| Author | Message | ||
     Cfboss |
I realize hindsight is 20/20 but I would just like to hear comments on the following: Wouldn't it make more sense for Buell to develop a water cooled v-twin? I've heard the age old arguments that the V-Rod motor is too heavy, but that motor was good at one time for the Harley superbike effort. Surely H-D/Buell has learned a thing or two in how to make a good water cooled motor. Even if the V-Rod motor isn't right, surely they could develop one by now. I mean what's the point in developing the XBRR engine when it serves no purpose in developing a future Buell? The efforts could have gone to developing a new water cooled motor that would have brought Buell into the new millenium. Don't get me wrong, I love the air cooled twin, but that's not what makes me love Buell. I didn't ride a sportster when I had a Harley and don't consider the Buell a hot rod Sportster. I bought it because it's an American sportbike. The only American sportbike in my opinion. I believe it even says that on the tank. I do think the Buell has to be and sound like a twin, but I don't need the potato-potato sound to love the Buell. We've all heard the Ducati thundering down the track. So what gives? I know Harley holds the purse strings, but couldn't Eric have made or make a good business case to share the development cost of a water cooled twin over the V-Rod and the Buell? How long do we have to wait for a world class competitive sportbike. I'm not looking for a GSXR or even Ducati beater. Just put it in the ballpark with Aprilla and Ducati. | ||
| Jscott |
 | ||
| Rocketman |
 Rocket | ||
| Jscott |
 Yummy | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Good questions. Asked 1 million times. Pretty much met with the same responses. There are people that see it like you do (myself included) and some that don't see the point. I have friends that are engineers at Buell and they aren't saying squat. And I don't blame them. I'd be the first in line to purchase a Buell with a water cooled engine. When? Only Buell and H-D knows. And they ain't talkin'! | ||
| Jscott |
According to Alan Cathart, Buell has been going to release an h2o motor for like the last 10 years.  One thing I'm starting to learn about Buell,is to have a believe it when you see it approach. Buell having a serious AMA racing effort: believe it when you see it. Buell going to release a water cooled world beater : believe it when you see it. Buell strapping lunch trays to the back of bike : believed it when I saw the "TT". I used to get all worked up every year in anticipation for the very bike you have described. Hasn't come yet, may or may not ever come. Hey wait isn't it Buell's anniversery this year... Oh boy I can't wait... | ||
| Blake |
"but that (VRod) motor was good at one time for the Harley superbike effort. " VR1000 was not the same engine. And... VR1000 engine did not perform so well. "I mean what's the point in developing the XBRR engine when it serves no purpose in developing a future Buell?" Where did you get the idea that the XBRR engine serves no purpose in developing a future Buell? Are you privy to secret insider info? I'd be very surprised if we don't eventually see some significant technology trickle-down into the street engine from what H-D and Buell are learning from the XBRR. "Just put it in the ballpark with Aprilla and Ducati." It is if you are talking about any of the 1000cc or less air-cooled Ducatis. If you desire a liquid-cooled engine in your sport bike, you have plenty from which to choose. Do you have any idea of how much it costs to develop a new high-performance engine for commercial use? Are you certain that Harley-Davidson and Buell are not already doing so? Would it really matter how the engine was cooled if it made 120 RWHP? The XBRR makes 150 RWHP. Frankly, I hate having a big mongo radiator on my motorcycle. Had one once. Bad, bad experience that, messy, painful, failure prone. Ugly too. This sport biker likes air-cooled.  | ||
| Blake |
"Buell having a serious AMA racing effort: believe it when you see it." JScott, Buell never ever once offered anyone the impression that they were about to mount a full time factory AMA FX racing effort; in fact from day one they said the exact opposite. Your incessant niggling on the issue is tiresome and frankly dishonest and horribly unfair to the folks at Buell racing, making them out to be some kind of ner do well's and failures. BULLSHIT! That's just my opinion, which I might add is infinitely better informed than your own. And that ain't saying much my friend. | ||
| Blake |
Same goes for a water-cooled engine. Never ever hinted at by Buell, and in fact flatly rejected on a number of ocassions. Welcome to reality. It ain't happening. | ||
| Whodom |
Never ever hinted at by Buell, and in fact flatly rejected on a number of ocassions. There was a question in the survey Buell sent out earlier this year (to everyone signed up at buell.com) asking how you felt about water-cooled motorcycle engines. While that doesn't necessarily mean they're working on one, it sure would seem to indicate they're thinking about it. | ||
| Jscott |
Blake, please halt your incessant niggling concerning my incessant niggling! | ||
| Jlnance |
Same goes for a water-cooled engine. Never ever hinted at by Buell, and in fact flatly rejected on a number of ocassions. Posted 7/17/00, from a phone interview 5/3/00 Erik Buell Speaks on the Blast.
