| Author | Message | ||
     Xlcr |
I've been reading this thread from the beginning, and I must say I'm hugely disappointed at the end of Buell Racing. Because that's what it is. Call it what you like, but when the Buells fail to show at Daytona this year, the final opinion of uncounted thousands of sport bikers and race fans will be "See, I knew there was no possible way that obsolete piece of shit could ever race with REAL motorcycles". You can tell us what you like, and some of us may believe you, but that's what the rest of the world will believe. That said, I think this is part of something bigger. I believe that the Harley board has taken notice of the general decline of the economy, as telegraphed by the bursting of the real estate bubble, and are in a major cost-cutting mode. Has anyone else noticed that Rich King and G.T. Tonglet from the flat track and drag teams have been let go? Has anyone noticed those efforts will be running with a smaller budget next year? And how about future expansion plans? For some years now Harley has announced expanded production plans every year. This year so far I have heard nothing. I believe they are standing ready to cut production at a moment's notice. I believe they are expecting both the motorcycle market and the economy in general to take a serious downturn. I have believed that myself for some time, and am not surprised. Harley is very experienced at surviving downturns, and is very quick to react. The Japanese have only ever experienced one, the Great Slump of the early '80s, and they handled it very badly indeed. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rocket, Once again you are clueless as to who I am, much like some other things you talk about. You are the one who draws heat, and not just from me. Somehow I am supposed to get off my ass and take risks? How is that going to help Buell when H-D doesn't? How am I supposed to do this? I apologize for taking the comments personally, but I happen to believe in Buell, and have been on this forum long enough to get tired of the holier than thou attitudes that some members profess. So, it's not you I have a problem with, it's the attitude. Davegess posted some facts and he is lambasted as an idiot? I stand up for folks who tell the truth and don't just post opinions. H-D doesn't fund Buell racing, but pours money into NHRA racing a product with no relationship to what they sell, and now Trojan tells us about this deal in the UK that makes no sense to us. There sure does seem to be a gap there. I and other Buell owners can contribute $250 each, and maybe fund one team, although I am willing to bet Buell won't take the money so it would have to go to one dealer. Which one then? Too hard to choose. Pegram may be riding a Ducati, but it's not one guy from Ohio for Crissakes, it's the Ducati factory, guaranteed. Ducati dealers don't fund racing, the factory does, so every time you see a Buell dealer team, it is one heck of a commitment. I agree it's a damn shame that H-D doesn't fund Buell racing, but they don't. We've all read the threads on here about Buell about to be shut down by H-D, and complaints about product and about customer service. All of the above seem to be getting better, but I'm sure it costs Buell every profit cent to do that. At least one anonymous has posted that Buell is doing everything they can to balance what is necessary. I truly believe that if it were in any way possible without risking bankruptcy or closing of the business, Buell would be racing. They don't have the money, and H-D isn't providing it. If people want Buell to be racing, they'll have to wait or convince H-D. There sure as hell is little I can do about it, and probably any of us. If that leads to your frustration, then we are in exactly the same camp; I just choose to believe it's not Buell's fault. | ||
| Norcal_blast |
"They are no currently making Ducatis, or are making them at a significantly reduced number." That is not correct. Right now Ducati is building bikes as fast as they possibly can. Some production lines were closed in the fall because a dozen models were being discontinued and they needed to retool for the 1098, Hypermotard and Desmosedici. Italian attitudes being what they are there was a strike protesting the shutdown, after a few days everything resolved. Pre-sales on all the new bikes have been huge. | ||
| Rocketman |
Busman, please don't go making me your scapegoat in this thread. Speaking of this thread, I've said on a couple of occasions I wasn't in it to have a pop at Buell. As for Dave, he's a lovely lovely bloke and I would never dare to insult him by calling him an idiot. My comment about 'daftest' and 'laudanum' wasn't meant to be offensive, but if that's the way you or Dave took it then I sincerely apologise. As for Buell going racing, sure I'm disappointed, though not nearly as half as you are. As for Ducati going racing, the crux of my argument that appears to have rattled your cage, I'm not that clueless at all. Nor am I that clueless about Ducatis financial well being or their business model. That's because unlike HD or Buell, Ducati publish their company objectives and their finances too, for the world to see. With respect, perhaps if you'd have entered this thread sooner, even with nothing more than a passioned response, many here wouldn't be arguing the toss. That said, may I take this opportunity to wish you and yours a happy and merry Christmas and wish you well for the year ahead  Rocket | ||
