| Author | Message | ||
     Firemanjim |
Boy you can sure tell when it is winter around here. You all need to take a few deep breaths and count to ten. Darn, Rocket, just when you start to be a nice sort again you toss it all back in the toilet.Cannot figure why you find it necessary to be so antagonistic. Anonymous, we have been over this before---if you indeed represent BMC you need to rein it in and come across without the snide, sarcastic, and frankly rude tone/comments. I don't care what sort of insults are tossed your way,it demeans you and BMC to react in this manner. I don't know about you all, but I come here for the information,camaradrie,and the ability to stay in touch with a whole bunch of friends I have made as a result of these motorcycles. It pains me to see the insults and such tossed about here. That is not what this board is supposed to be about. So go ride your bike,if you can't ride go work on it. And maybe the moderators need to take part in threads like this before the degenerate to this level---Blake!!! | ||
| Rocketman |
Hey Jim hold up there just a minute. As a Buell owner and still somewhat enthusiastic person about the brand I have just as much reason to say I wasn't interested in the XBRR project nearly half as much as I would have been if Buell had built 50 street hot rods. I see no reason why I should not be allowed to question such sweeping statements as Buell have become masters at over the years when these same statements are more about selling motorcycles than engineering truths. Sorry but I've never been a huge fan of the XB line and I have never believed there's anything special about its geometry that is secretive to any other bikes geometry, making it handle the way it does (which is by all accounts great). Great as it may well be I get sick of hearing Buell are so f*cking brilliant because they've got this secret going on that only the guru knows about. Do me a favour I say. Credit me with some engineering intelligence please. As for insults, I'm not seeing any from me. Criticism maybe, but that's a different ball game, and should help raise whatever bar Buell might take on board if they were ever to listen to fan based opinion. Thanks for your support too Jim. I hadn't considered I was anything but a nice sort - ever. Outspoken, truthful, loud at times, and I'll give you antagonistic (sometimes antagonistic works) and always up for a good discussion on motorcycles, which is something you've not been up for on the BadWeB for years. End of the day Jim you should remember we are all friends here which is something I try hard to maintain, even with the Brucelees of the BadWeB. No offense Bruce. Rocket | ||
| Davegess |
"1) Easily, it's been done." Sure has, I have pictures of one such bike (not a modified Vrod either). I could post them but then I would have to wipe out all you hard drives to hide the evidence. Plenty fast too, ask the State Trooper with the radar gun. Rocket, you are correct a GSXR engine would not fit in an XB chassis BUT a chassis using the principles of the XB could house an engine putting out well over 150 hp but only if the makers of such an engine could figure out HOW the chassis works. Not necessarily a transverse inline 4 mind you. And how about the brake system, no comments on how inadequete they are? Must agree they are pretty special. What is the bike? A Harris, or Spondon? | ||
| Anonymous |
Sorry, guys, I am so sick of Rocket's coments degrading Buell engineering it's hard to describe. The guy is an ignorant jerk with a small following of Buell haters here. There's no smoke and mirrors, the f'in XB chassis works superbly because we busted our ass on it. Jim, Rocket's comments are meant to inflame, and I apologize for being inflamed. Sorry to be human. If you want corporate pablum, there's plenty of places to get it. This is one place where it seemed committed folks would like to hear it the way it is from folks who know. TYhe chassis works for many reason's but not because of Rocket's "engineering explanation". To quote him again: "Actually it's a LOT less. It's the lack of cylinders and their associated components. It's the lack of cooling system requirements including radiator. It's the lack of anywhere between 125 to 175 crankshaft horsepower. That's why the goofy LITTLE XB chassis works. It's also the reason no one's figured out how it works, because it's useless to anyone else other than Buell because only a pushrod V twin would suit the XB chassis. Any good engineer could work that out Dave. The great thing about the XB for Buell is that no one would ever need, never mind want to copy its chassis quirks as they suit no other motorcycle company." No more posts, but I have no problem going out with saying Rocket has no knowledge as an engineer, has no value in engineering discussions, and has certainly not brought "good discussion on motorcycles" to this site. Badweb would unquestionably be a better place without him. But give him five stars and enjoy away! | ||
| Rocketman |
