| Author | Message | ||
     Jscott |
Ducati makes it official... http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Aug/060822a.htm http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Aug/060822b.htm http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Aug/060822c.htm ...maybe a silver lining for Buell. Parts Unlimited may be looking to sponsor a team for next year. Ben Bostrom may be looking for jobs next year also. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Aug/e/n060820l.htm Aaron Yates may be looking for a ride also. (Message edited by JScott on August 22, 2006) | ||
| Anonymous |
Who cares, FX is going to be the exciting class next year! Ben did ride a Buell briefly in the Lightning series, so maybe it's time for him to come back?! | ||
| Jscott |
"Who cares..." I guess anyone who enjoys the premiere AMA class with the top level AMA racers would care. Count me in that category. "..., FX is going to be the exciting class next year!" I agree that it does have the makings of becoming the most exciting class, but that will greatly depend on which manufacturers actually turn out (Ducati, BMW, etc.) and which ones will be able to consistently show up and compete (Buell). Until then it will remain but minature SuperBikes. "Ben did ride a Buell briefly in the Lightning series, so maybe it's time for him to come back?!" While Ben will most certainly be looking for a job, McWilliams would be my first choice. After I secured McWilliams, I would be on the hunt for a young gun ala Danny Eslick or Blake Young. (Message edited by JScott on August 22, 2006) | ||
| Slaughter |
Hell anony, Ben, Eric, Jake, Shawn, Jeff, and Jody all hit it in the 883 series - AND for one of our sponsors - Bartels. I'll arrange a ride (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk) - we can find him a seat. I'd even let him race my bike - though he'd have to kick Dixon out. | ||
| Jimidan |
What JScott said. I go to AMA races to watch all of the races, not just FX. I own a Ducati too and have always enjoyed their hospitality tents at these races...which are second to none. Buell doesn't hold a corner on the market of having cool people who ride their bikes, although it is at the top. With BRAG dropping out of any sponsored rides this year, owning a Buell hasn't been quite as much fun as it used to be. Also, if Buell was more concerned with podiums than just being competitive with the privateers in FX, it WOULD be more interesting. So who cares...I think a lot of fans do. jd | ||
| M1combat |
I think Buell is concerned with podiums... They just need some development time to get there. I believe they will as long as nothing major happens to set them back... Do you Jimi? | ||
| Aeholton |
"Who cares..." Well, me. I enjoy hearing v-twin engine in amongst all the inline-4s. It gave me someone to cheer for. Neil Hodgson and Ben Bostrom are good guys. I was really hoping for favorable rule changes to allow Ducati to compete with a WSB spec bike. "..., FX is going to be the exciting class next year!" As far as I'm concerned it will be the only series worth watching next year, now. Hope to see some other twins (BMW, Ducati, MotoGuzzi...), as well as the Triumph 675 triple running too. | ||
| Jackbequick |
This weekend's AMA SuperBike, Formula Extreme, and SuperSport races at VIR all showed some really good racing. I'd turn out for that kind of racing if it was within a day's ride or drive. If those classes continue as they are now or improve, it has to be good for everyone involved. Deep in our hearts we all have riders and brands we'd love to see on the podium. Sometimes it is enough to just believe that it can happen and then sit back and enjoy the wait and the race. Ask any Red Sox or White Sox fan. :>  Jack | ||
| Blake |
Any race is a good race. Some are just better than others. GO AMA Formula Xtreme! GO Buell!! | ||
| Rocketsprink |
With Ducati out, I will not watch AMA Superbike races anymore. Not for a "protest", but because I'm sick of seeing all the Inline 4's. Doesn't mean I don't like them, just sick of most of the rules made to suit them specifically. Not to play Devil advocate, but I wonder why they allow Buell but not Ducati the luxury of what boiled down to Rule Bending, Please, don't jump down my throat for saying that. Let's face it, Ducati is a bigger draw to the races than Buell mostly because the class it raced in. Really bad move on the AMA's part. Really stupid. Ben and Neil were probably the most approachable Superbike riders. It's a shame. Bike sounded the best too. | ||
| Jimidan |
Rocketsprink sez: "Not to play Devil advocate, but I wonder why they allow Buell but not Ducati the luxury of what boiled down to Rule Bending," I do not believe that "Rule Bending" is the proper term here concerning the Buell XBRR. The American Motorcyclist Association wrote the rules specifically to allow the Buell to compete in FX, and why shouldn't it? They have also written the rules to allow many other bikes from a variety of manufacturers. In hindsight, with just a couple of races left in the season, the XBRR is very competitive with the other privateer bikes so the AMA is looking pretty smart. "Rule Bending" is the proper term for Ducati's situation, as it would allow them to use a different racing crank, which is prohibited now. Regarding the decision not to allow full-on World SBK spec 999's, you are right, it was very stupid not to allow this bike to compete. The IL4s have a mechanical advantage that required Ducati to spend far more on its bikes just to have any chance to finish on the podium...which it did like, once? Ducati's choice to lay out a year was a good one, and they may come back with a new bike with 1200 cc's for SBK and AMA. I wonder what AMA will do when (if) that happens? Ducati's choice to continue its most excellent hospitality tent at AMA races is also very smart. Buell could learn a few things about how to promote itself from the Ducati model here too. With Buell discontinuing its sponsored rally and ride activities, there really isn't much left to BRAG about. jimidan | ||
