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Spatten1
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:52 am: | 
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How about those of us that would like to buy an American bike that has a great chassis AND a strong engine?
I don't mean R1 strong. How about Triumph 675 strong. Something with character that is at least somewhat competitive as far as performance.
Maybe I should buy the Triumph and shut up, but I'd rather have an American designed bike. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 02:00 am: |
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Brucelee... You CAN go R1 hunting. You just need to pick your battleground wisely (hint... If it has a straight stretch, it's not your battleground  ). There's nothing dishonorable about that at ALL... Read Sun Tsu's "The Art of War" . The armies of the orient would circle each other for days attempting to get the high ground advantage. Their high ground is straight, ours is curved . Works for me .
The XB chassis works. Would I like more power... Of course I would . I'll build it though. I'm OK with that . |
Sp2pilot
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:24 am: |
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You are dellusional if you believe you are going to be faster then a k6 GSXR anything (600/750/1000) on a twisty technical road.
I race, Ialso instruct. I have seen dozens of XB12's on the track and none of them are carrying more corner speed, nor are they able to carry more entry speed.
So exactly how is the Buell going to pick its Battle and win its "war"?
Maybe you are beating the Inline 4's because you are a better rider then the bikes you are riding with.
Equal riders on the bikes head to head and a GSXR 600/750 will turn into a tiny dot in front of you as it bends into the next turn, it does not need a straight to beat you. It will do it with lighter weight and better engineering.
Sorry but the emporer has no clothes |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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"Sorry but the emporer has no clothes"
This is exactly why you are indeed a bore to deal with. Also, you can't spell either!
Go read the article in Bike magazine as to how well the Buell handles.
In terms of power, everyone who bought the Buell knew what the power is, just like other Vtwins. So, who should be complaining?
If you want an inline 4 go by a Jap bike. That is fine. I promise I will not come on your forum and point out how incredibly dull those bikes are, that they sound like sewing machines, that they all look the same, etc.
To each his own.
Be away, TROLL. |
Sp2pilot
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:06 pm: |
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So if I have this figured out,..
Buell riders only allow comparisons between them selves and non supported competition??
If I point out that a member here posted that a Buell will outperform a different design in a specific environment. I in turn said nope, not true
I am then attacked for being a Troll, a bad spelling troll at that.
Uh BruceLee, I am sure you are the better man as you can spell with authority,(Insert Sarcastic Icon here)
I like it here. I get to sit in on conversations about the superiority of a Design by its un-biased owners. He he he
Heaven forbid anyone actually brings up facts or figures as there is no place for that type of information in this topic.
I am going to change my handle to Jackie Chann,. Everyone knows that Jackie could kick Bruce Lees butt
Sarcasm is a total waste on some people. |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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"Uh BruceLee, I am sure you are the better man as you can spell with authority"
Well, there is that, plus a number of other things as well!
Glad you finally got something right here.
Thanks Troll! |
Baasinator
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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sp2pilot is not a troll. I own a XB9R that I absolutely love riding on the street, and I don't pretend it is something it's not. This board is a good source of information, but I don't see why everybody is so sensitive about Buells! They are what they are, and they are improving. Hopefully the XB-RR program will improve also... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 05:37 pm: |
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I don't pretend it's something it's not either...
SP2... I didn't pick a race track. For a specific reason no less. The XB is a street bike. Outright speed is not the only factor Just like anything else... it's a combination of things. A racetrack has too much straight and the Buell needs to be built to keep up (hence the CCS rules...), we all know that. However... Put the Buell in it's element (a DEEP twisty canyon road... you know... with bumps, lines, road snakes, cattle guards, broken pavement...) and the Buell makes shorter work of it than bikes with more relaxed geometry.
