leonidas of Sparta, that althought in a disadvantage can still win. | ||
| Blake |
I just don't much care for excuse-making or diminishing the achievements of any championship winner. For some it seems that if Rossi doesn't win the championship, there must be some major issue that prevented him from doing so. Yeah, his competition beat him. And Stoner didn't just beat him, he cleaned the race track with him and everyone else in the field. When Colin Edwards was able to challenge for the lead or win a spot on the podium with the Yamaha, was he too having to do so on an inferior machine? Baloney. The twists and turns presented are hard to follow... the Ducati is superior, but only for Stoner... the Yamaha was inferior, but not for Colin, only for Rossi... the Honda was superior, but not for Dani... good grief. I wish mighty Mick Doohan had been able to continue on for the start of the four stroke era. | ||
| Trojan |
I give up....It isn't just magazine road testers (some of whom such as Alan Cathcart are not exactly slow!) that have said the Yamaha was an inferior bike. Every professional GP rider that has left the Yamaha team over the last 5 years to ride elsewhere said exactly the same, including Biaggi, Checa, Barros, Nakano & Jacque. If the bike was that good why has nobody else even come close to winning on it in the last 5 years? There have of course been other times in history when a rider has won world titles on inferior machinery, including when Eddie Lawson won on the Yamaha against all the odds, Kevin Schwantz's world title with Suzuki, Kenny Roberts Jr's title win and even Phil Read winning the last 4 stroke title (before MotoGP) on the MV against the dominant 2 strokes of the period. Many times titles are won because of other peoples misfortunes, but just once in a while a rider comes along that is good enough to overcome the odds against them to win. Why is it that you cannot accept that Rossi is probably the best that his generation will produce, despite all the evidence in front of you? When Stoner has won 7 world titles maybe he will be remembered in the same way? | ||
| Jaimec |
Just as there are "Rossi Hyper fans," there are also apparently "Rossi Hyper Haters," Matt. They know what they know and don't want to be confused with facts. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Talk of the best gp rider ever and no mention of Agostini? Giacomo himself was a race winning machine back in his day. | ||
| Rocketman |
I just don't much care for excuse-making or diminishing the achievements of any championship winner. Really Blake. How not very sporting of you towards the losers  And Stoner didn't just beat him, he cleaned the race track with him and everyone else in the field. But you are happy to diminish the talents of the greatest loser of all time? Stoner is a wet behind the ears MotoGP good racer. He is most definitely not a great just because he won 1 championship. That would be 1 championship gifted to Stoner by way of the greatest competition in the field being hindered by inferior tyres. Forget the Ducatis excellent handling and performance. There were several times this year where Rossi showed he could beat the Ducati. Had Stoner been a great such would not be the case. Put it another way. Had Rossi been on the Ducati no one else all season would have won a race. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Baloney. I happen to be a HUGE Rossi fan. Just not to the point of discounting the success of any other champions or their accomplishments. Was Rossi on the best bike/tires when he was with Honda? Okay then, throw those championships out the window then since according to the logic being thrown out here, he's only really proved himself to win two championships in MotoGP, the ones on the Yamaha. If he was a great as some make him out to be, he wouldn't have come in 3rd this year, would he have? Edwards came as close as you can get to winning on the Yamaha without doing so. I guess that was his superior skill with an inferior machine. | ||
| Jaimec |
Absolutely. Edwards has won the World Superbike title more than once. One doesn't do that if one is a mediocre rider. He is also widely recognized as the second best development rider on the grid. | ||
| Rocketman |
Was Rossi on the best bike/tires when he was with Honda? Okay then, throw those championships out the window then since according to the logic being thrown out here, he's only really proved himself to win two championships in MotoGP, the ones on the Yamaha. I'm not a Rossi fan. I aren't really a fan of anyone on the grid to be honest. There are several racers I like to watch, and I get behind then in a manner of speaking, lol. Hopper might have made a bad move for next season. We'll see. I can't see King James going with Tech 3 without the team making huge leaps upwards next season. James believes that to be the case. I have no reason to doubt his judgement and I would love to see him running at the front. De Puniet impresses me. Rossi remains the rider to beat, but he is always the one that brings spectacular racing no matter the race. Pedrosa is a class act. To put his blistering pace down to his weight advantage is ridiculous. You don't win world championships consistently at his young age in 125 and 250, and runner up in MotoGP because you have a weight advantage. Pedrosa is a future champ. Melandri has battled a few odds this season. I love his aggressive riding style and I hope he's the star on the Ducati. Nicky is a lovely bloke isn't he. He really struggles with his set-up. What a shame. He's a great consistent fast racer, and what I like about him is he's never far behind. I'd like to see him in the very front mix often. But you know what, even if Rossi was or is on the best bike, we can all excuse him for winning because we know that he is so much more than the bike or any other racer. That's the point when he wins. We know he's the real deal. Rocket | ||