| Jscott |
Although it has been rumored that Neil will rejoin WSBK and that Ben Bostrom may sign with a team in SuperMoto next year. Another unknown in this whole situation is what will Terry Gregoricka's Austin based squad do next season? Will he field a team with his current bikes and with a new rider(s)with no real hope of being competetive, similar to the way he did prior to his Factory backing? Will he sit out? What will happen to his Parts Unlimited backing? If Yamaha rejoins SuperBike for 2007, they might possibly abandon FX similar to the way Honda did (yes I know Honda is giving much support to Erion). Should Austin Ducati try to retain Ben's services and field an all out FX team? I believe alot of the trick parts can be taken directly off the 999 and put on a 749 (bored to 850?). Might be a way to remain active in the AMA with the current squad and sponsorship while giving Ducati a legitimate chance at a series title. "...they may come back with a new bike with 1200 cc's for SBK and AMA. I wonder what AMA will do when (if) that happens?" This should be the next hot topic with the AMA rules committee. Either increase the Twins displacement or adopt FIM regulations. This (2008) would also be a good time for Harley or Buell to rejoin SuperBike with a 1200cc watercooled Twin or a 1000cc "Nova" VFour. If the rules get changed for 2008, Ducati will come back. MotoCzysz is also said to be considering a run at AMA SuperBike for 2008. | ||
| Jimidan |
I think Yammy Haul will get back into Superbike next year, as they already have riders who can be very competitive in that class, and a bike that they are campaigning this year in SBK. I suspect that they will run the Daytona 200 with the current spec FX bike, as Honda did this year, and then drop out for the rest of the season. Your thoughts about Austin Ducati are very interesting and that scenario would seem to make sense for them. I would like to see that happen...it would make FX even more diverse and interesting. jimidan | ||
| Rocketsprink |
UM, I think allowing Buell to melt the stock cases and recast them is "Bending the Rules" just a little. | ||
| Jlnance |
UM, I think allowing Buell to melt the stock cases and recast them is "Bending the Rules" just a little. I don't think Buell did this, but I certainly don't think it's "bending the rules" if they did. The rules allow for "unlimited modifications." | ||
| Jscott |
It's not "bending the rules", it's "melting the rules".  Seriously though, I've heard this whole "melting" thing batted around ever since the the introduction of the XBRR. Is their any truth to it? Does anyone have a link to something that clearly states that this is fact? | ||
| Blake |
What difference does it make? The "rules" allow for "unlimited" modifications - unlimited - as in no limits to what Buell could do to modify the engine. And... the AMA has officially declared the XBRR legal in FX. Period. Case closed. | ||
| Blake |
If necessary, Buell could have simply done some welding and machining to the existing cases to accomplish the same ends. The AMA let them cast new cases in order to help reduce cost which was then passed on to the folks who purchased the 50 XBRR Formula Xtreme approved racing machines. | ||
| Jscott |
"What difference does it make?" In my opinion it doesn't make any difference. The AMA deemed the XBRR legal and thats good enough for me. Now back to my original question: Does anyone have a link to something that clearly states that this is fact? | ||
| José_quińones |
A few things Recasting the cases? Read about it HERE Ducati won one Superbike race in 2004, four Superbike races with 2005 (three for E. Bos, one with Neil Hogdson) and none so far this year, but three podiums. Finally, I agree with Mr. Scott, Ducati could take a slice of the money there were spending on AMA Superbike (which was the most EXPENSIVE national championship for them to run in, even more than World Superbike) and put out a very competitive FX bike with a young, not so expensive, up and coming rider like Ryan Andrews (who raced a 749 in FX last year and was consistently in the top 10) and do very well and keep the Ducati fans interested while they sit in their hospitality tent, the best one at the races. Finally, I read in Cycle News that that phrase "unlimited modifications" might not be in the 2007 AMA rulebook for aircooled 2 valve twins. (Message edited by José_quińones on August 25, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
