| Author | Message | ||
     Firstbuell |
Buell AMA F/X racing can ill-afford this loss McWilliams is a capable professional who'd probably be an asset to any MGP team [like Team Roberts, alongside KRJR] this from MotoLiam's thread on BARF: -------------------------------------------- "...And Ilmor? Looks like a team try-out is going on, as both Jeremy McWilliams and Andrew Pitt are riding the bike right now!...." ------------------------------------------- | ||
| Jscott |
"Buell AMA F/X racing can ill-afford this loss " Unfortunately, the loss probably stems from they're ability to "afford" him. Times http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Nov/tb/061101k .htm | ||
| Trojan |
Don't despair just yet. There is also Garry McCoy, Leon Haslam an Shane Byrne up for the same job. If it was my money it would go on Haslam/McCoy, but it ain't so who knows? Illien has stated that he wants small riders on the 800, and that the final choice of rider may come down to a choice by sponsor (which is where Andrew Pitt fits in I think) | ||
| Rocketman |
Please not Leon Haslam. I don't rate him compared to kids his age from other championships and nationalities. Haslam's our best because he's our only. Consequently he's been much hyped. When you look at his experience he's had the best of everything coming through the field yet he hasn't capitalised on that. Couldn't beat his team mate Lavillia when it came down to the wire between them in BSB 2005. This season Haslam threw away a commanding lead mid season from his team mate, instead allowing the hard charging Kiyonari to catch him and beat him for the championship at the last round of the season. Please, no one recruit Haslam into the Moto GP series because it won't be his talent, just his passport they're after. Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
For once I disagree Rocket  Leon is probably the best hope we have, and he is extremely talented,regardless of who his dad is (although that hasn't stopped a few other MotoGP riders get where they are). Anyone who saw his last lap charge at Croft this year would agree. He was extremely unlucky to have lost the BSB title this year because the first race at Brands was red flagged when he was catching Kiyonari for the lead. He is also extremely popular, as proved by him being voted MCN Man Of The Year, beating Rossi,Hayden and all the other 'stars'. Most importantly, he is attractive to sponsors, which is half the battle these days. He has more experience than pretty much any current British rider and is still only 23 years old. The only thing he has done wrong so far in his career was to accept the ride on the Shell Oils Honda 500 twin back in the old 2 stroke days. Since then he has matured a lot, and compared to other current British riders there is no competition, with the possible exception of Chaz Davies. (Please don't say Shakey bloody Byrne! He has had more chances than he deserved and has done nothing since winning BSB a few years ago. Lat season saw him struggle to get competitive on the GSXR1000 that really should have been a regular podium finisher in BSB). (Message edited by trojan on November 02, 2006) | ||
| Rocketman |
Well Matt, I've only seen him race once, at Cadwell 05 and he was on the money with Lavilla, and I saw Croft and the Brands red flag race both on TV and I'd agree. He was unlucky not to get the title. That's always the way in BSB. My thoughts on Haslam are comparing him to talent of similar age from other countries and they're in Moto GP on top rides. Pedrosa and Stoner come to mind. If Haslam is as good as you say, and you are well in the know Matt and wouldn't doubt your knowledge and experience for a minute, surely despite the sponsorship stuff and passport tickets aside, why isn't Haslam on a top ride in Moto GP? Is it because the Pedrosa's and Stoner's are that much better or us Brit's really are frowned upon for top rides? Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
I think that Haslam is in the same bracket as Pedrosa & Stoner without doubt. The problem really is one of nationality, and linked to that is the UK's seemingly ridiculous obsession with production class 4 stroke racing. This leaves young riders with no clear route to MotoGP and leaves them stuck in the relative blind alley of BSB and WSB. British 250 and 125 racing has been ignored for too long now by organisers and sponsors simply because there is no TV or media exposure in the UK for these classes. Hopefully the new ACU 250 championship for 2007 will address that (although I doubt it somehow ), and we'll see more youngsters moving through to the top levels. Bradley Smith is a good example of what should be happening, and he had to leave the UK and get into the Spanish 125 championship to get noticed. He has just won 'rookie of the year' in 125 GP, and top Honda rider in the championship, yet still isn't getting works bikes for next year and is probably going to lose his Repsol sponsorship as well. Luckily Alberto Puig has faith in him and will carry on supporting Bradley regardless. If he was Italian, Spanish, Japanese etc he would be on a factory bike now. | ||
| 12r |
IIRC Dorna are very keen to have a(ny) Brit on the grid in 2007, hence the inevitable second-rate ride for a less-than-stellar rider. | ||
| Trojan |