| Jscott |
"Ducati spends a lot of money racing. Racing is about spending, while our production based street motorcycles are about earning. We spend in racing and as a result earn with our production equipment, the two are separate but require each other to exist." http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Dec/061222dom. htm | ||
| Jimidan |
Soup's response: I can't wait! Me neither, Soup, me neither. That is why my newest car is 14 years old and my van is 24...saving money for my next Duck, unless Buell surprises me. jimi | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Hey now!  After enjoying our conversations here last year about whether or not the XB-RR was doing well in its first year of AMA FX racing, I thought I'd come back to start a discussion of what would be a reasonable expectation of success for Buell's second season in FX. "It's only the first year, what do you expect?" was the most popular rallying cry last year, so I thought it would be appropriate to set out some second year goals by which the effort could be judged. I was thinking something along the lines of: at least one XB-RR on the grid for every AMA round, a certain percentage of them finishing, a certain percentage of top 10 finishes, etc. I figured we'd have some fun discussing the details, as in what percentage of top 10 finishes would be a realistic goal, etc. Lo and behold, I find that the top thread in the road racing section is titled "Buell's 2007 Formula Xtreme effort"! Great! It seems the topic already has legs. So I start reading, and I find that Buell isn't even going to have a second season of AMA FX racing?! Sweet Zombie Jesus but that was an amazingly fast crash and burn for a program which started with so much hype and bluster. Truly a stupendously sucktacular cut-n-run of epic proportion. So that's it then. One season dominated by DNF's and no-shows, and then it's off to go beat up on club racers with a $30,000 made-for-racing-only specialty bike. Bravo Buell, bravo. You've managed to make the VR1000 project look successful in comparison, and that is no easy task.     | ||
| Buellshyter |
Is Pioggia, Rocketman's brother? | ||
| Rocketman |
No, he and his biking buddies are the Italian saviour of Buell sales in Europe that Mr Buell felt so compelled to court he attended the Milan Show where he launched the TT to bait those wild Italian motorcycle fanatics. Obviously the Italian's are more interested in Buell racing, or lack of it, than having the wool pulled over their eyes with some sort of butch looking supermoto for their perusal. Maybe if Buell had launched the TT in Italian football team colours.................nah, on second thoughts. Rocket | ||
| Jimidan |
As sad as it may be, Ol' Pissin' on the Parado is pretty much expressing the view that most race fans will have of the XBRR's FX one season and out effort. It ain't gonna help sell any Buells for sure. And as one can clearly see, it just gave the true naysayers (unlike those like JScott and I, who were often accused of being naysayers) fuel for the fire. The moto press will have a field day with this one. I wonder just how much damage this fiasco will have on Buell sales? Will it be as bad as the tube frame recalls? Time will tell. jimidan | ||
| Bomber |
wow -- seems there's a dilusion for almost anynone that wants one -- anywho, A Happy Solstice to all -- days are getting longer now, and only a few more months til riding season arrives in the frozen (or, at least, slushy) Nort as a present for ROcket -- Ducati is clearly spending no money except that they've generated through the sales of their (truthfully) wonderful motorcycles -- we've all been wrong -- thanks for showing us the truth, the light and the way. have fun, ya'll! | ||
| Jimidan |
Bomber drops one, wow -- seems there's a dilusion for almost anynone that wants one -- And the delusion is? jimidan} | ||
| Bomber |
er, ehem, well, sheesh -- what appears to be one person's delusion (thanks for the editing, which I can ALWAYS use ;-} ) is another's truth, don't it? | ||
| Blake |
Parade boy, What have you ever accomplished that compares to starting a successful new motorcycle company? Since you feel so justified in waging derision upon those who actually do something of note, I'd like to know. My estimation is that you've done absolutely nothing of note and so have little to no idea of what is involved in actually accomplishing something significant. | ||
| Blake |