Thanks José! However recasting the cases sounds alot different to me than the literal melting of stock cases to form the XBRR case. "Finally, I read in Cycle News that that phrase "unlimited modifications" might not be in the 2007 AMA rulebook for aircooled 2 valve twins." Does this mean a production bike using XBRR cases would be in order? Sweet! In the interest of parity perhaps they should keep "unlimited modifications" a little while longer. (Message edited by JScott on August 25, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
JScott sez: "Does this mean a production bike using XBRR cases would be in order? Sweet! In the interest of parity perhaps they should keep "unlimited modifications" a little while longer." Yep, (WARNING: Wild exaggeration and mis-representation coming!!!  ) because we are still nearly 3 seconds behind the QUALIFYING times of the 7th place bike. OK, now give me a gun and I will go out back and shoot myself. Parity is an elusive thing. jd | ||
| Jscott |
"...Wild exaggeration ..." Please, I repeat, Please refrain from all exaggerations! | ||
| Blake |
 Sarcasm is so much better than wild exaggerations. Don't shoot yourself with any kind of lethal weapon Jimi, maybe just take a paintball to the inner thigh or underarm region.  Pretty sure that will teach you. If not we can escalate to taser. | ||
| Blake |
Then later... pepper spray. | ||
| Blake |
JScott, Where have you been; this is very old news, isn't it? The XBRR is legal per AMA Pro Racing. Not sure anyone can prove it to beyond what the media has reported. Try Cycle World and Road Racing World to start. Probably some links in one of the many XBRR threads that were sequestered... here.  If it weren't legal it seems like one of the teams finishing behind it would have protested. As far as I know, Erion Racing was the only team making any kind of serious noise wrt protesting the XBRR. | ||
| Blake |
After pepper spray we'll try the bean bag cannon. | ||
| Jscott |
Blake, I've never doubted it's legality. In fact I've celebrated it's inclusion from the beginning. My question was, has there been any official documentation specifically stating the melting of stock cases to form an XBRR case. Recasting - to me, means to create a new case. I'm wondering if this whole "melting" thing is just an internet rumor to further fuel the anti-Buell racing camps. | ||
| Davegess |
Well interesting comments from Bostroms crew chief at www.superbikeplanet.com If the Ducatis can't win and its not the bike, the rider or the crew chief then what is the problem? | ||
| Sloppy |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the wording in the AMA FX rulebook is: ANY air cooled twin is allowed unlimited engine modifications. This means that Ducati, BMW, MotoGuzzi could have done the exact same thing. The Japanese makers and Triumph likely also offer an air cooled twin in their line up so they too could have done the same. I don't understand why people think that the air cooled FX rules are only for Buells??? | ||
| M1combat |
I thought it was air-cooled pushrod twin? I'm probably wrong. | ||
| Sloppy |
Per AMA Rule Book: "C. Formula Xtreme®... The motorcycles in this class must have the following engine displacements: 450cc - 600cc 4-stroke multi cylinders 595cc - 750cc 4-stroke liquid-cooled twin cylinders 850cc - 1350cc 4-stroke air-cooled twin cylinders" There is NOTHING in the rule book that mentions valve actuation or number of valves. The people that are making a big deal out of the XBRR thing are NOT reading the rule book... they may not LIKE the rules, but thems are the rules. | ||
| Jscott |
Current rules may not mention specifics, but for 2007 the revised rules do mention valve actuation and number of valves. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=26717 • 550cc-600cc 4-stroke liquid-cooled 4-valve four cylinders • 650cc-675cc 4-stroke liquid-cooled 4-valve three cylinders • 650cc-850cc 4-stroke liquid-cooled 4-valve twin cylinders • 990cc-1100cc 4-stroke air/oil-cooled 2-valve desmo twin cylinders • 990cc-1200cc 4-stroke air/oil-cooled 4-valve pushrod twin cylinders • 900cc-1350cc 4-stroke air/oil-cooled 2-valve pushrod twin cylinders (Message edited by JScott on August 25, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
Cast: 3. To form (liquid metal, for example) into a particular shape by pouring into a mold. re·cast: 1. To mold again: recast a bell. I have never seen anything but "recast" in official written form that described the modification to the Buell engine cases. If you look at the definition of cast and recast, I guess you could infer that it involved melting down of the old case and pouring it into the mold of the new case, like the bell. But I know that didn't happen, as it only makes sense that they used virgin aluminum in the new casting. So, I vote for urban legend, facilitated by the nay-sayin' internet forum crowd who use wild exaggerations and mis-representations...after being tortured by paint ball guns to the inner thigh, tasers, then pepper spray and finally shot with a bean bag cannon. Like the tortured spy who twists the truth to get them to stop, they will say dang near anything.  jimidan | ||
| Jscott |
"So, I vote for urban legend..." I second that vote. Whoops I forgot I don't vote on BadWeb any more. Perhaps we should start a "Buell Myth Busters" show! | ||
| Blake |
Break out the fire ants and chiggers! | ||
| Jscott |
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Nov/061113s.ht m Hey it looks like Ducati is looking into my above suggestion from 8.24.06. Makes sense to me. |