IIRC Dorna are very keen to have a(ny) Brit on the grid in 2007, hence the inevitable second-rate ride for a less-than-stellar rider. DORNA may be keen, but they aren't going to foot the bill unfortunately. This means that riders must get there on either ability or by paying for a ride. The order that most team managers and manufacturers seem to look for riders these days is: 1. Existing MotoGP riders 2. 250GP & 125GP 3. Retired GP riders 3. Japanese & Spanish 250/125 series 4. WSB & WSS 5. AMA Superbike 6. British Superbike 7. A N Other series As you can see, neither the US or UK seem to be near the top of the pecking order when it comes to MotoGP places. There is the occasional rider that doesn't fit the above selection criteria, but would the likes of Hopper have a ride without Red Bull or other outside finance? | ||
| Davegess |
"Unfortunately, the loss probably stems from they're ability to "afford" him. " Losing McWilliams to MotoGP will have far less to do with money than with the overall package. I strongly suspect that he would like to continue riding the best racing machines in the best racing series in the world. He will get paid well but I would think it would take a whole lot more money than Ilmor will pay to get him NOT to ride in MotoGP. Racing on the same track as Rossi and Hayden is probably more appealing than the AMA. I agree with you Brits, not that I see your guys ride, but the ability to bring money to the table is foremost for all these second tier teams. Follow that with the importance of the Italian, Spanish and Japanese markets to Dorna and you guys are hurting. | ||
| Trojan |
If the paddock rumour and gossip mill is to be believed, then McCoy is already signed for 2007 with Ilmor, leaving the other guys fighting for the second place in the team. Usually this would be filled by the rider who brings the biggest budget with him. It now appears that the only slot left for next year is the second slot at Ilmor, as Alex Hoffman has been confirmed as the second rider at D'Antin (which pretty much proves the above point of money before talent for the second berth). Leaves a lot of riders fighting for fewer and fewer seats, so we can expect to see a few established but bikeless 'stars' signing some strange contracts in the next few months  Hmmm, Neil Hodgson and Andrew Pitt riding for Hyosung in the Macau GP anyone? | ||
| Davegess |
"Hmmm, Neil Hodgson and Andrew Pitt riding for Hyosung in the Macau GP anyone?" Yeah, there are thing that Neal might eat if they are the only things on offer eh! Would love to hear the conversation between him and Foggy! | ||
| Rocketman |
Thanks Matt. I love reading your take on racing. It's so nice to have you holding up the voice of British racing on the BadWeB. Haslam as good as Stoner and Pedrosa? Wow. Let's get him on a top ride. That I need to see. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
I think that today's superbikes are a LOT closer to MotoGP machines than any 250GP machine. Aren't three (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki) of the top five factory teams contracting American riders, none of which followed the 250GP route, and didn't all four American riders finish in the top ten, and aren't two of them world champions? Didn't one young former superbiker just win the championship while another superbiker champion just won the final race of the season? If teams are looking for a name or nationality or 250GP star before talent, they are likely missing out on a lot more publicity than their famous names or support series familiars will ever get them. Looking for a "name" to market the team seems like putting the cart before the horse. So you are right, it's probably what they are doing. LOL!  Racing teams can be funny. | ||
| Trojan |
I'm not saying the 250 guys are necessarily better than the Superbike riders. The point I am making is that the selection of riders seems weighted in favour of those coming up through the GP system rather than from outside it. Those riders that do come from other series are the exception rather than the rule, and are partly due to manufacturers /sponsors chasing markets in the riders' home country as much as anything else. Team managers are looking for a 'known quantity' when it comes to rider selection, and they get to see the 250/125 guys every weekend and at every test session. These riders know the tracks and the GP infrastructure, are well known to the sponsors and often bring major sponsors with them when they move up. The 'English Speaking' motorcycle racing world shot itself in the foot a few years ago by taking the 'diesel' racing route and favouring Superbikes over two strokes. We all thought that GP's days were numbered and that before long we'd only have the Superbikes to think about. Unfortunately the rest of the biking world disagreed, and GP's have always been MUCH more popular on the continent than they are here or in the US. With the introduction of the 4 stroke MotoGP class the balance shifted back to the GP circus, leaving the UK,US, Canada and Australia with no traditional route open into the GP classes. This makes it much harder for young talent to get into GP's, and pretty much all of those that do get there are national/international/world champions in other series beforehand. European/Japanese riders tend to skip the 'minor' series and go straight into GP's at a much earlier age, so get noticed and picked up earlier. What we (UK/US etc) need to do is get 14-16 year olds straight into GP racing instead of wasting valuable years in domestic production racing classes. People like Josh Herrin, Bradley Smith and the young Canadian racer (whose name escapes me unfortunately) ought to be supported straight into the GP paddock (whether 125 or 250) by our respective national governing bodies. This will at least get them into the right place to get noticed quickly by those that matter. | ||