In short, those who deride the setbacks of others are usually miserable failures or do-nothings pathetically trying to comfort themselves. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Interesting scoop over on roadracerx.com
No Factory Support, based in NASCAR Country, with a possible reality TV show, wow, what a great marketing opportunity for a motorcycle company...... (Message edited by josé_quiñones on December 27, 2006) | ||
| Reepicheep |
It'd be nice to see somebody build a real motorcycle on TV for a change, and with a bit less soap opera. I am thinking more like Mythbusters and less like American Chopper. Take some time to diagram out the problems and the solutions and explain things. | ||
| Buell920 |
ya. But watching a dork like Jr. having a young man stomp on the batt to get it in the batt box is so much fun.  | ||
| Jimidan |
Buell920 sez: ya. But watching a dork like Jr. having a young man stomp on the batt to get it in the batt box is so much fun. It WAS kinda fun for the first 10 times they did it...but it is so tired now. These guys are not actors, and their characters are so one dimensional that it just isn't worth spending time watching it, even though they are producing nice semi-functional pieces of sculpture. I would much rather watch a show on teams building race bikes. Can you imagine how interesting it would be to see what goes into building a MotoGP bike...even if it was older technology. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Bomber drops another conundrum: "er, ehem, well, sheesh -- what appears to be one person's delusion (thanks for the editing, which I can ALWAYS use ;- ) is another's truth, don't it?} So what is the one person's delusion? And where was the editing? People want to know? jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake lashes out at Parado Boy: My estimation is that you've done absolutely nothing of note and so have little to no idea of what is involved in actually accomplishing something significant. and In short, those who deride the setbacks of others are usually miserable failures or do-nothings pathetically trying to comfort themselves. All that meat that Parado Boy laid on your plate and you go after the pudding...what is up with that? While Parado was busy pushing your buttons (obviously quite successfully), you let him off with nothing more than a personal attack. May I make a slight suggestion? Why not get into something substantive? It is all there in his post for the taking. jimidan} | ||
| Blake |
Been done ad-nausium. Consider the source. In short, those who deride the setbacks of others are usually miserable failures or do-nothings pathetically trying to comfort themselves. That is not a personal attack; it is a core truth. I have little tolerance for such miserable types. We certainly don't want them polluting this forum. Thoughtful criticism is always welcome here. | ||
| Aeholton |
This read like a personal attack: My estimation is that you've done absolutely nothing of note and so have little to no idea of what is involved in actually accomplishing something significant. Granted Parata was kinda rubbing our noses in Buell's race effort, but it is fairly accurate. Buell raced last year with some troubles...now they are not racing at all. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Jimidan wrote: All that meat that Parado Boy laid on your plate and you go after the pudding...what is up with that? Jimidan, Simple. It's a classic case of attacking the messenger when the message is distasteful but accurate. Nothing new there. Blake doesn't ask for the credentials of those who post derogatory comments about Honda or Ducati or the AMA. This isn't about requiring credentials to post derisive opinions -- it's about taking shots at someone who says things he doesn't like. And as you astutely noticed, he didn't even try to address the topic at hand: the fact that the XB-RR's AMA FX program fizzled out after a lot of hype and one less-than-successful season. There's just not enough gray there to allow obfuscation or even conflicting opinion. It's black and white. Blake wrote: What have you ever accomplished that compares to starting a successful new motorcycle company? Since you feel so justified in waging derision upon those who actually do something of note, I'd like to know. Blake, I'm not dissing Buell (the company) in general, or Eric Buell in particular, just the XB-RR project. I think the motorcycle industry needs small manufacturers to offer alternatives to huge production number cookie cutter bikes like Harleys and Hondas, and I think Buell is doing well in that niche. So whether or not I have accomplished anything like starting a successful motorcycle company is not at all relevant. That was just a total red herring on your part. Even if it was relevant, having me list my accomplishments or lack thereof on this forum isn't going to change your mind or anyone else's. Is there any answer I could possibly give which would make you all of a sudden accept what I am saying? I don't think so. I believe you're just looking for a sidebar topic