| Benm2 |
Its never apples to apples, is it? The top ranks are full of raw deals, miraculous comebacks, saves, passes, stuffs, bad choices, and poorly timed highsides. Sure makes it fun to watch, and the bench racing from the spectators couch isn't too bad either. Stoner did a hell of a job. If you stuck me on the Ducati, I'd be lapped within 3 minutes of the green flag. On an M1, the result wouldn't be much different. I imagine that the bulk of the fans fall into a similar category, give or take a lap or two. ;) It's tough to pick a favorite of all time, with Agostini, Hailwood, Spencer, Roberts, Rainey, Doohan, Lawson, Sheene, and so on to choose from. Spencer's double title was amazing. Schwantz was podium-or-paddy personified. Rossi has passed in places where it just shouldn't have been possible. He has a way of finding front grip that eludes everyone else. Ben Spies and Hopper can drag their friggin' ELBOWS. I can barely get my knee down. Awesome stuff. Still hate Mladin though. (if he's really that good, then take a run with the big dogs. Till then, STFU) I've never met him, given the chance I'm certain my opinion would change, after all its tougher to be a d**k in person. This is SO much more fun than arguing about politics.... | ||
| Rocketman |
Thanks to the Borg........ Stolen from Ferrarichat 'Ferrari Formula One legend Michael Schumacher has shown he is no slouch on two wheels today in Valencia with an incredible performance on Casey Stoner’s world championship-winning factory Ducati. Seven-times Formula One world champion Schumacher has clocked an incredible best lap of 1.37.89 in a special guest ride on Stoner’s GP7. That time is just a fraction over five seconds outside of Dani Pedrosa’s new lap record, which the Spaniard set in winning the Valencia GP yesterday. Repsol Honda rider Pedrosa’s new lap record in the 30-lap race was a 1.32.748. Schumacher is no stranger to Ducati’s MotoGP bike as rode a 990cc Desmosedici at the Mugello circuit in Italy back in 2005. Today he completed 58-laps and admitted he was surprised to have set such an impressive pace, and he wasn’t even using super powerful carbon brakes, preferring instead to run steel brakes normally used in MotoGP in the rain. “It is difficult to come here and set times. I remember the last time I was riding and I was about 15 seconds slower than what you could do, so I thought maybe if I could run within ten seconds, that would nice, “said Schumacher, who rode Stoner’s bike on which the Aussie dominated on in 2007, winning 10 races to crush Valentino Rossi and Pedrosa. He said was impressed with the performance of the 22-year-old and said: “I am very impressed. If you remember that last year no one would have bet on him at all and Ducati took the risk to take him on board. Sure he got a good bike and there is the tyre situation but he beat his team-mate and other guys on the same tyres so a big credit to him. He rode it so smoothly, so perfectly, I’m very impressed.” Was he surprised to be so fast? “As I said I didn’t expect anything, I just wanted to be quicker than last time and I achieved this.” Schumacher was given some useful pointers by Randy Mamola for his first ride on an 800cc MotoGP bike. “Randy is good friend and he gives me tips and explains to me what I’m doing wrong. It was nice to ride in the end together and see him and he explained to me a couple of details. It is a great help if you have an experienced guy around you, “added the German, who used special pads on the fuel tank to help him grip the bike with his legs. He said the 800 was smoother and easier to ride than the ’05 990 he previously rode, but shrugged off any suggestion that he would contemplate competing in a MotoGP race in the future. “I’m just doing this for fun. I don’t I want to race, “said Schumacher, who at 38 is the same age as Ducati’s factory World Superbike star Troy Bayliss. “Maybe we could be team-mates, “laughed Schumacher, who won five world titles with Ferrari before retiring at the end of 2006. Harley rider Schumacher said he wouldn’t find it difficult to go back to riding on the road after his taste of Stoner’s bike, saying: “My Harley is pretty fast. I love motorbikes so I ride motorbikes. There is a little track and I do some supermoto in Italy and several other things." Schumacher said that he couldn’t think of anything else he could compare the feeling of riding a MotoGP bike to, not even a Formula One car. “I tried to find a good comparison but it is difficult to say. It is impossible to compare the two (Formula