| Author | Message | ||
     Rubberdown |
From Motorcycle Daily I believe: A Simple Antenna Signals BMW's MotoGP Ambitions By Dirck J. Edge Spy shots of Jeremy McWilliams riding a prototype BMW roadracer have fueled speculation that BMW will enter MotoGP for several months. Now, crystal clear photos have emerged showing an FIM-spec transmitter antenna on the tail unit of a finished, beautifully painted BMW race bike piloted by McWilliams in Spain. BMW is ready! When will we see BMW on the MotoGP grid first? All signs point to it happening this year, and perhaps as early as BMW's home race in Germany on July 16. Don't expect race wins (or even podiums) right away. If it does race, BMW will use this year for development, and would hire a top rider or two for a serious effort in 2007. | ||
| Mutation_racer |
Sounds just like what buells doing with the XBRR. using this year for development.i'm still not sure why people are so fast to bash buell with what there doing | ||
| M1combat |
No (Four little red dots)... It's how you go racing. Just points to a certain level of ignorance is all  . | ||
| Hattori_hanzo |
Sounds just like what buells doing with the XBRR. using this year for development.i'm still not sure why people are so fast to bash buell with what there doing I guess the big difference is how the XBRR is being marketed to the non-Buelling public. I'm not Buell bashing, but the idea of the XBRR was to sell a complete FX bike (and many other classes) to a privateer that was competitive and reliable for a whole season. Frankly, it hasn't quite lived up to that expectation. Now, if there were 3 or 4 bikes Buell was testing this season to develop the XBRR for sale to privateers the next season, then we probably wouldn't have seen so many critics. As it is, the first 50 are getting bikes that aren't quite up to par and that's where the critics are ripping it apart. Buell supporters take it as teething pains and baby steps, bashers say it's piece of shit. That's just my opinion for what it's worth... | ||
| M1combat |
Well... 50 bikes haven't left the factory yet. Buell is using 3-4 bikes for testing purposes right now. As soon as they get the bugs worked out (and I think most are) they'll start delivery and the bikes will be just as or more reliable than the current XB but more powerful. You'll never have an IC engine that'll just last forever... They said "realiable for an entire season with regular maintenance". To a racer I think that means something a little different than what you might think. I think it means with regular inspections, head removal, refreshing stuff, adjusting everything to make sure it's all good etc... Oil changes every race at the least... ETC, ETC, ETC... I think the CF supplier issue probably worked out alright in the long run. It allowed extra "real world" testing to be done and it seems to have paid off so far. IMO they're right on track with what I've expected, but I don't know exactly what the internal expectations were at Buell. That said... I know they put Daytona race distances on the bikes prior to Daytona and didn't have trouble. That's racing . | ||
| Hattori_hanzo |
Well... 50 bikes haven't left the factory yet. Buell is using 3-4 bikes for testing purposes right now. I understand that, you understand that, and most Buell enthusiasts understand that too. What I'm getting at is the perception of someone outside that circle. You see it as a bike in development, they see it as an under whelming, overly hyped, marketing ploy. They see a press release of 50 bikes ready to be sold to privateers. Then they see the bikes break at Daytona and suddenly those 50 bikes aren't quite ready. They reach back to the VR1000 for comparisons. They are ready to pounce on EVERY mistake and mechanical issue the XBRR has. They said "realiable for an entire season with regular maintenance". To a racer I think that means something a little different than what you might think. No, I understand that it's not just gonna be oil changes and gasoline. The problems are the mechanical failures seen at Daytona and the McWilliams DNF at Infineon. To the public it looked incredibly bad. RA looked more promising until Crevier crashed, but still no top ten finish. Until all the XBRRs entered in a particular race can finish strong (say 3 bikes entered, 2 top tens) you are going to continue to see them criticized. Again, I'm not bashing, just seeing the ammunition that anyone can use to bash. | ||
| Jscott |
The ever shrinking MotoGP grid could definetly use BMW joining the series. McWilliams would be a good catch for them next season. | ||
| Jlnance |
Until all the XBRRs entered in a particular race can finish ... I don't see that ever happening. Lots of bikes DNF. It's the nature of racing. That said, it would be incredably good for the XBRRs to start finishing races. | ||
| M1combat |
You don't see every entered RR finishing "ever" happening? Ummm... OK. That's a pretty defeatist attitude... I could see if it was half the field, but... Anyway... I didn't mean to pick on you Brian and yeah... I see your point but they aren't just "Not Buell Fans"... They're also not race fans if they look at it that way. They don't understand. That's fine by me. The RR will be taking names soon enough IMO. All in good time. I don't think that Buell will be giving up on the effort any time soon. It's Erik's goal to win the Daytona at least once from what I can tell... | ||