to distract from the fact that all last season the shortcomings of the XB-RR FX program were brushed off as first season learning experiences and now there will be no second season where the lessons learned will be put to use. It turns out, given current knowledge and 20/20 hindsight, that 2006 was not a first step in a long build-up to success for the XB-RR FX program as was so often repeated here. We can see now that 2006 was the pinnacle of the XB-RR FX program. (Unless you believe that a 2007 spent club-racing will result in a 2008 AMA FX program with more success for the XB-RR than was had in 2006, I guess. Do you believe that? Or do you believe that 2006 will end up having been the pinnacle of the XB-RR's performance in AMA FX racing? I'd really like to hear the answer to that, so please don't leave me hanging.) As far as learning years go, I had one last year. I learned that BadWeatherBikers is populated with a lot of FairWeatherRaceFans. I first noticed it before the Daytona debut of the XB-RR, when a bunch of people posted that they would be going to Daytona for the first time and were only going because Buells were going to be racing. It seemed odd to me that fans would only go watch a race if "their" brand was running. But then it happened again and again throughout the season as the topic came up for every AMA round: "Are there going to be any XB-RR's there? Because if not I won't bother buying tickets and going to the races." I just can't wrap my head around that attitude. Maybe as a strong Buell partisan you can explain it to me, or maybe one of those who holds that attitude can. I just don't get it. I'm a motorcycle rider and racer and race fan and I simply love the sport. If (hypothetically speaking) I was a Kawasaki rider and Kawasaki decided to drop out of MotoGP, I can't imagine myself saying "Well I guess I won't waste the time & money going to Laguna this year since my brand won't be on the grid." If that's the kind of race fans Buell brings to the party, I think maybe everybody is better off with Buell not participating in AMA racing. | ||
| Buell920 |
ouch! that hurt ME. I never realy followed the fx race until I heard Buell was running the XBRR. I have followed the "Brand" for a long time so were it goes I go. if Buell were to race a boat next year I would watch or even go to watch. I enjoy watching Buell grow and accomplish things. | ||
| Jimidan |
Urinating on the Parade sez: I first noticed it before the Daytona debut of the XB-RR, when a bunch of people posted that they would be going to Daytona for the first time and were only going because Buells were going to be racing. It seemed odd to me that fans would only go watch a race if "their" brand was running. But then it happened again and again throughout the season as the topic came up for every AMA round: "Are there going to be any XB-RR's there? Because if not I won't bother buying tickets and going to the races." You are on to something there, Parado Boy, as I noticed that too...years ago. I have a theory about it, based on several years of participating on these Buell sites and going to BRAG rally's. It appears that the vast majority of folks who own Buells and visit Buell web sites are NOT road race fans at all. Never have been, never will be. I do not make these observations to cast derisions upon these folks, as I see it as just different strokes for different folks...kind of an alternate universe thang. Shucks, some are my friends and some are my family. But Buell IS a sport bike, is it not...so why the disconnect? It could be that they have too much Harley blood in them, as many of them started out on Harleys and then went to harder stuff (Buells). They could care less about road racing that is dominated by "funny sounding" foreign ("Jap") bikes. They identify more with Main Street than the International Speedway when they go to Bikeweek. Some seem to be flat track fans though...so maybe it has to do with turning left AND right that turns them off. Maybe it is the sound. Maybe it is their good ol' southern boy roots, steeped in drag racing and NASCAR tradition (there's that word again), and road racing is seen as something for Frenchies. I used to give post race results on another major Buell site and it was always received with a big Yawn. It was like I was the only one who ever went to these races who posted on that site. Actually, this site has a few of us who are road race crazy, but the percentage is pretty low for the number of folks who post overall. Notice that it is just a few of us who frequent these threads. I don't really understand why they are the way they are and I am the way I am. It can only be explained historically. Of course, I also own a Ducati, so maybe that explains a lot.  jimidan | ||
| Eboos |