| Jimidan |
Rocketman sez: "The 'English Speaking' motorcycle racing world shot itself in the foot a few years ago by taking the 'diesel' racing route and favouring Superbikes over two strokes." jimi: I don't think it is nearly that esoteric, as the World is selecting 4 strokes over 2 strokes across the board (out board marine engines too), not just the English speaking world. The 2 stroke's propensity for noxious emissions is the rationale, but I suspect it has more to do with the superficial reason of the way these engines sound than anything else. A racing motorcycle needs to sound like what the fans think it is supposed to sound like. I grew up on 2 strokes and do not think they sound funny, but most of the younger fans do. Oddly, with the radical increase in rpms for 4 strokes these days, they are sounding more and more like their 2 stroke cousins. Let's face it, most fans believe that the best years of Superbike racing was when V-twin Ducatis, Hondas, Aprillias blended in a rich symphony on the track. I understand somewhat how much harder it is to ride a 250 fast than it is to ride a 600 four stroke fast, as I am familiar with the power bands of each. I think the riders themselves much prefer the power delivery characteristics of a 4 stroke engine over the abrupt 2 stroke. My prediction is that within a few years the 2 strokes days will be over in MotoGP as well, and probably will be replaced by a smaller displacement 4 stroke engine, if anything at all. F1 doesn't have a support class traveling around the world with it. The MotoGP race is popular enough to carry the fan base all by itself, so the attitude may be why bother. AMA observed that the GP250 race was little more than a time when the fans took a break rather than an exciting event. The dominance of Rich Oliver didn't help much, but it was more than that. The fans didn't like the sound of these mad little bees. Without the majors in the racing world participating in 250 or 125 GP racing, the factories will have little reason to continue to design and develop these bikes. That, plus the fact that there are no larger displacement 2 strokes allowed on the roads these days, does not make for a happy ending for these GP bikes. jimidan | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Didn't mean to disagree with you. I agree that the GP teams are being silly. I predict though that as time marches on more and more top MotoGP riders will have Superbike backgrounds. I really think that they have a huge advantage in knowing from the start how to ride a 200HP+ machine. It must be absolutely daunting jumping from a ~100HP 250 GP machine to a big MotoGP bike. Would be very interesting to see a comparison of contract values for the top ten racers in each of WSB, AMA SBK, BSB, and 250GP. Got any idea? The prize money is pretty much nil in AMA SBK. I don't understand that at all. I think a racing series that emphasizes performance with immediate tangible rewards will always provide better competition and better entertainment compaired to a salary/contract based racer compensation scenario. The big prize money in NASCAR for instance motivates not just the drivers, but the team and it also makes the whole competition more interesting to the fans too. It combines the allure of a big money game show with that of competitive racing. Why hasn't the AMA offered me a job running their road racing program?  (Message edited by Blake on November 03, 2006) | ||
| Rocketman |
Jimi, that was Matt you were quoting. I posses no real insight into the racing fraternity at all. Matt is a racer. A race team principle / owner and do-er. I am nothing more than a fan, follower and spectator with an over inflated opinion at times. Unlike myself, Matt's opinions I suspect are from years of experience from a hands on approach within the field of racing motorcycles and his opinions do seem to echo those spoken by many who are also professionals working within the arena of two wheeled motor sport. Two strokes you say? I love 'em and I know there's an older generation in the UK who still do too. Most us middle aged bikers over here cut our teeth on two strokes. Ah the noise and the smell................Castrol R anyone? Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Jimi, Please don't make the mistake of thinking that the paying fans have any influence on what gets raced. We just pay to watch what we are given unfortunately. Race classes are decided by organisers, and at higher levels (MotoGP/WSB)manufacturers have a huge say in what happens. The reason we now have 4 stroke GP's is nothing to do with the fans, but owes it's existence to one word....Honda. The big H has campaigned for years to get 4 strokes into the premier class, and it was them that pretty much wrote the rulebook for MotoGP in the first place. They even threatened to pull out of GP racing completely if they didn't get what they wanted. The reason fans in the UK and US turned away from the 250 class wasn't because it was boring (quite the reverse in fact) but because it was not promoted and supported by the organisers anywhere near as much as the Superbike class was/is. The organisers also realised that they can make a lot more money by running production class racing. Running a GP class 250 or any other 'pukka' race bike is expensive and needs lots of setting up etc. 600/1000 production racing