| M1combat |
I'm not too sure that public opinion of the race effort matters much right now. Look at public opinion of Buells themselves... The other day I literally had to ask people to move out of my way so I could leave whiskey row... | ||
| Hattori_hanzo |
Didn't think you were pickin' on me Don. I was just givin' you the other side's view as I've witnessed it on other non-Buell motorcycle boards. I'm very optimistic that they'll get it together and have a strong showing soon enough. Then we can hear all the bitchin' because of the "unfair" displacement advantage!  | ||
| M1combat |
Can't wait  . | ||
| Imonabuss |
Be fair, at least here. There have been quite a few XBRR finishes, guys, even two in FX. I don't think they've ever DNF'd a race other than FX. They've won a number of ASRA races, etc., even endurance races. Yes, a top ten finish in FX would be cool, and hopefully it will come soon. | ||
| Jlnance |
You don't see every entered RR finishing "ever" happening? Sorry M1, thats not what I intended to say. I read the original statement as saying none of the XBRRs could ever DNF. | ||
| Diablobrian |
They are proceeding forward in increments and that is exactly how development works. People need to be a little more realistic in their expectations as far as Buell and the RR are concerned Jeremy is a very good development rider....If the Germans will listen to him..... (There was a humorous story about this related to a few people at homecoming) | ||
| Jimidan |
I think there is a misunderstanding on some of the "other boards" that anyone on here really gives a good two patooties what they think about the RR program. Who are THEY, anyway? Those folks are not Buell customers, and never will be regardless of what Erik comes out with. Some of them are downright anti-American products, if you ask me. It is like they don't like anything made in America, and for sure not a motorcycle. It could be that they are just brand snobs...kinda like some Harley owners we all know!  They are always going to be there, so why not ignore them? Most of them can't ride their overpowered crotch rockets to anywhere near its potential, and those that can are certifiably crazy because they do it on the street. I think there is also a misconception by some who have posted on here regarding Buell selling 50 of the XBRR as a turnkey race bike that they will only have to change the oil between races and it will last the whole year. I go to a few of these races and I can tell you that I have not talked to a single rider, owner, dealer or whomever, that are asking for their money back while they wait. Take Mutant Racer, for instance. What the heck has he been saying ever since they learned that Liberty HD/Buell was getting an RR? Shucks, he is practically crowing from the top of the garage. That is the norm, and not the exception. Almost every, if not every one of the 50 buyers have a Buell racebike now or have had a Buell racebike in the past, so they know what they are getting and what to expect. They know what they are getting is far superior to anything they could build themselves, but it is a Buell. I think it is so nice of you'all to care so deeply about the welfare of those poor, hoodwinked privateer souls who bought the Buell RR spiel...hook, line and sinker. I am sure that they are comforted by your outpouring of concern for their welfare and best interests. Awww, just messin' with'ya! If you can dish it out, you can take it...right? jimidan | ||
| Milar |
>Most of them can't ride their overpowered >crotch rockets to anywhere near its >potential, This has been my experience. Slow in the corners and fast on the straights to catch up. An acquitance told me he bought a 1000RR instead of a Buell because the Buell was "too slow." He also said I rode too fast and he was riding 130 mph to keep up. I don't think I ever rode above 85. But he fell so far behind in the corners he needed the horsepower to keep up. M | ||
| Soloyosh |
So does McWilliams' flat denial of any BMW work mean he'll be available at Laguna? If this is a development period for the bike, why not sign a rider/crew to develop the thing instead of doing the weekend thing? That's what burns me more than anything. At the level of racing they want to compete in (AMA FX), if you want to run with the other factories that have dedicated teams of mechanics, riders, engineers and support, you can't do it on a consistent basis by just "weekending" your development and testing. I personally think Buell is doing a disservice to the XB-RR by the way they have handled AMA FX this year. Buell says they're dealer bikes, privateer machines. But if you check the pits at the races they're staffed by factory folks. It's time for Buell to piss or get off the pot. Make em factory bikes with REAL dedicated factory support and budget, or shut down the FX operation all together. I'm a Buell fan and owner, but the XB-RR saga starting to sound an awful lot like the VR1000 program: by the time the bike is developed to its potential, the other factories have already passed it by. Cheers Brett | ||
| M1combat |