It is through owning and riding a Buell that has exposed me to sport riding and road racing. A couple of years ago I never would have thought I would be interested in "crotch rockets", but my inability to afford a Harley has given me the chance to ride something and someway more exciting. I would like to see Buell be more competitive in FX and build a bike for SBK, and I think that would make the racing more interesting to see something other then an I4 out there. In the AMA, I would really like to see an American bike getting some podiums, I think that it is good for the sport, and good for Buell. This year, I followed MotoGP pretty closely, and not because of Nicky Hayden (I was actually rooting for Capirossi), but because it was the most exciting series this year and because the riders have become more familiar to me. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Perhaps there are a number of racing fans here that got bored with US racing? I know for darned sure that is the case for me. Sorry, but a parade of uncompetitive Japanese I-4's ain't the greatest show on earth. Having the sights and sounds of something different made racing more attractive, and hopefully that will continue with Ducati , BMW and Triumph in the mix. There are quite a few BWB folks who not only watch races, but compete. They just aren't all swoonie over watching the AMA level of competition. World Superbike is indeed worlds better, with a ferocious battle between all brands and riders. MotoGP is definitely exciting. We get the Yoshimura parade. No thanks. I'm a huge race fan, but I want to see something exciting happening. Hell the only thing that got everybody wound up in the world of Japanese AMA racing the last few years was the Michael Jordan bling team circulating at the back of the top ten. Whooppee doo. I've been engaged with and interested in racing for a long time, so I guess I'm jaded. And PdP, no you are not a race fan, you are a Buell hater, and your posts have made that very clear. Anyone who really was interested in racing would have been excited to see Buell bikes in the fray. So don't come here acting all condescending; I assure you there are more dedicated race fans here than you will ever be, and many riders much more capable. You are a poser, nothing more, PdP. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Imonabuss, I agree that AMA racing is pretty lame compared to WSBK and MotoGP, but it is the topic of this thread -- or did you not read the subject line? It is also the top level of roadracing in the USA -- I gotta say that a Buell board is a strange place for you to reveal your preference for European-based racing over the stuff at home (American stuff is pretty popular around here, if you hadn't noticed). As for me being just a Buell hater, you should hear my rant about the pathetic one-year-and-out that Honda pulled in AMA 600SS after introducing the 2003 CBR600RR with a bunch of hype and bluster about how it was going to be the R6 killer and bring 600 dominance back to Honda. Big talk, followed by getting their butts kicked, followed by running away to a different class. Sound familiar? I don't hate Buell -- I point and laugh when I see big talk turn into failure and then to quitting. Kawasaki's re-entry to the Superbike class this year is a counterpoint, in attitude and response. But what really puts the lie to your empty claims of being a race fan is your reference to indistinguishable I4's and the Yoshimura parade. Because race fans know racing is more about the men than the machines. It doesn't matter to a race fan that a Yamaha 600 looks and sounds a lot like a Suzuki 600 (although after watching for a while you find tons of differences and can hardly remember what it was like to not be able to tell them apart; the reason you can't tell them apart now is the same reason I can't tell various Buell models apart -- I haven't looked at them closely enough or long enough). It doesn't matter because the racers are individuals and the competition between them is paramount. Competition between manufacturers is of some interest, but it's nothing compared to the battle of men. After many seasons of following any series a fan gets to know the careers of the riders, watching them move from one brand to another or one class to another, cheering for or against individual racers for various personal reasons that build and change over years of competition. A perfect example was Buell's own FX class last year. While watching the XB-RR do whatever it was doing, you might have noticed that there were two identical blue Yamahas spending a lot of time at the front. From an "I only care about the Buells" point of view they were interchangeable. But Jason DiSalvo and Eric Bostrom couldn't be two more different people. I'm a big Eric Bostrom fan from back when he and his brother were racing the Harley 883 series. I just love his approach to racing and to life, and it has been a fascinating ride watching him go from highs at Kawasaki where he was riding "the little ZX that could" against Mladin's mighty 1000, through his win-or-suck time at Ducati, and then to Yamaha for the current campaign. In contrast, DiSalvo bugs the crap out of me. Spoiled little upstate New York rich kid who wears his baseball