Dave, if it is no secret Buell built one such bike, why does Buell (and Harley for that matter) insist on this ridiculous secretive policy that allows no one in the know to speak of such things and no pictures ever be released? Sorry but I just don't get it, but it makes me dislike the practices of the company immensely. Every company I can think of has taken great pride in releasing many of their experiments or prototypes to the world. Why must Buell be any different? Is it because they have no prototypes or experiments I wonder? Then we get back to the XB chassis. Sorry but I refuse to believe that simple mathematics and 100 year old engineering practices applied to conventional laid out two wheeled motorcycle geometry hides some wizard hitherto unheard of principles within an XB chassis. Simplified..... There is a steering head that pivots. It is placed at a certain height from the ground. It is set at an angle. The front wheel spindle is placed at a position in front of the steering head and at a certain height from the ground. The way the spindle is positioned upon the front suspension determines certain steering principles. The rear swing arm is pivoted around a point rearward of the engine, and carries at one end the rear wheel spindle. Between both wheel spindles there is a set distance and somewhere between, the pivot point for the rear suspension. Plot these points on a piece of paper, then add the positions of the engine and all cycle parts and bodywork and you have a fairly conventional two wheeled machine. Since the age of the motorised bicycle every package under the sun has been tried and tested until we get to where we are today. Honda Aspencades to Buell XB's to Vincent Black Shadows to Yamaha R1's. It's all been done before. What is different from conventional are Malcolm Newell's Quasar or Royce Creasey's FF or Bimota's Tesi or Hondas Elf racer or Yamaha's GTS (slightly). The XB for all its innovation does nothing different with its geometry than any other conventional design. Sure it has a short wheelbase and a steep head angle and its weight distribution works within the chassis, but that is simply getting the maths right by balancing the package. Clever at how Buell squeezed it all together it may well be BUT IT CERTAINLY ISN'T ANYTHING NEW. Here's an example of genius at work. My genius. Ever considered why a 'pop up' toaster pops up and not sideways? I'm in the process of designing a 'pop out' toaster so's I can melt my cheese on my toast. Am I too, like Mr Buell, a genius for laying a 'pop up' toaster on its side thus inventing the worlds first 'pop out' cheese toaster, something that no other manufacturer has ever done? Bet Erik wished he'd have thought of that one eh. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Anonymous you say this is one place where it seemed committed folks would like to hear it the way it is from folks who know. I assume you are talking about yourself and others in a similar position so perhaps you could explain why you and your learned colleagues never seem to do so until people like me push you into a corner? You're a big baby and f*ck your little rallying cry to Blake. If you can't take the heat f*ck off and build Toyotas. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I just had a thought anonymous. If I'm as dumb an engineer as you say I am, why not tell the committed folks who would like to hear it the way it is, exactly what you busted your arse on with the XB chassis? I mean if it's anything as Dave described it I'll auction my Buell on eBay and toss you the proceeds for your forlorn race effort. After all, no one is going to copy the 'secret' so what have you to lose? Care to put your engineering secrets up against my Buell? Rocket | ||
| Firemanjim |
Yes Rockets comments are meant to inflame, and I can certainly see where this would grate---BUT, when you post as anon you take on the perception that you are representing BMC. And that means you don't get to toss the same barbs we do. It would be like me insulting a citizen while I was in uniform. Since I have that badge identifiying me,anything I do reflects back on my employer. I recently was told I was a effing azzhole, I thanked the lady with a smile. I am afraid you get to do the same. So show how wrong he is with facts not emotional insults--or better yet,don't take the bait.We are all certainly aware of the trolls we get here,don't feed em and they go away. And we certainly don't want you to not post,that would be depriving the board of valuable insight and information. | ||
| Crusty |
Am I too, like Mr Buell, a genius for laying a 'pop up' toaster on its side thus inventing the worlds first 'pop out' cheese toaster  No. | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Could an IL4 motor sit between the frame spars of an XB even? Nobody cares. (Message edited by steveshakeshaft on December 31, 2006) | ||
| Rocketman |
Jim, again, my comments were never meant to inflame. Read the thread from the top. Note how it twists and turns through different subjects. Then tell me where my comments were as you say? In fact my very first post in this thread I removed as it did seem offensive when I read it back. Since then I have offered up my thoughts on the XBRR race effort, mainly in criticism of HD. I have on several occasions put in a number of light hearted comments, and even a humorous pic. Ok the Bugatti comment was maybe a bit harsh. Later anonymous had a pop at me for my comments about HD finances, and yes insults were thrown at me. I raised another comment about the rich Jewish fellas that sit on the board at HD, suggesting they should put their hands in their pocket, but the religious angle was seen in poor taste. I guess the British humour / sarcasm was lost in translation so I backed down (at the request of admin) and