One and MotoGP), as they have nothing to do with each other. It helps you to find the line because when you drive you understand what you have to do, in principle, but not in detail. But to compare these two things is two different worlds - it is like being on earth and going to the moon.” Schumacher ducked being drawn on the Ferrari and McLaren spy controversy that rocked Formula in 2007. He added: “I’m lucky enough that I don’t have to explain. It was a pleasure to look from the outside with everything that was going on and it was an even bigger to pleasure to see that we (Ferrari) won both championships.” Asked what he thought of the thrilling title between Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen, Schumacher said: “The best one won.” I like Cecil's comment. Hmmmm... What does that say about Casey Stoner and the championship? Was it the bike or was it him? I suppose if it were the bike that Capirossi would have done better. But let's face it, the Pramac team was on the podium this year and now Michael Schumacher is able to run within 5 seconds of a MotoGP rider's lap time? The latter is pretty amazing! That would mean Schumi could be extremely competitive in AMA and possibly even WSBK. And he admits to not being much of a rider...relatively speaking of course. So what's up with that? I can't put my finger on it, tire rules, displacement rules, advances in technology, etc... But something is moving MotoGP in the WRONG direction. A friggin F1 driver is lapping a bike like that? That's bullshit! Rocket | ||
| Knickers |
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=30722 Hayden Interview | ||
| Knickers |
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=30740 Pedrosa interview. | ||
| Mcgiver |
I believe Rossi has won more championships than anyone else. I think that makes him a great racer. The best ever?, only if you base it on championship wins. But he hasen't won a championship since 05. I think he is getting over the hill as a champion, but time will tell. Brian | ||
| Jimidan |
The ultimate test of a great rider is STILL to win the championship. It combines all of the aspects necessary over time to be considered the best. You can dance around that to any music that you want, but it IS the test. All else is just arm-chair racing and speculation. | ||
| Rocketman |
These 'Rossi over the hill' comments I have to say must be from those who don't follow MotoGP closely enough. I dunno. Maybe it's an American thing. Are you people really in touch with MotoGP? Do you watch the racing? You don't have to be a championship winner to be a great. Point of fact, and one that stands out head and shoulders above any other is the very very great Stirling Moss. Often referred to as "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship". A racing driver that often beat Fangio, Hawthorn, Collins, Behra, Brooks, etc etc etc. Reading and participating in this thread is great fun, but there are some way off base assumptions and strange opinions within it. I have to say, we are gifted to have the input of someone who can bring his expertise and hands on knowledge to this thread. I read, understand and agree with most everything he says here. Thank you Matt. Keep up the great work! Our American cousins need your help, that's for sure Rocket | ||
| Bads1 |
Sean get over the BS. I follow it but your American BS comments I don't need. Everyone has an opinion whether I believe it or you do. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Yeah Sean. You're right. Only the European's know anything about racing. And you. How much organized racing have you done to be the hands on expert here? Do us all a favor and get over yourself. Oh,, and welcome back. Dana. Are you going to be at the bar tomorrow for the game? | ||
| Bads1 |
Rocco,Yeah I'll be there as well Andrea. You coming??? Haven't seen any friends in some time. Work has been hard on me. Always is this time of year. | ||
| Rocketman |
My point was, it is only Americans, not all of them, in this thread that think Rossi is 'over the hill'. That's the most BS I ever read. I'd like to make one correction though. I'd forgot a famous Moss story until a quick recap from Wikipedia. Moss's first Formula One win was in 1955 at his home race, the British Grand Prix at Aintree, driving the superb Mercedes-Benz W196 Monoposto for a convincing German 1-2-3-4 win, with Karl Kling and Piero Taruffi in the international driver line-up. It was the only race where he finished in front of Juan Manuel Fangio, his teammate, friend, mentor and arch rival at Mercedes. It is sometimes debated whether Fangio, one of the all-time great gentlemen of sport, yielded the lead at the last corner to let Moss win in front of his home crowd. Moss himself asked Fangio repeatedly, "Did you let me win?" and Fangio always replied, "No. You were just better than me that day". Yes I am a self proclaimed expert at many things. I make no apology for others poor taste or bad judgement, or lack of knowledge or common sense Rocket skulking back to keeping his head down! | ||
| Bads1 |
Your exact words where Maybe it's an American thing. Expert???? No your just another good fan of GP that keep's up with sport by staying in the loop like myself. |