cap sideways and makes pretend gangsta hand signs. I love it when Eric beats him, and it hurts me when he beats Eric. And that's not even mentioning Josh Hayes, who ended up beating them both for the championship and is a great story unto himself. And that's only the FX class! There are so many more personalities and stories in Superbike, Supersport, and Superstock. The racing makes the racers interesting in the first place, but then the racers end up making the racing more interesting in the long run. (While the Honda RC166 and the MV Agusta 350cc 3-cyl are certainly key parts of motorcycle roadracing history, Mike Hailwood and Giacomo Agostini are motorcycle roadracing history. Get it?) I've seen a glimmer of this here on the BadWeb site. When Jeremy McWilliams signed with Buell only a few people here knew who he was, but people who started out only watching him because he was on a Buell found themselves being amazed with the man and his story. Now they're following him in his next project on the Ilmor. When he got hurt in that testing crash he got so many well-wishes from BadWed members that he responded to the board with his thanks for the support. That was awesome. But if he had spent last year on a 600cc Japanese I4 in AMA FX instead of riding the Buell, he would still be a faceless nameless "rice rocket jockey" to the myopic "race fans" around here (other than the few who already knew of him, of course). So here's a thought -- maybe the guys who aren't racing the same brand that's in your garage are interesting too. And since AMA racing is America's breeding ground for our future entrants to WSBK and MotoGP, it's where you get to know our guys before they go face the world. When I watched Nicky Hayden win the MotoGP World Championship it was the culmination of a story that I watched develop from the time he was a kid racing for Hypercycle Suzuki. But during his AMA years, as I watched him grow from fast kid who crashed too much to the guy who stole Mladin's crown and moved on to the world stage, you weren't watching because you were bored with the series. Because you couldn't be bothered to look closely enough to differentiate the bikes or riders. Can you even begin to understand how lame that is? And to top off your unintentionally revealing post, you say that the big story of AMA racing the last few years was the Jordan team. Cripes, man. The only explanation I can come up with for that is that you get your roadrace coverage from People Magazine. I'm done with you ignorant choads. Enjoy your pom-poms.  (Message edited by Pioggia_di_parata on December 28, 2006) (Message edited by Pioggia_di_parata on December 28, 2006) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
PdP, you say racing is about the racers. I say it is about the BIKES. It is 100% normal for racing fans to want to see the brand of the bike they own (Buell in our case), to win races. I have friends that are big KAWA fans. They only buy KAWA, and support KAWA's racing efford like crazy. Unless you own a bike, you are not interested in racing. You watch football. For me it is very normal for Americans, that their first sportbike is a Buell, to get interested in racing after they buy a Buell. Every SPORTBIKE OWNER starts to follow racing at some point, and something has to trigger it. If it takes owning a Buell for an American, so be it. There is nothing wrong in that. If they start to be interested in racing in their 40s-50s that is fine too. So what is this all about ? Racing is NOT like the movies and lifestyle. Advanced technological Machines are involved. You need a GOOD BIKE and a good rider to be competitive. You need a GREAT bike and a GREAT rider to win. And I think because the XBRR is not a good bike (because of the engine), Buell decided to withdraw from racing. It makes sence. Unless you are competitive, why race ? For me launching the XBRR in such a short period of time was a very good efford from the factory. Hiring Jeremy was also a good move. Take a look at MV Agusta. It took them almost 5 years from their first release of their superbike to enter a serious series like the World Superstock. And they did NOT have to completely modify the engine to be competitive (Unlike Buell). Buell on the other hand had an ancient air-cooled engine to start working with. They build a new engine with different intake arrangement in NO TIME and took the machine to the track. THAT WAS GREAT WORK. Lets give everybody involved, some credit. Then (this is my opinion) the factory realized that the motor cannot do the task and decided to withdraw. It makes sence. Why keep on trying with a engine that gives nothing more than problems, either in performance or reliability? For sure it does NOT satisfy the Buell fans. Lets give Buell a 2-3 years space, to see if they can actually come up with something competitive. PrD, If you take a look at Buell motorcycle company, the last 10 years, you can only be impressed. Give them 2 more years and they might impress the world even further. |