See, I have the pleasure of living about 1/2 of a mile from a VERY fine road. A lot like the Dragon. It's 11 miles and a comparable number of turns. The other side of the loop is more open. I would never even suspect that I could keep up with an IL4600 or greater on the back side of The Spars. On the tight side... No problem at all. It's not a racetrack... It's much tighter and for the entire 11 miles there only maybe about 300 yards of straight stretch. All of it just after and before very sharp turns (marked 15). I'm certainly not going to say that it's all bike though... Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there are thousands of people who could hand me my ass on a silver platter on a step-through... All I'm saying is that the XB works exceedingly well on the funnest roads I've ever been on. Other bikes work great too I'm sure. The problem is that they sacrifice 0-100 performance for 100-150 performance. The absolute TOP speed on the spars is 105 on an XB12 (someone better than me could probably make 112 or so), but even on a 1000 you can't go MUCH faster than that... You'll need to hit the brakes earlier anyway...
I don't remember which magazine it was... They took two liter bikes out on a technical canyon road and used an XB12R as a chase bike. The liter bikes were an R1 and a GSXR I think... They said they switched bikes a number of times and were completely baffled by the fact that they couldn't keep the Buell behind the liter bikes.
Bike magazine rated it #1 in their top 50 shootout... second was a damn RS250. That said... pay attention to the "remove the emotion" section. The XB12R placed second to the 999R (yeah, a ~$20K bike) and the only category it lost out in was drive out... How much drive out do you think can be built reliably with the difference in cost? Enuf I'd bet  .
I'm not bashing anyones bike. I like lots of bikes. My next will most likely be a 916, but I can pretty much promise you that it'll be kept in the garage and the XB will get the miles. |
Sp2pilot
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 07:07 pm: |
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Fair enough
I can totally believe the friendly nature of the XB relates to high confidence in flicking it in and out of a super technical road with debri and uneven surfaces. However I will not concede it is the outright fastest. It is just not in the cards for it to turn in or maintain as high cornerspeed as a Lighter Bike. It is just physics. The steering geometry and short wheelbase are not going to generate higher mid corner speed to overcome the limits of mass and traction.
What you might be saying is that the XB serves up more feedback and a rider gains a higher level of confidence and thus goes faster on it. I concur. In fact confidence is the one ingrediant that comes from riding a fun motorcycle on a challanging road.
This is the one thing I see in Buell riders that are on the XB. Riders truly enjoying their bikes.
Now Imagine prying the anchor of a motor out and slipping soemething lighter and more powerful into that fun little bike. Something with the performance to match the handling.
Ah yes, to dream |
Mcgiver
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 07:47 pm: |
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"Now Imagine prying the anchor of a motor out and slipping soemething lighter and more powerful into that fun little bike. Something with the performance to match the handling. " From my experience this would increace the XBs speed on a track or more open road, and would make it more difficult and possibly slower on a tight road. That ancient anchor of an engine is an important aspect of the ability to ride quickly on a technical road. Brian |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 08:01 pm: |
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"The steering geometry and short wheelbase are not going to generate higher mid corner speed to overcome the limits of mass and traction. "
Yes they can... Especially combined with the nature of a twin (that being the nature to use the rear tire more efficiently) so as to have higher exit speed. The geometry (and I don't mean just rake/trail/wheelbase/swingarm vs. rake relationship/etc...) will allow more maneuverability at the SAME speeds. You can therefore go a little faster and have the same maneuverability. WRT just plain having more traction... Think about the power pulses being "nicer" to the contact patch on the rear and the reduced un-sprung mass allowing a higher suspension frequency on the front. The XB uses it's available traction more efficiently on all types of pavement, but the larger the "grain" of the pavement the better it gets. It's a fact. It's a relatively small advantage indeed, but it's there. There are a LOT of points to consider when evaluating motorcycle dynamics as they pertain to corner speed. More than I know I'm sure .
You mention that it would be nice to use a lighter more powerful engine... Well to do that I believe you would need to relax the geometry a little bit due to the reduction in gyroscopic precession associated with smaller flywheels... Granted... It's an exceedingly stable bike so you could probably get away with it and use a steering damper. I like the torque though...