prevented a holy war. I thought my joke about the twin horse chariot racing was funny though. Mind you bad comedians they say laugh at their own jokes. Moving on slightly, some people were bringing false info to the board about Ducati (again). Being a little bit enthusiastic about Ducati, just like you are about Buells Jim, I posted some stuff the way I see it. This got a Bus driver upset it seems, and not for the first time in this thread, personal insults were thrown at me. As this discussion raged an apology was given but I was the one who was singled out, but I understand how that works. There was also a suggestion my comments were insulting to Dave, which they were not meant to be, and I returned an apology. At the same time I explained that my previous comments in this thread were not me taking a pop at Buell. I also sent festive wishes. Then another twist occurred when PdP was called out as a Buell naysayer, something which I didn't see in this thread. I suggested at that time that Buell might have seen more success on the whole if they would have produced 50 street hot rods rather than the somewhat controversial 50 XBRR's and their race program. That topic got us to the XB chassis and the current state of affairs. In that discussion we are told again that the XB has some hidden magic within its design, and for the first time in four years I have raised my objections to those claims as I simply don't believe that to be the case. Now I am insulted by anonymous. Blake says I'm ignorant, and you say my comments are to inflame and I'm trolling. Tell you what Jim. Without my comments in this thread we'd all be doing what you do. Using the board as a source of information ONLY. At least my participation here makes those Buell representatives sit up and answer some of the question that Buell enthusiasts want answering. Now that can't be a bad thing for a company that prides itself in company secrets. Misleads their fans about its race efforts. Bull shits about their engineering prowess to attract customers. At least from me Jim I will always tell the truth, whether you or Buell or anyone else doesn't want to hear it. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Crusty, my 'pop out' toaster has been selected for a Euro Design Award. I'm currently working on a device that makes skateboards spark as they move. This one's top secret but has potential to sell in its millions. All genius stuff! Steve, I believe on behalf of other motorcycle manufacturers, that was my point. Rocket | ||
| Crusty |
Rocket, we've had toaster ovens here in the States for years. I don't consider designing a variant to be "genius stuff". However, if you want to consider yourself to be superior, feel free to do so. Um, have you been playing with your medication lately? | ||
| Court |
No . . . it does not. | ||
| Rocketman |
Crusty, a 'pop up' toaster serves two main advantages over a toaster oven. Its speed and efficiency as a toaster, and its size and portability. A toaster oven does not toast bread in the same way as placing bread close to an electrical element or gas flame. Consequently the texture and taste are not the same. It is not nearly as 'instant' at making toast either. Now if you want to talk about cheese on toast, done in a toaster oven it is more baked than grilled and that's a big difference. See any 'pop outs' in this pic Crust?  Rocket | ||
| Court |
Is it just me or is "Crusty" a tough name to come to a toaster argument with?  | ||
| Crusty |
 | ||
| Rocketman |
No . . . it does not. Oh here we go again............... Well guess what, I beg to differ. Here's some proof from your anonymous friend. here are the answers.jack*** 1) Easily, it's been done. I believe that comment was directly in reference to a V rod type engine placed in an XB chassis. If my suspicions are correct that's the first time in four years, despite thousands of posts debating the possibility of such a machine in existence, there's been any hint of such (unless I missed otherwise along the way). I'd call that 'making those Buell representatives sit up and answer some of the question that Buell enthusiasts want answering', even if you don't. Now have you anything constructive to add to this thread, or are you just gonna nitpick at my posts too? Rocket | ||
| Elvis |
I've seen anonymous posts on here that have said either very directly (or at least strongly implied) that a mule was made with a V-Rod engine and that mule proved that the V-Rod Engine was too big and heavy for a bike with sporting aspirations. Other anonymous posts have implied that the next Buell engine would be smaller, lighter, more compact and more powerful than the V-Rod engine. I hope I haven't misread those posts, because that sounds like what I'm looking for. I don't care if it's air cooled, water cooled, urine cooled, two-cylinder, four cylinder, 3 cylinder etc. as long as it has those characteristcs. Based on existing technology, KTM, Ducati and Aprilia all have engines that are close to what I'd like to see. All those engines happen to be water-cooled V-twins, but I'm open to just about any configuration as long as it's Small, light, compact and powerful. I think we'll see something very interesting in the coming years, but I'm being patient, At 10,000 bikes a year, it takes a long time to cover set-up and tooling costs, so it may be a few more years before we see a new engine. BUT a new engine is such an obvious