| ||
| Reepicheep |
I would much rather see a blast derived XR650 beater then a water cooled Firebolt. I would also like to see the existing bikes and motors lightened significantly rather then a water cooled Firebolt. A water cooled Firebolt would be a nice thing though. Not because I want one, but it would be nice to stop the whining of my friends that do | ||
| Jscott |
Reep, I would love to see further development on a single as well. As a matter of fact I've been disappointed (it's my right to be disappointed daggumit! )that they've left the Blast largely untouched since it's inception. Now a water cooled fully faired FireBolt, now that would be truly awesome... Hey do I come off that whiney? | ||
| Brucelee |
No water for me please! I am on a complexity diet, ie I don't need any more in my life. | ||
| Jimidan |
"Buell having a serious AMA racing effort: believe it when you see it." Blake sez: JScott, Buell never ever once offered anyone the impression that they were about to mount a full time factory AMA FX racing effort; in fact from day one they said the exact opposite. Your incessant niggling on the issue is tiresome and frankly dishonest and horribly unfair to the folks at Buell racing, making them out to be some kind of ner do well's and failures. BULLSHIT! That's just my opinion, which I might add is infinitely better informed than your own. And that ain't saying much my friend. Blake, you need to get into a gym man...you complain of getting tired so much these days! I close my eyes and I get this mental image of you and Madeline Kahn onstage in the old West doing a vaudeville duet of her famous "I'm tired" number from Blazing Saddles...and they LOVE you!  Now, about your comment about Buell and a factory FX effort, as you know we debated this ad nauseam back last summer, and I even offered a series of statements issued in press releases and Fuell. I assume they are still in the archives so I will not bother to restate them here. These direct quotes supported our contention that even though nobody came right out and said, Buell "is about to mount a full time factory AMA FX racing effort", it sure was implied. It really just wasn't that much of a stretch to get that impression for some of us. But I acknowledge, that being in a parallel universe is somewhat of an advantage when looking objectively at an issue. However, in an apparent fit of zeal you set the bar much lower in your most recent castigation of poor Jscott, by making the perfectly indefensible statement that "Buell never ever once offered anyone the impression that they were about to mount a full time factory AMA FX racing effort;...". That is a pretty broad statement, and as you put it, ranks right in there with pure bovine caca. How can you say that after hearing all of that Buell hype that someone, including some of those in the media, didn't get the "impression" that Buell was doing just that? The truth is, you can't...not even if you have "exhausted" all avenues of reasoning. This is especially pertinent when you have lucid post explaining...no, arguing, that several posters DID get that impression. You just plain can't tell someone that they did not get an impression, sorry. You would have to be in someone's head to do it, and regardless of what you think of your own "infinitely better informed" opinion, I doubt if you are that good yet. If so, prove it to us. These wild assertions and personally demeaning statements just rile up those "one-star voters", which as we all have been told, are so depleting. Give the man some air, folks...he's pooped!  jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
There, I gave myself 1 star just to get the ball rolling...  jimidan | ||
| Jscott |
I just cancelled your one star out with a high-five my brotha! Hey I don't mind being the lightning rod for Blake, in reality I think it means he likes me  . When I reread some of my own post, I think "Now that's not how it sounded in my head", so perhaps I come across a like a "Consternation Instigator" (that's one of Blakes descriptions of me). I told him "How can I be something I can't even pronounce? It's all good. | ||
| Jimidan |
Ewe! I gotta nother image...ewe, ewe! Maybe you guys could go fishing together in the high country where they raise ewes...you won't need any bait. jimidee | ||
| Anonymous |
Cfboss, It's on record that Buell started the project for the Revolution motor that became the V-Rod, but that H-D's requirements for large dimensions, and other cruier niceties made the engine become H-D only. So the business case was made for one motor to be shared, but the technical differences killed it. And Blake, don't go on record saying that a water-cooled Buell will never happen; after all the first Buell model was water cooled, and the desire to build one is there based on the Revolution motor story. Now when? That's a good question! | ||
| Jscott |
"Now when? That's a good question!" 08 would be the perfect answer! | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Oh No! I marked the calendar showing Blake going on record. Then I can throw it back in his face!!   | ||
| Court |
Hey, I'm not sure exactly what impression Buell may have conveyed to the media and general public, but I'll confess to have been leading the pack of enthusiasts. I am as disappointed now as I was enthusiastic then. I remain enthusiastic and optimistic. I'm sure I'm not the only one who struggles to envision Henry Duga, Steve Anderson and Erik Buell walking away, admitting defeat. I've been through this same deal too many times with too many things in the world of Buell. My attitude is "just wait" . . these guys don't hold down easy. That's the way I see it. | ||
| Jscott |
Well said Court. I'll be anxiously waiting with you. Though I must admit I'm keeping my fingers crossed that something comes through for this year. I for one believe that racing in the AMA is very important to Buells future. | ||
| Elvis |
Well said Court. I think we sometimes lose track of what Buell actually says and what things become once we get hold of them and take off. And sometimes it seems we make it tough on Buell by being more critical if they try than we would be if they just hadn't given a damn. For example: Imagine they had never made the XBRR, never tried to help any of the dealer teams teams compete and never introduced the XB12STT. Most of the things people have complained about over the past year would have simply never existed . . . but would any of us be better off if Buell had made less of an effort? Maybe we'd be a little more blissfully ignorant, but I don't think we'd be any better off. | ||
| Jimidan |
I think the will is there...it is just a matter of money. jimidan | ||
| Blake |
JScott, Hey! If you don't stop making fun of me, I'm gonna tell. Jimi, "it sure was implied." Brother, before Daytona the question was asked directly here somewhere and some anonymous poster informed us all in no uncertain terms that there would be no full season factory FX effort, nor likely even a full season privateer/dealer FX effort in 2006. That's what I remember. I guess you missed it? Anony, Thanks for the advice. I'll adhere to it. JLance, Thanks for educating me on that. I stand corrected. | ||
| Jima4media |
07/07/07 would be a good intro date for the 2nd WCB. (Water Cooled Buell). Jim | ||
| Vonsliek |
what i wanna know: why has the britten design been left alone? surely its rip-off-abe?! its made prodigious power & was homemade & designed & still kicked ass .. if only he had the knd of programmable ecms we have these days. it was watercooled & the rad was under the rear subframe. infact - the buells of today owe a LOT - at least in chassis & aesthetics to the britton. | ||
| Rocketman |
infact - the buells of today owe a LOT - at least in chassis & aesthetics to the britton. Them's fighting words, they are, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when Mr Buell catches up with you Rocket |