Sorry Solo... You're wrong. You won't see a dedicated "factory" effort with the "RR". They'll support the privateers. They'll put the "factory" money into contingency. They'll learn from all the teams campaigning. They'll constantly make improvement. They'll get there. These guys are REAL racers. Apparently born and bred back when race cars didn't have sponsors. When people raced for racing. When Le-Mans was thought of... When the Isle of Mann was dreamed up. RACERS. Buell builds the bikes... Other people race them. It's a perfectly valid and workable model. If Buell decides to compete at some higher level... WSBK, MotoGP etc... Yeah... we'll probably see a factory team., maybe not . Short of that though, it's up to the little guys. Works for me. Make it a factory effort or shut down the operation all together? You don't get it. It's exactly THAT mindset that killed the VR... Not from the company, but from the fans. The fans MUST get behind the idea or it won't make sense for the company to stroke their own ego. Go think about it, then come back and we'll talk... And stop voting for yourself... | ||
| M1combat |
"If this is a development period for the bike, why not sign a rider/crew to develop the thing instead of doing the weekend thing? " What the hell do you think Jeremy is doing? He's a development rider. Probably an expensive one... He'll give feedback to the engineers, they'll try to incorporate what he says withing their design goals and the bike will take shape. Why hire him to run another race when you're still working on what he said and things that happened from the last race? Especially when BMW is competing for his time as well, but not competing with Buell on the track? They have the correct plan... Sorry you only see that they aren't doing what the Japanese teams do... "Buell says they're dealer bikes, privateer machines. But if you check the pits at the races they're staffed by factory folks." Exactly... They're learning. They're working. They're making progress. They're realizing dreams. They're supporting the privateers . That's the right way to do it, and the AMA likes it . The only reason the repli-racer crowd bitches is because they need a reason... Not because there IS a reason yet. What will the future hold? I don't know. The entire program could crumble and fold. If so, I'll be selling my Mustang to get an RR and it'll sit in a garage until it's worth enough to trade it for a house. I can't ride the thing for what it's worth anyway, so it really does make sense. The bike could become the choice bike for privateers in every class it's legal. I see that as being more likely. Look at Porsche... If you don't know your race history though... forget about it. I'll just say this... Everywhere that Porsches are allowed to race they fill the grid out nicely. They don't win all the races... Why? Well... Porsches handle well for ONE. They're also pretty easy to work on. They aren't as expensive to race as, say... a 550 Maranello or a Viper or a Lister. They are very reliable. A lot of people don't like Porsches... Me included. They're GREAT cars... They're just not my style. | ||
| Soloyosh |
The problem is... the FANS already think it's a factory team. The trailer says Buell Racing on it. All the bikes show up in the same trailer. There's one team manager from the factory. The mechanics are all from the factory. They've even got a dedicated Pirelli guy. So to the guy that shows up to watch the race, it sure looks like a factory effort. Because of that the uninformed discount the bikes as poor because the "factory team" can't even make em work. I think they're great bikes, that could run at the front of FX with dedicated team and riders. The "dealer team" model may work for CCS, etc. but not for FX. The amount of resources to get to the front row and stay there is something only a factory can support and the results bear this out, especially since FX stepped away from the 1000+ fours to the new engine rules. | ||
| Soloyosh |
As far as I can tell McWilliams is per diem with Buell. He's got a contract with BMW. So if dates conflict, the Germans win. Besides, what interest does Warr's, being a UK dealership, have in running "their" rider in a US Championship other than the D200? Me thinks Jeremy is paid by Buell, not by Warr's. So if he's a Pro rider, being paid by a factory (real money, not contingency), where exatly does the privateer part work into the equation? | ||
| Blake |
Someone is getting petty with the post ratings. LOL. Great discussion guys! I'm really enjoying reading it. Both views have validity. | ||
| Soloyosh |
Its not me, I swear... Can you even vote for yourself? I did give you post a five just cause its a cool place youve got here to have neat discussions like this. Cheers Brett | ||
| M1combat |