next step, that I think it's foolish to not think that someone somewhere is currently working on one. (Message edited by elvis on December 31, 2006) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Rocket, I have to say that the XB chassis is really good and I strongly believe it might be best the bike industry has seen. Any fast rider with experience agrees with that. Why ? It is because it gives so much feedback from the front end to the handlebars. I recently had a good go with a Triumph 675 and the feedback at the handlebars was not even close to my XB. And the 675 is supposed to be the best handling bike at the moment. Only Ducati's superbikes come close to the feedback I get from my XB. But they are very heavy and have a top heavy feel compared to the XB. If you do not like the a XB frame Buell DO NOT buy it. It does not mean it is not good. Every bike manufacturer should have a different approach to building a motorcycle. Ducati likes trellis frames, the Japs aluminium. If everything was the same it would be back to late 70's and 80's with the Universal Jap bikes, remember? Everything looked and was the same. That was shit for bikes. Why you insist on having a liquid cooled IL4 engine to the XB ? I strongly bealive (Ducati also)that IL4 are not suited to motorbikes. They produce too much power at the wrong rpm range. Look at motogp. Even IL4 teams like Kawa and Yama maker their engines perform like V-2. For another reason is rear wheel traction. IL4 engines spin A LOT, compared to V-2 with the same amount of power. And this is a FACT The KTM V-2 990cc engine ( I am sure you have seen it)is 20kg lighter that the XB9 engine. It is also much more compact. It is much more powerful that the Ducati's 999, trust me. So a similar engine to the KTM's can be placed easily to the XB frame. It will also free some space for a radiator. Also it has no vibration and the chassis will have an easier task to perform. The swing arm can also be mounted to the chassis and so the nasty vibes(like the current Harley engine) of the engine will not reach the rear tire allowing for more traction. Also the CG will be lowered. I agree, the Harley motor gives problems to the XB. But at the same time I enjoy my Harley motor because of its character. I think an XB with the KTM V-2 would be the best superbike at the moment. It would definately be the lighter!! I am sure at Buell they have their engineering sorted, and know a lot more than us. It would be wrong to believe they do not know what they are doing. Give them some time to impress us, with a new water cooled bike that has the XB heritage with a modern V-2 (or something different)engine. Then they can go racing at the top level, like WSBK. If not, all of us that buy sportbikes based on handling and performance, when we look for our next bike will buy a bike from another manufacturer. Simple as that !! HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!! | ||
| Crusty |
Geez, Rocket; I didn't know you invented all those different toasters! And here I thought you were just a SAAB mechanic. I guess that with all that expertise, along with your self proclaimed ability to beat Valentino Rossi on your favorite stretch of road, I can understand why you consider yourself to be a genius of Erik Buell's caliber. Didn't David Allen Coe do a song about you? "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble When you're perfect in every way..." | ||
| Ducxl |
Great...more Antagonism  | ||
| Blake |
Antagonism sucks. I guess I need to reiterate the rules of the board here. If you are not enthusiastic about Buell motorcycles but rather are antagonistic towards Buell motorcycles, you really shouldn't be participating in this discussion or anywhere on this forum. Sean, if you imagine that you are being funny or entertaining, you are not. Your posts come across as antagonistic and arrogant and yes to an actual engineering professional, quite ignorant, which would be perfectly okay except for the antagonism and arrogance part. How would you like some ignorant know-it-all jerk publicly criticizing your hard work and passion? What you think you know, you don't. What you don't know is near infinite. Humble is good. Arrogant antagonism sucks. | ||
| Blake |
Hey Jim!!! Steve Shakeshaft, Beautiful retort re the IL4 engine. Perfect in fact. You rock! Court, Ditto for your rebuttal re the "questions" comment and a hearty LOL for the most humorous "Crusty"/"toaster" observation. Laughing/humor sure is more enjoyable than angst. HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL! | ||
| Rocketman |
I'll deal with your comments first Blake, but before I do I just want to wish you all a hearty new year. Even the suckers who find it difficult to understand constructive criticism towards their home boy motorcycle company who love nothing more than to criticise all other manufacturers, especially Ducati, but can't take Rocket's apparently ignorant bad engineers criticisms in return. Blake, I don't for a moment imagine I'm being funny or entertaining, though I included those two fine qualities to this long running thread in the interest of adding levity and friendship. It's a pity the anonymous and the Buell die hards, and even you can't see that. Instead you have to turn my extremely wise comments into what you claim is antagonism, arrogance and ignorance. Well I don't think so. Read the thread again and let me know exactly when