So... why did Bike magazine rate the RS250's corner speed as a 9, and the XB12R as a 10? How come that other magazine rated the XB as the fastest mid-corner speed against even a Husky SM? How come the XBR's (not the RR's) have consistently made faster mid-corner speeds than the other FX race bikes? Please advise... It's not all about mass... Geometry can go a long way in making sure you're using the available traction circle efficiently. Besides... We all know the king of RACING is exit speed. That's NOT the king of the ROAD . You don't ride to the edge on the road so exactly where the edge is isn't as important... What IS more important is handling. Handling is not equal to grip or speed. That said... a LOT of motorcycle mags and articles have indeed said that the mid-corner speed of the XB12 is about as fast as they've experienced... |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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I seem to recall MO stating they were deceived by the Buells. The lower rev made
them think they were going slower, but on their favorite stretch of asphalt they were
all consistently faster on the firebolt than they were on their favorite repli-racers.
I think it was Burns that stated this. Their chosen road is very tight and technical,
they KNOW this road and it comes down to corner speed.
BDWD......... Biker Dads With Daughters est.2006
defending our sweet little girls from those bad bad boys. You're not one of THEM are you?
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M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 03:23 pm: |
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I have to admit I don't read MO as much as I'd like but yeah, I think they're the ones that said that.
For anyone wondering...
To really bring out the handling of an XBR you need to swap the tires to Metzeler M3's, Diablo Corsa's, Pilot Powers, etc... Something with a nice tall 180 profile. I believe it was Wyckedflesh that did the measuring and found that the Dunlop 180 that comes stock is more like a 190. Going to a "better" tire also removes the tendency to stand under braking.
I put "better" in quotes because if you hang WAY off and exercise proper technique the original tires aren't half bad. They just require more work for the rewards. |
Daves
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 03:34 pm: |
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I thought it was a 9R that kept loosing the other bikes in their test in the twisty part of the ride?
I do know that with me on the bike, the XB12R I ride does carry more corner speed than my other bike, a Mille R.
Part of it is me, I agree but the Firebolt just feels better in the corners,therefore I can go faster.
Buell of Appleton WI
1-866-757-1651
ask for Dave in the sales dept
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Sloppy
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 04:09 pm: |
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There's no point in comparing the street Buell to a super sport bike. It's like comparing a Mercedes to a Porsh. They're both great cars, but one is meant to go travelling, the other raced. If I wanted a buzzing inline 4 or a desmo-nightmare twin, then I would have to constantly fiddle with chain wear, poor gas mileage, plastic wrap and valve adjustments, ...
Buell makes a great street bike with good power, great handling, great brakes, easy on insurance, simple to maintain and excellent gas mileage.
If I wanted a super sports bike, I would have purchased an RS250...
In regards to the AMA Roadrace rulebook, I may be wrong, but anyone notice that the ONLY series that Buell is allowed to compete in is in FX... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 04:26 pm: |
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That's because they want FX to be a great race class . I REALLY wish more manufacturers would hop in.
It may very well have been a 9 Dave... I just remember the gist of it. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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We tested lat week at Bruntingthrope in the UK. This is an ex USAF B-52 base and is used by most of the UK Auto industry and press for testing all sorts of vehicles, from buses to formula one cars.
The test last week was carried out by Performance Bikes magazine and featured datalogging by a very clever GPS based unit to give exact lap times, corner speeds etc. The same test track is used for every bike, and the track features multi surface changes, different corner profiles and cambers, so is a good approximation of real roads. All the bikes are ridden by the same rider (an independant journalist) so as to minimise the variables.
Our Ulysses based race bike lapped in exactly the same time as a Ducati 999R, despite giving away 30+bhp and at least 20mph top speed. It was also quicker than the Triumph 675 and a bunch of other sports bikes. The tester initially didn't think the lap times for the XB were particularly quick, until he saw the data logging results! His exact words were 'that bike is deceptively quick!'
Our bike hasn't got any special 'bells & whistles' in the engine department (flowed heads and 12:1 Wiseco pistons), and even has the stock Ulysses cams still fitted. It has a few trick chassis components that do make a big improvement over the stock bike (which was also tested at the same time).