Why do the un-informed masses matter? This year especially... Next year... Maybe... I didn't say anything about a "dealer team"... I said privateers. Of course, dealer teams are privateers but I would hate to see the RR relegated to a bike that only HD dealers want to run. That would suck. Not to bash the dealers that do run them... Don't get me wrong. I'd just like to see someone like Michael Jordan pick one up . Maybe Tiger Woods... Maybe Donald Fricken Trump . Hey... Anyone know Jay Leno? Tell him to hit the track... I hear he LOVES his XB. He may even be able to afford it. He's a fan of the industry. In any case... I see your point, but it's moot IMO. Buell will do what Buell wants to do (and IMO they are doing the right things) and it'll all come out in the wash. You think that the only testing they're doing is on the track with privateers over seemingly random weekends? That's very un-likely... I think they have a couple of "fairly capable " test riders in house... They have one of the better test riders in the industry (Think "Chuck Yeager" sort of) that has a great deal of MotoGP experience giving them feedback as well as the privateers that they're building the bike for. All this said... You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see HoSuk-YamaKaw adopt the same method that Buell is using. I'd like to see ASRA, CCS and WERA on TV. If you did that you'd at LEAST see huge contingency funds paid by the factories to a lot of privateers. THAT would promote RACING as opposed to BRANDING. HoSukYamaKaw doesn't want that though... See, I've been a fan of racing for a long time. Even classic stuff. You ever watch Fangio come through Eau-Rouge in a car with no wings? GREAT stuff my friend. The AMA is nothing more than a sanctioning body WRT racing. I don't think they do a real bang up job (neither does the FIA for that matter...). Look at the "lower" classes though. In every discipline... It's better racing. Why don't they show it on TV? There's not as much money in it. Buell seems to be a company that's in it for the racing. They need to make a pile of money first so they can develop a bike that's competitive, but they seem to want to allow people to go racing competitively and have less to worry about. It'll work as long as they stick with it. I don't think that Erik is really the type to give up... so I think it'll work . Of course it looks "factory" right now... They're still developing and they've decided to do the developing is such a way that they get lots of testing... In house and in the real world... How can it get better? WRT McWilliams being "Warr's" rider... I think that someone at Warr's knows McWilliams. I don't think he's "Warr's" rider as such. He's a test rider for Buell, and because the hookup was made possible by someone at Warr's, he rides a bike with their logo... | ||
| M1combat |
Yep , you can. Just gave myself a one to save the trouble for whoever is voting my other "ones". . /EDIT - To fix Hill-Billy sentence structure... Now it's just a little bit red-neck... (Message edited by M1Combat on June 15, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
"So if he's a Pro rider, being paid by a factory (real money, not contingency), where exatly does the privateer part work into the equation?" Good question... It got me thinking... McWilliams isn't a "Factory Effort" as such. I say that because a "Factory Effort" is typically aimed at a championship (not that I think Buell would turn one down ). The factory effort using McWilliams (as I see it) is aimed at development as opposed to points. | ||
| M1combat |
Damn... Someone is real quick with voting my ones . I feel special... | ||
| Soloyosh |
The un-informed masses matter because all the press releases on the XB-RR haven't been in Fuell, they've been in the mainstream moto media. Other people beside Buell owners have been watching this. These other people are potential customers. In none of the releases is anything said about "log on to BadWeb for the backstory." All I'm saying is, sign McWilliams and Crevier to an actual contract, put together a full time team to support them, race at every FX race, go to all the tests the rest of the factory teams go to, organize your own test dates. Do it the way you have to to win. I've worked one year on a pro AMA team and it damn near destroyed my family. I was gone to tests or races 42 weeks out of the year. When we weren't gone we were at the shop putting in 14 hour days. I couldn't handle it and moved to the R&D dept. That's the kind of resources it took took make sure our guys were on the box. Anything less and you are doing the bikes and riders a disservice. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it damn well better be a duck or its gonna drown. Cheers Brett | ||
| Davegess |
<all> I don't think Buell want's a full factory effort (frankly there is no way in h e l l they can afford to do it; don't tell me HD can, they are not HD). They really want to build a bike a privateer can buy and race. ALL the bikes raced so far have been private bikes. Warr's pays Jeremey's fee. Buell was able to arrange some very limited sponsorship money to help defray some of the coat to the dealers. They did provide a ton of people (people who for the most part came and worked for free) at Daytona but not a lot at the other races. I don't think Erik really cares if the general racing public thinks it is a factory effort or not. He wants a privateer to be able to run a competitive race bike. I don't think they have any dreams or hopes that the RR can beat the factory bikes in FX on a regular basis. I think they will be happy if they can get some podiums and win the occasional FX race. Anyone who thinks a $30,000 bike and beat a $300,000 bike regularly is not quite grounded in reality. |