it was that the anonymous poster(s) lost THEIR cool (again). Better still, let me help you. It was right after the part where Dave said "With the chassis it is not so much the patents but knowledge. it seems that no one has figured out HOW the thing works. How do you use that chassis geometry and make a stable STREET bike? Some people have suggested center of gravity, it is a LOT more than that." Well I don't buy that bull shit, and as a BadWeB contributor first, and knowing that Buell representatives play here too, and secondly, me being a Buell owner and purchaser of their products, why should I not be entitled to raise my disbelief at some things that Buell claim are world beating unique designs when these claims are used as marketing strategies to lure me and others to Buell products? I'm especially more encouraged to raise these types of issues when BadWeB participants and Buell representatives themselves use these same claims I'm doubtful of when they refer to other programs Buell are involved in in an effort to show Buell as some superior company, yet they refuse to explain why or how these unique designs work or exist to serve the customer or potential customer better. How would I like some ignorant know-it-all jerk publicly criticizing my hard work and passion? I'd make sure I had the answers or at least be open enough to tell the truth if I were stupid or smart enough to place myself in the firing line. I certainly wouldn't go to a public forum where my products are openly up for review if there was another Rocket lurking around with some pressing questions if I feared exposure that would harm my reputation if I couldn't offer a valid explanation or refused to answer his questions. Yes I could accept that some things may well need to be secret, but then I wouldn't go boasting about them and using them as sweeteners to attract rewards of whatever nature if such secrets were so important to the protection of my designs. Nor would I suggest other people with similar interests as my own were intent on finding out my design secrets for their betterment unless I could show proof of that being the case. Just for a moment let's imagine your question is in reference to the so called secret design incorporated within the XB chassis and you were asking it of the anonymous guru engineer who knows the secret recipe. Would you believe there's a secret when the reply is There's no smoke and mirrors, the f'in XB chassis works superbly because we busted our ass on it.? I wouldn't. I'd say those involved struggled to find the geometry that worked because of the nature of the design, and when they found it they chose to call the solution a secret when in reality there's nothing other than finding the perfect balance using conventional engineering practises going on. It just took them a long time to work it out. Of course though, you believe there is some secret design going on, so why don't you just ask those that know what it is rather than questioning my engineering beliefs? At least I've got the kahunas to ask the questions or raise the issues knowing I'll have to face being called a fool myself by the likes of you and the other guru engineers on board. Yeah clearly I forgot my place. I'm just a lowly peasant garage owner turning spanners for a living. What could I possibly know? All the best mate  Vag, I never doubted the XB chassis for a moment. I just questioned there is nothing magic going on within its design. Nor did I say I didn't like it and nor did I say it wasn't good. And I'm certainly not wanting any IL4 engine placing in its chassis, never mind a GSXR. I was simply suggesting no other manufacturer would be interesting in finding out the XB's alleged secret design quirk as the chassis has no purpose to any other manufacturer. Especially manufacturers producing multi cylinder engines, which I meant as IL4's, as their mainstream product line. Crusty, I'm also the creator of fireworks that produce musical notes as they fly. So one day in the future when you see a firework display and it sings 'Rule Britannia' to you, just remember it was one of my genius inventions by the time the second flurry sings 'Up Yours'. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Have you ever ridden and XB to its limits? | ||
| Rocketman |
I've never ridden an XB Blake. They're not fast enough Rocket | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Blake you are too kind. All the best for the New Year, may 2007 be the best BadWeb year ever. Regarding "Engineering" guru's. There are strict professional (ethical) limits on what you can and cannot say publicly about other Engineers work. I'm afraid that as a PE you are bound by these ethics 24x7 and it may be part of the reason why (very often) some of the more radical suggestions made about Buell's Engineering go pretty well unchallenged. Personally, I've always been pretty impressed by Buell's Engineering. I'm not a great fan of the XB platform, but there is some very good Engineering in there. | ||
| Rocketman |
And to reiterate, Steve and everyone else, I never ever ever once said in this thread or any other come to it, anything to the contrary. What I said is clear, and yes I too am not a great fan of the XB platform, but there is some very good Engineering in there. Rocket | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Hi Rocket, it appears we sit in the same boat. All the best for the New Year. |