Notable amongst these are the Yamaha R1 forks with Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 cartridges, R1 brakes and ISR radial master cylinder at the front, and an AST fully adjustable shock at the rear. Handling is amazing and braking is absolutely second to none. At the risk of upsetting the ZTL supporters club once more, braking is far better than stock with this setup. This was reinforced by the fact that the stock XB12 bikes front brake had overheated and failed after 3 laps of the same test track on the same day. The stock XB12 was not new and had previously been used as a track day instructors bike, however the pads appeared to be in good condition at the start of the test and the bike was only one year old. In the same way, our brakes had not been specially serviced and had completed 3 full race meetings on the same set of SBS dual carbon pads.
I would again point out that I had nothing to do with these tests other than to deliver and maintain our bike while it was there, so had no influence on any of the results or observations that the journo's came to.
The full results will be featured in PB in a coming issue.
As an end note, and to put the whole thing in context, also present on the same day was the KTM 990 Superduke. This was in standard road trim and was a full 3 seconds quicker per lap than our race bike! Everyone that rode it came away with a massive grin on their face and just couldn't believe what a complete package it was. This surely must be the benchmark that Buell must judge any new model by? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 05:04 pm: |
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Very nice . WRT the ZTL thing (you knew I'd say something )... I've accepted the fact for a while that the ZTL can overheat on a track that uses the brakes heavily... The new eight piston caliper addresses that issue quite well from what I'm told.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing the review that includes the stock bike.
That said... With the new caliper McWilliams doesn't seem to have any trouble at all on the brakes (just not for a full race distance yet  ...) |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 05:37 pm: |
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I have no doubt that the 8 piston caliper will have solved all of the problems experienced with the ZTL on the track. Unfortunately this option just wasn't available to us even if we could have afforded it, so we had to find an affordable alternative.
Our entire front end with the exception of the custom made triple trees (US$450) and the fork cartridges (US$1500) was sourced on Ebay, and the brake calipers cost us just US$80 for the pair including shipping from the USA, the bargain of the whole build |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 06:12 pm: |
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From the MO article:
quote:This time, we set out upon the Firebolt and the lovely new Ducati Supersport, with an `02 Yamaha R1 as chase vehicle because it was there. Lo and behold, upon reaching our favorite set of curves once again (which we all know by now like the dorsal surfaces of our own John Thomases), not only did the little Buell draw away from the Ducati, it actually gapped the Yamaha as well--a 139-horsepower chariot of the gods that weighs not much more! What the?! We swapped bikes several times, field-sobriety-tested each other repeatedly, and the same scenario kept repeating itself while Mini kept up a steady rant about the Buell STILL being an ill-handling piglet, and how could this be?
Well, all I can tell you after all my years of riding motorcycles, is that strange things happen sometimes. For one thing, a bit of familiarization with the Firebolt has taught us how it needs to be ridden. If we found ourselves at first running out of revs (the Buell's done at 7500 rpm), we've since learned that the little dear pulls just as hard in the next lower gear, doing so lets you get back on the gas even sooner--and no bike on the market lets you get the throttle open as early as the Firebolt does. In theory, we've always known that a short wheelbase is a good thing. In practice, the Buell's stubbiness makes clear why that's so: It finishes a given corner while the other bikes are still turning, and by the time the R1 is pointed in the right direction and its pilot feels safe enough to whack open the throttle, the Buell has already scooted halfway down the straight. The Yamaha, of course, closes the gap a bit, but here comes the next corner, the Buell flicks into it quicker--and if there are more corners than straights, you should be getting the picture by now. The Buell's extremely short wheelbase (aided by its superior "mass centralization") means it gets to full lean almost instantly and needs to spend less time there.
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Brucelee
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 06:27 pm: |
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This can't be true. Sp2 above says so.
These riders must be on the take or smoking something! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 06:31 pm: |
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Yeah... That was the 9 then . |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 06:33 pm: |
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Way to go Matt! A stock bike heading for the track should absolutely have brand new pads and a thorough brake system fluid replacement/bleeding. Also, if you can obtain a set of Nissin 804 pads, that will help significantly too. All together, it may well have prevented the problems noted with the stock bike/brake system. I dunno for sure though.
Great effort on your part and great report too. Thanks.