opened the door to lots more racers to get out there and race on relatively unmodified competitive machinery without the need to be a GP mechanic. As every racert pays his entrance fee this was a good thing indeed for the organisers. Look at almost any club race organisation these days and they will have 4 or 5 classes just for 600's, then another 3 or 4 for 1000's. Each grid is full and each rider is paying around GBP120 (US$220) per meeting to do it. Club race organisers here in the UK don't even need spectators to make money, so if they get them it is a bonus. As for the 'career ladder', coming up from 250 has always been the established career path, and is the one still favoured by teams and manufacturers. You can liken it to American Football in a way. Players progress from High School to College teams and are selected from there to join the NFL teams. It is very difficult to break into the system from outside this format, and those that do tend to be exceptional. With the introduction of the 800 GP bikes I think that it plays more into the hands of 250 riders than the Superbike guys. Corner speeds are higher and cornering style will be completely different with these bikes than the Superbike riders are used to, and they will have to change far more than 250 riders do. Almost everyone that has ridden the new bikes syas that they are just like faster 250's to ride, and you can see just how quick the 250 riders are to adapt compared to the Superbike guys. I would love to see more (British ) riders move from Superbike to GP, but can't see it happening any time soon. In the meantime expect the 250 route to be the one that the teams use to scout for their new talent. Honda in particular groom new riders through the 125/250 classes and have a wealth of talent to choose from (in fact they have too many good riders and not enough top slots for them). With Hondas apparent lack of interest in the Superbike class I can't see that changing. | ||
| 12r |
In all fairness although Honda first proposed the 800 cc limit, it was unanimously accepted by all of the other manufacturers. The two strokes can also race until at least 2010. Although the 800s have taken the concept of 'mass centralisation' a step further, they are still 200+ bhp 148 kg four-strokes, which don't compare with 90+ bhp 100 kg two-stoke 250s and even less so with any Superbike. The 800s are the same size and weight as the 990s and will probably be almost as powerful by March 10 in Qatar. The gulf between the 250s and the MotoGP bikes is as big as it ever was but the 250 boys will still be the quickest to adapt. | ||
| Trojan |
Blake sez: I predict though that as time marches on more and more top MotoGP riders will have Superbike backgrounds. I really think that they have a huge advantage in knowing from the start how to ride a 200HP+ machine. Have you seen the latest press release from D'Antin Ducati? Theyhave just announced a long term support deal for Franco Morbidelli with the aim of eventually placing the Italian in MotoGP. Nothing unusual there you may think..until you realise that Morbidelli si just 11 years old!! Morbidelli won the 2005 regional minibike championship and was runner-up in the Junior B class of the Italian championship. This year he has taken his first steps in 125cc racing. "I'm very happy, until now, I've raced minibikes and it is great to have an opportunity like this," said Franco. "I've been practicing with the 125GP from this year, I will go on and I would really like to reach the world championship. Until now, everything has gone in the right way, and I hope they will believe in me for a long time. I will do my best to reach our aims."  This and other kids from schemes such as the Red Bull Rookie Acadamy are the future of MotoGP, not Superbike riders unfortunately. We (US/UK) really do need to get young talent into the GP system before they get embroiled in National superbikes etc, where money starts to make the move harder. | ||
| Davegess |
11 year olds signed to contracts? It sounds like hockey! | ||
| Jimidan |
Trojan sez: Jimi, Please don't make the mistake of thinking that the paying fans have any influence on what gets raced. We just pay to watch what we are given unfortunately. Race classes are decided by organisers, and at higher levels (MotoGP/WSB)manufacturers have a huge say in what happens. The reason we now have 4 stroke GP's is nothing to do with the fans, but owes it's existence to one word....Honda. The big H has campaigned for years to get 4 strokes into the premier class, and it was them that pretty much wrote the rulebook for MotoGP in the first place. They even threatened to pull out of GP racing completely if they didn't get what they wanted. The reason fans in the UK and US turned away from the 250 class wasn't because it was boring (quite the reverse in fact) but because it was not promoted and supported by the organisers anywhere near as much as the Superbike class was/is." jimi: I do not think it is a mistake to think that fans have a lot to do with what gets raced. We are the paying customers and they are providing the product...simple economics. The fans have demonstrated that they would rather see bikes race that are available as a replica at their local dealerships, so they can play out their fantasies...simple marketing strategy. It works and Honda is a master at it, but they don't hold a corner on the market when it comes to using it. The other manufacturers have it down as well...what wins on Sunday,... However, I went to AMA races all over the Eastern US during the time when GP bikes were raced. I can tell you that it was hard to miss the general malaise of the crowd when the first call for the GP races came over the loudspeakers. The stands and major viewing areas nearly emptied and the vendors areas and snack bars teamed with disinterested fans. The vendors loved the GP races. These GP races were run in the middle of the day too...prime time. The AMA officials had to notice this mass exodus and all of the letters from fans calling for the 600's classes, and act accordingly. I don't believe that this was because folks found the racing boring, but rather that they could not identify with these machines in their fantasy world of race replicas...and they sounded like mad bees. Do not underestimate the persnickety nature of the American race fan...we are the country of Bush and NASCAR! Although, I bring Rich Oliver up again as he was so dominant that there were few races where he was entered that was ever in question. To be fair, there was also a mass exodus of fans of a somewhat lesser degree when the ProThunder Race (the one with Buell and Ducatis) was run, but I believe that it had more to do with when it was run...like right after the Superbike race on Sunday, when everybody wanted to leave so that they could go home. jimidan | ||
| Hobanbrothers |
I never understood why they raced our class at the end of the day, not always, but most of the time. They still do it here at Road America, invite the sidecars to run at the end of the day after superbike? RA also put 250 at the end for a while, at least the last year or 2. Why would you not want you audience to stay for the entire show? It certainly would make the vendors that pay good money to be there happy. It just kind of sucks to see racers out there doing there best and putting their life on the line only to see spectators walking out on them. In my mind it is disrepectful for the AMA to set them up like that. | ||
| Jimidan |
And I wrote AMA a letter protesting the placement of ProThunder and received a response from its race coordinator. It has been a while, but as I recall, he said something about the importance of letting those folks go home that had long rides and needed to pack up and get on the road early. Planned obsolescence at its finest. ProThunder was doomed to death by schedule. jimidan | ||
| Firstbuell |
ouch !! this lifted from superbikeplanet.com: -------------------------------------------- MotoGP News: McWilliams Breaks Leg In Testing Crash Ulsterman To Face Surgery Thursday, November 30, 2006 News emanating from Jerez suggests that veteran Ulsterman Jeremy McWilliams has sustained a broken leg after a high-speed fall whilst testing the new Ilmor X3 MotoGP 800cc racer this afternoon. Details are sketchy at this point, but published reports indicate that McWilliams will undergo surgery as early as tonight to insert a rod in his leg to stabilise the area of the break. He also apparently has injuries to a shoulder and one of his hands. 'Jezza' has ridden all manner of bikes during his GP career both in the 250cc class and the premier class including rides for Yamaha, Honda, Aprilia and Team Roberts. He famously took pole at the 2002 Australian Grand Prix at Phillip Island with a stunning lap on the lightweight Proton KR3. McWilliams was looking to secure a full-time 2007 ride with Ilmor, a move that would have pleased those at both Dorna and the BBC who have a multi-year television contract in place to air MotoGP in the UK. More if we get it. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Update: Ilmor are pleased to report that following his unfortunate crash yesterday (Thursday 30th) test rider Jeremy McWilliams is already on the road to recovery. McWilliams suffered a fracture to his left femur and has a suspected fracture to his collarbone, however speaking from the hospital this morning he sounded upbeat and very positive. Commenting on the crash McWilliams said: “It was very fast and I took a bit of a tumble. The doctors here in Jerez have been great and they tell me that my leg fracture is really clean, it should take four to five weeks to heal – then I’ll be walking and able to take exercise again. I need to have an operation to have it pinned so I’ll be having that as soon as they have time to fit me in. Apparently I also have a broken collarbone but it doesn’t feel like it to me. Oh and I will lose a part of one of my fingers but as I keep telling people, I broke that one before and it wasn’t much use to me anyway!” McWilliams went out on turn 4 at the Jerez circuit early yesterday afternoon on the third and final day of the official test. Initial data reports from the X³ show nothing to suggest a mechanical error. Team Owner Mario Illien said: “First and foremost I’m pleased that it seems there will be no lasting damage to Jeremy, of course we want to get to the nature of the cause of the incident as soon as possible and I know the team are analysing data and footage from the crash now. Prior to yesterday afternoon, both our test riders McWilliams and Pitt had done a sterling job providing us with superb feedback on the bike allowing the team to adjust the bike’s set up and improve on the overall performance. With the exception of yesterday’s accident it has been a good test for us, we’re making progress. I would like to take this opportunity to wish Jeremy a very speedy recovery and I’m delighted, if a little shocked to hear him say he’s looking forward to getting back out on the X³!” |