Blake |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 07:50 pm: |
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The Buell/Nissin 8-piston caliper will be readily available this summer for racing use. It'll bolt onto any XB front end. For about what Trojan paid for his front end (he left some gaps in his prices), you could have a full XBRR front end with Ohlins -- and less weight sprung and unsprung.
Jens has been running an 8-piston caliper on his Hillbilly-Motors endurance racer recently. Perhaps he would describe his experience with it here? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 01:02 am: |
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By "full" XBRR front end I assume you are not including the magnesium wheel? |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 03:48 am: |
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Hi Anony,
If the XB-RR front end had been available in October last year when we started building the bike then we would of course love to have used it.
We did have other reasons for changing the front end in addition to the brakes. As our racer started life as a Ulysses we needed to source a new set of forks to replace the long travel items anyway, so decided to fit the R1 items for a number of reasons:
1. They were cheap and readily available when we needed them.
2. There is a lot of tuning advice and parts available in the UK for these forks already, and spares are very easy to source even at the track.
3. Replacement wheels are more readily available than Buell items.
4. We prefer to use the twin disc brakes over the single ZTL.
The total price that we paid for our complete front end was:
Forks - £300 (US$500)
2 x front wheels - £300 (US$500)
4 x brake discs (Braking) - £350 (US$600)
triple trees - £250 (US$450)
brake calipers - £45 (US$80)
ISR Master cylinder - £175 (US$315)
One of the front wheels is a used stock R1 (wet wheels) and the other is a forged aluminium Braking item weighing only slightly more than the stockBuell wheel. The fork cartridges and brake pads are sponsored items so have cost us nothing.
This makes a complete grand total of GBP1420 for everything, or around GBP300 less than a bare set of Ohlins R&T forks here in England.
There is a slight increase in unsprung weight over the stock setup, although we felt that the advantages have been worth it. Having shed a lot of weight from the stock bike our bike now weighs in at 198 kg fully fuelled and including the starter motor, charging system and stock battery, so there is more to lose if we wish.
This isn't about trying to score points or denegrate the ZTL system that the XB-RR uses over there, but that there are many different ways to skin a cat |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:07 pm: |
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"This makes a complete grand total of GBP1420 for everything, or around GBP300 less than a bare set of Ohlins R&T forks here in England. "
But what do those AK20 carts cost? I'm not sponsored. I would need to either pay for your setup (the whole thing), buy the RR front end (The whole thing) or stick with what I've got and use the money elsewhere... |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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The Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 fork cartridges would normally cost GBP800 (US$1500) fitted and set up by Reactive Suspension here in the UK. I'm not sure what the price would be in the US from Traxxion direct.
Even the Ohlins Road & Track front end would still need setting up for the individual rider.
Maybe Anony can verify this, but the press here report that Jeremy McWilliams had K-Tech in the UK modify his RR front forks, and carried his forks as hand baggage to Daytona with him.
(Message edited by trojan on June 01, 2006) |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 01:42 pm: |
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All forks need to be setup for the individual rider Matt...
~$3945 then, would be roughly the cost of your setup (plus pads...).
How about that "RR" front end Anony? Any guestimates? I'm not looking for a quote by any means, but what do you think? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 02:05 pm: |
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"How about that "RR" front end Anony? Any guestimates? I'm not looking for a quote by any means, but what do you think?"
Very, very roughly about $3500 retail, without the mag front wheel. I may be missing some small parts, so it could be slightly more. It will accept a standard XB wheel and disc for a couple of pound weight penalty. If you have some kind of sponsorship arrangement with a Buell dealer that allows you to buy race parts at closer to dealer net, you might be able to get it for considerably less. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 03:10 pm: |
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Great... It'll cost me $5800 . Maybe Dave will do the 10% . |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 05:05 pm: |
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Jeremy indeed had some K-Tech modified forks at Daytona, but found that they did not work at all and ran the stock ones. I know the press stated differently, but the reality is exactly what I stated. It's not a knock on K-Tech; I'm sure they could do an excellent job dialing in forks if they were on site and worked with the bike more. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 05:14 pm: |
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Well... It looks like SP2 waved the Buell thread by . I don't blame him really . It's tough to concentrate when you have a snarley V2 breathing down your neck . |
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